Stimming vs. fidgeting?

[Assumption]

Originally Posted by ana futura

Because you are always so gracious Fortune!

Like when you asked me about the wet hair, you were genuinely curious. There are social protocols that I insist don't exist, but it's because I think they're pointless and stupid. Deep down I suppose I know they do, but I don't want them to.

I argue for the sake of argument, I play devil's advocate. When people with ASD argue it seems like they really "believe" the content of their argument, and use facts to back up their argument. Me- I'll argue for one thing today and the opposite tomorrow, and make stuff up to support either argument.

I'm really interested to know what you think of this assessment.

I am interested too because this is like the first thing... ever... that I've been different to you on! I generally feel very certain of my position and will argue myself blue over it.

Example. I was 16. Physics teacher told us that light is slower through non-vacuum mediums. I thought I KNEW that this was false (my dad studies relativity and I'd grown up hearing about this stuff). Turns out I was WRONG. Did that stop me from arguing about it? No. ****** off the whole class, it did.

Another example. I was 13. Maths teacher told us that a billion has 12 zeros. Now, I was certain that it has 9. I argued about it for ages, held up the class, and when I got home got my dad to write me a note to prove the teacher wrong - this was VERY important to me, apparently! (The answer is, it depends on what country you live in - 1 billion is either 1 thousand million or 1 million million). I'm pretty sure I was right regarding NZ though!

I haven't gotten any easier to live with. You should see me when my wife forgets to put salt in the pasta and then shrugs and says no biggie. OK, after 10 years together I've slowly learned to deal with this one. But it took a long time and a lot of frankly embarrasingly bitter arguments over salt in pasta for me to get over it.

[Assumption]

One thing I wonder about the social thing. I've read Baron-Cohen's "the science of evil," one of his books about the zero degrees of empathy hypothesis. He seems to think that people on the autism spectrum are impaired both in terms of their ability to recognize emotion and in their motivation to respond appropriately. I wonder if I'm just impaired in the latter? I hope that doesn't mean I'm a psychopath.

[Assumption]

First I paint myself as ADHD + ODD as a child. Then I suggest that maybe I'm a psychopath... I guess Barkley will be nodding.

[ana futura]

I often think I have psychopathic potential as well, but I'd probably kill a person for harming an animal before I'd harm an animal, so that has to count for something right?

Although... I have been known to throw a cat (lovingly! on the bed! Weeee!) At least I'm no where near as bad as you Sylvie's Husband the cat thrower!

And don't get me started on the empathy thing. I don't get it. I'm confused. Search Futura Empathy and you'll find a hundred posts I'm sure.

[ana futura]

Originally Posted by Assumption

I am interested too because this is like the first thing... ever... that I've been different to you on! I generally feel very certain of my position and will argue myself blue over it.

Example. I was 16. Physics teacher told us that light is slower through non-vacuum mediums. I thought I KNEW that this was false (my dad studies relativity and I'd grown up hearing about this stuff). Turns out I was WRONG. Did that stop me from arguing about it? No. ****** off the whole class, it did.

Another example. I was 13. Maths teacher told us that a billion has 12 zeros. Now, I was certain that it has 9. I argued about it for ages, held up the class, and when I got home got my dad to write me a note to prove the teacher wrong - this was VERY important to me, apparently! (The answer is, it depends on what country you live in - 1 billion is either 1 thousand million or 1 million million). I'm pretty sure I was right regarding NZ though!

I haven't gotten any easier to live with. You should see me when my wife forgets to put salt in the pasta and then shrugs and says no biggie. OK, after 10 years together I've slowly learned to deal with this one. But it took a long time and a lot of frankly embarrasingly bitter arguments over salt in pasta for me to get over it.

Actually, I do all this sort of nonsense...This mindfulness meditation stuff I've been doing has changed the way I argue. It's easier for me to give up, and actually see how fickle I am, and how I'll BS. In my youth I was a lot more indignant.

Also, I kept getting proved wrong all the time. Rather than learn how to argue correctly, I've decided that acknowledging I'm full of it is easier. There are only so many times you can be told you are full of it before you give in.

[ana futura]

I'm so full of it on the arguing bit. This is post medicated me talking, all this insight is changing my sense of self! AGGGHHHHH!

[Drewbacca]

I tend to think of fidgeting as the inability to get comfortable... just my 2cents.

[Assumption]

Originally Posted by ana futura

At least I'm no where near as bad as you Sylvie's Husband the cat thrower!

And don't get me started on the empathy thing. I don't get it. I'm confused. Search Futura Empathy and you'll find a hundred posts I'm sure.

Haha, yeah. Sometimes I can't tell that I'm angry, actually. I've noticed that one of the warning signs of my losing my temper is that I start telling myself not to get frustrated. But at that stage, I don't actually FEEL frustrated, so it's a weird kind of thought. And then, an hour later, suddenly I get really p**y over something really little. Clearly I was in a foul mood all along, but I didn't really feel that way.

Originally Posted by ana futura

There are only so many times you can be told you are full of it before you give in.

Neverrrrrr!

[Assumption]

Originally Posted by Drewbacca

I tend to think of fidgeting as the inability to get comfortable... just my 2cents.

Well, if that's what it is.... I DO do that from time to time. For instance, I shift around a lot in bed. But pretty much none of the stuff above falls into that category (that is, unless you use a really broad definition of 'comfortable,' and then, maybe).

[Fortune]

Originally Posted by ana futura

Because you are always so gracious Fortune!

Like when you asked me about the wet hair, you were genuinely curious. There are social protocols that I insist don't exist, but it's because I think they're pointless and stupid. Deep down I suppose I know they do, but I don't want them to.

There are social protocols that I think are pointless and stupid, but I don't so much insist they don't exist as wish they didn't. I do tend to ignore them if I don't see the point of following them.

I argue for the sake of argument, I play devil's advocate. When people with ASD argue it seems like they really "believe" the content of their argument, and use facts to back up their argument. Me- I'll argue for one thing today and the opposite tomorrow, and make stuff up to support either argument.

I can't speak for everyone, but I hate devil's advocate style arguments. My instinct is that it's manipulative and deceitful, and it really frustrates me. I realize that people who do it are not trying to be manipulative or deceitful automatically (although I think some who do it really are both of those things). It's sort of like finding out I was arguing with someone who turned out to be lying for the sake of creating the argument in the first place.

Doesn't mean I don't like discussions, although someone might perceive an argument as heated long before I do - the other day, someone started insulting me in the middle of a discussion for what seemed to be no reason and it took me a bit to work out why he did that.

There are some people

I'm really interested to know what you think of this assessment.

I think it's an accurate assessment of me. It may very well be an accurate assessment of other people on the spectrum, but I do not know. I do tend to think that my attitude is formed by my perceptions and my perceptions are impacted by being autistic.

[Fortune]

Originally Posted by Assumption

One thing I wonder about the social thing. I've read Baron-Cohen's "the science of evil," one of his books about the zero degrees of empathy hypothesis. He seems to think that people on the autism spectrum are impaired both in terms of their ability to recognize emotion and in their motivation to respond appropriately. I wonder if I'm just impaired in the latter? I hope that doesn't mean I'm a psychopath.

I would take that book's characterization of autism with a grain of salt.

Actually, I'd just take the entire book with a grain of salt. It's overly simplistic, he relates urban legends as personal anecdotes, and I think his description of the various conditions is off, and sometimes extreme.

[Fortune]

Originally Posted by ana futura

And don't get me started on the empathy thing. I don't get it. I'm confused. Search Futura Empathy and you'll find a hundred posts I'm sure.

One of the reasons that I find SBC's description of autistic people and empathy to be dodgy is that it simply makes no sense to me.

I mean, it is true that I have constructed elaborate systems of rules and guidelines to describe what I see as right and wrong, and I tend to stick to them fairly rigidly. I just think there are big gaping holes in his writing on the topic.

[Assumption]

Originally Posted by Fortune

I would take that book's characterization of autism with a grain of salt.

Actually, I'd just take the entire book with a grain of salt. It's overly simplistic, he relates urban legends as personal anecdotes, and I think his description of the various conditions is off, and sometimes extreme.

To be honest, I was mightily disappointed by the book as a whole. It seemed clearly oversimplistic. And given that my old neuropsyc tutor seemed to be a fan of Baron-Cohen, I was quite disappointed.

I think the problem with neuroscience is that people just get... too easily impressed by the pretty diagrams of the brain. I regularly find myself thinking, yes, it happened in the brain, where else could it have happened? If you take the neurology out of the book (and you really can - as far as I can tell it's not necessary to get the point across) you're left with what really amounts to a short essay. And it is such a partial explanation at best!

The next book I read after the Science of Evil was Pinker's The Better Angels of our Nature, which only overlaps a little with the Science of Evil. But I found Pinker's analysis much more... consilient. Just as an example. :P And I've heard people criticise Pinker for being a bit of a dilettante. That said, I liked the Blank Slate more.

...what on earth does this have to do with stimming?? Hah!

[Assumption]

Originally Posted by Fortune

One of the reasons that I find SBC's description of autistic people and empathy to be dodgy is that it simply makes no sense to me.

I mean, it is true that I have constructed elaborate systems of rules and guidelines to describe what I see as right and wrong, and I tend to stick to them fairly rigidly. I just think there are big gaping holes in his writing on the topic.

I've always thought that if anything, I'm a 6 on Kohlberg's stages of moral reasoning. Before I get too self-congratulatory though, maybe that's because I have trouble even comprehending stages 1-5? I actually think I've been a 6 since I was a small child (hence my mother telling me that I always had an overdeveloped sense of justice).

[Fortune]

Fracturedstory usually has a good explanation for the difference between fidgeting and stimming. I usually come up with something like "Stimming looks unusual." Not all stims are visible, nor visibly unusual.

Mine can be fairly visible and I think somewhat annoying.