Borderline Personality Disorder Relationship Horror Stories

[ginniebean]

When a partner abuses someone do we ask the abused partner to 'understand'? I've been thinking of how many ways the children of people with personality disorders are neglected. Our parents often do go for help, and the abuse is often extremely cruel.

I have no desire to cause anyone pain, and I'm aware there are people here with personality disorders, some completely unaware even that they have one. At the same time, not being able to speak of my experience dishonours my experience.

I can't have clinical objectivity. For me,, this is more than my mother talks loud and is irritating, it's my mother abused me over and over, and my siblings as well. Did she mean to? How culpable is she? Does that matter to the child? Should it?

I would like to be more understanding, I really would, but when malicious acts are perpetrated against you, they may be someone being symptomatic but those acts leave wounds, they have affects that run deep.

I try very hard to be fair but there can be no fairness if those who are victimized have no outlet for speaking about it. I don't have the answers and I am biased and I posted for others like me.

[Fortune]

I found this paper interesting regarding manipulative behavior and people with BPD. It questions some of the assumptions about how people with BPD behave and why.

Something else I found recently indicates that the same part of the brain activates for both social rejection and physical pain. Given that so much of BPD seems to be tied up in bonds with others, fear of losing those bonds, and attempts to avoid losing those bonds, it would not surprise me in the least to learn that this particular connection is more acute for people with BPD.

I don't see the point in discussing people with personality disorders as if they've chosen to be the way they are. However, I do see the point of establishing healthy boundaries and being able to identify that one has been abused or otherwised harmed, regardless of what kind of diagnosis the person who did it might have or be eligible for.

I found it extremely strange that Simon Baron-Cohen characterized BPD as a zero empathy condition. That's not consistent with anyone I've known with BPD. I think the opposite is true, to the point of hypersensitivity. By empathy I mean awareness of other's emotions. Hypersensitivity doesn't necessarily mean that it's more accurate or more useful. Hypersensitivity is often overwhelming or overloading, at least in the context of sensory issues. No reason to assume it would be different if one is hypersensitive to others' emotions.

[ginniebean]

Originally Posted by Fortune

I found this paper interesting regarding manipulative behavior and people with BPD. It questions some of the assumptions about how people with BPD behave and why.

This is a swirling mess of double speak from my reading, let's use definitions and switch back and forth from clinical to colloquial, add a great whopping dollop of moral relativism and presto we've called into question the perceptions of absolutely everyone.

If I am right that behavior that is called manipulative in clinical settings is condoned, expected, or not even noticed in nonclinical settings, we need to have a noncircular way of identifying pathological manipulation. I return to this point later.

Not even NOTICED?? This shows the writers bias because clearly didn't talk to families.


I will say she brings up important ideas for consideration but they are unclear they get lost in this wholesale defence. Are moral judgements a problem for people with mental illness. Absolutely yes. In fact 'behaviour' is considered to be willful and those of us with ADHD know quite well the problem of misattribution. Are medical professionals who deal with people who have personality disorders guilty of lacking in empathy, misattribution, and judgemental attitudes. Yes, and for these reasons alone they need to be called on thier conduct.

Yet to define out of existence one of the hallmark traits, whether it be in the diagnostic code or not, is irresponsible and a measure of denial in and of itself.

I could write hundreds of scenarios of manipulation, that it is actual manipulation for me is without doubt. The one thing this writer does not touch upon is the harm such behaviour causes. It does create great distress in those who are subject to it.

Let me be clear, I don't know to what extent this behaviour is culpable, there is a lack of insight that's definitely present, how can there not be when denial is one of the main features and is in the diagnostic code. In my experience one of the main purposes of manipulation is to give foundation to denial that is strong enough to maintain it. I suspect this is reflexive and while aware that damage is being done (when there is awareness and yes, often there is) it's something of a devils bargain. They need the denial more than others need to be protected from the harm it causes.

I do think there needs to be a much more sensitive treatment of behaviours that aren't caused by hallucinations or delusions. I do feel our mental health system is bathed in morality plays and judgemental misattribution and little effort appears to be made to counter this, and what has been done is often undermined by staff who reject and undermine the efforts.

I also feel and with a degree of confidence say that people with personality disorders are not served well, are underserved in the mental health system. It is to some degree early days in terms of understanding PD's. We'll eventually see multiple etiologies, we'll see better definitions of dysfunction, and better education in how to help people with PD's manage. And they do deserve it.

There is no doubt in my mind that these individuals suffer greatly, and for that reason alone there is imperitive enough for that help to be granted.


I'm running out of time here, and I'd like to make comments on the rest of your post, (good stuff fortune) so, I'll do so later.

[sarahsweets]

I'm not sure if my father was a narrscist or BPD all I know is the pain I suffered and the pain he caused my mother. I can't even begin to describe it.I'm sure others fan relate. The mind fu **ing was unbelievable and the way it turned my insides out and made me feel like I should be better than who I am or what I was....well its a pain I would never wish on anyone.

In his own sick way he loved me. I know that now. He began treatment when he was 45 years old. The absolute best years of my life. For once I could love him and feel love that I missed my whole childhood. I was able to see it was his disorder not him that was evil.

This was in 1999...in 2000 2 weeks after my second daughter was born he came to the hospital to hold her. He told me she was the most magnificent thing I had ever created. He died march 9,his birthday from a massive heart attack brought on by years of self medicating and denial. He was 47.

I have come to the conclusion that I would take a lifetime of awful just to get those 2 years of wonderful. He needed treatment and coulnt get it. Call it stereotypes or bad parenting or discrimination but HEDIDNT get it. I try my best to offer sympathy even if I stay away from others like him. They deserve empathy and they are human beings.

[ginniebean]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

I have come to the conclusion that I would take a lifetime of awful just to get those 2 years of wonderful. He needed treatment and coulnt get it. Call it stereotypes or bad parenting or discrimination but HEDIDNT get it. I try my best to offer sympathy even if I stay away from others like him. They deserve empathy and they are human beings.

I know it might be hard for some to understand but this is how I feel as well. But the moments when I can get past my mom's defenses and the wall comes down are precious to me.

I am angry at the treatment my mom has received from psychiatric professionals. She went for help so often and ended up having horrors perpetrated upon her but she is only now getting real help. They do deserve empathy, they are human beings. Sometimes tho, they can be so toxic you do have to set severe boundaries.

I consider myself lucky that my mother is not as severe as others, the denial can be so bad and the mind **** incredibly abusive. One of my close friends has a mom with a personality disorder, she married a pedophile, she has documented evidence of gonohrea of the throat when she was three years old. Her mother denies this evidence to this day and continues to blame the daughter for ruining her family and being unforgiving.

Do I blame the mother for her denial? I don't know, but stories of this kind are not atypical. Not all PD's are equal, some are more damaging than others. Both to the person with them but to those around them.

[Fuzzy12]

Avj, I'm sorry about your ex and the pain she caused you or pehaps still is causing you.

I don't have any experience with BPD but it doesn't sound like fun.

I agree with Ginnie. Just the fact that you know that someone has a disorder and can't really be blamed for their actions doesn't make living with them any easier. The hurt they cause (for whatever reason) is very real and there is nothing wrong with trying to protect yourself from that hurt.

[Fortune]

Originally Posted by ginniebean

Yet to define out of existence one of the hallmark traits, whether it be in the diagnostic code or not, is irresponsible and a measure of denial in and of itself.

I could write hundreds of scenarios of manipulation, that it is actual manipulation for me is without doubt. The one thing this writer does not touch upon is the harm such behaviour causes. It does create great distress in those who are subject to it.

For an example: I was talking to my case manager about BPD and suicide a few weeks ago, and she said that people with BPD only threaten suicide to manipulate people. When I pointed out that approximately 10% of people with BPD successfully kill themselves, she turned it around and said that it was because they made a mistake and went to far. I do not think I really believe this. My legal father used suicide threats as manipulation, but he never actually attempted it. I think that once people are actually taking the pills or slashing their wrists or hanging themselves, they're not doing it strictly to manipulate people, they're doing it in an attempt to kill themselves.

[ginniebean]

Originally Posted by Fortune

For an example: I was talking to my case manager about BPD and suicide a few weeks ago, and she said that people with BPD only threaten suicide to manipulate people. When I pointed out that approximately 10% of people with BPD successfully kill themselves, she turned it around and said that it was because they made a mistake and went to far. I do not think I really believe this. My legal father used suicide threats as manipulation, but he never actually attempted it. I think that once people are actually taking the pills or slashing their wrists or hanging themselves, they're not doing it strictly to manipulate people, they're doing it in an attempt to kill themselves.

You're right about suicideand I think we can safely say this is across the board and perhaps a societal level denial. I've seen this said about suicide in general. I wasn't thinking anything so dire. Yes, mental health professionals often dislike mental health patients and specifically PD's. I think to a certain extent when what they are trying doesn't work they project all sorts of motives onto the patient.

This isn't exclusive to people with PD's.

Sad eh?

[Fuzzy12]

This is slightly off-topic and more in relation to suicide. I know people that threaten suicide to manipulate people and it's a horrible, horrible threat to use. However, we can't say that across the board all people that threaten to kill themselves or attempt suicide do it as a form of manipulation.

Another thing I hear a lot and that annoys the hell out of me is when people say that someone is just using suicide (threats or attempts!!) to get attention and therefore they needn't be taken seriously. ????????

I just don't understand it. If someone actually considers suicide to get attention doesn't that mean that they probably desperately need attention? Maybe they don't know any other way to ask for help. Maybe they think no one would listen unless they take a drastic step. Whatever, it is, I don't understand how anyone can dismiss suicide as a "need for attention" or worse, "a plea for help". If a plea is made, in whatever form, shouldn't it be taken seriously? I mean, can you expect someone who is so upset that they are actually considering suicide to make their pleas in the appropriate socially accepted format??

Grrr...people just look for excuses.

Rant over. Sorry Avj

Originally Posted by Fortune

For an example: I was talking to my case manager about BPD and suicide a few weeks ago, and she said that people with BPD only threaten suicide to manipulate people. When I pointed out that approximately 10% of people with BPD successfully kill themselves, she turned it around and said that it was because they made a mistake and went to far. I do not think I really believe this. My legal father used suicide threats as manipulation, but he never actually attempted it. I think that once people are actually taking the pills or slashing their wrists or hanging themselves, they're not doing it strictly to manipulate people, they're doing it in an attempt to kill themselves.

[kilted_scotsman]

Having been on the receiving end of suicidal manipulation I can't describe how it screws with one's head, (30 years on my relationships with women are still affected by it).... the suicide attempt toward the end of this relationship may have been an escalation of the manipulation but it's hard to say. Once in that maze it is impossible to be able to sort fact from fiction.

The occasion when a friend (not remotely BPD) did commit suicide, it came out of the blue and caught all of us unawares.... which also messed with ones head, but in a different way.

The difference is whether the suicidal actions are directed externally at others, or are a logical response to what is occurring internally in the mind of the sufferer.

Having come up against possible BPD I am not sure if BPD is genetic or environmental... or a combination of both.... the difficulty being that one doesn't know if the individual with possible BPD is telling one a manipulative pack of lies about their past.... or the horrible truth. Only the protagonists know.... and they're not going to come clean.

I retrospect I suspect that BPD individuals either target relationally insecure/co-dependent others... or end up with them through a process of elimination... so if you are, or have been in a relationship with a possibly BPD person it's worth focussing on ones own motivations..... rather than theirs.

kilted

[ginniebean]

Every last person with BPD I have ever met has in some way been neglected or abused in early child hood. I also read that 25% of infants adopted at birth grow up to have a personality disorder.




http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/....1996.10.3.247

The same is true for men, early history of child abuse/neglect/adoption

[ToneTone]

I was involved with someone who had all the traits of borderline personality. Yes, it was difficult and frustrating and maddening.

But I'll take this discussion in a different direction ... I ended up discovering an online community of "nons"--people without BPD who were involved with, often married to, people with BPD.

Here's the deal, and it was true of me ...There is a personality type that tends to get involved with people with BPD. To put it bluntly, a person has to have incredibly high codependent tendencies, a serious lack of boundaries or a really poor ability to say no to horrible behavior in order to get involved with a person with BPD.

We can blame them (the partners with BPD) all day long, but the fact is ... healthy people don't get involved with people like this ... There are always, always, early blatant signs of crazy, threatening or scary behavior from people with BPD. Their behavior and lashing out is not subtle. It is destructive, manipulative, hurtful, mean, vicious at times. And as I did, you have to be blind and immune to pain, in order to push forward to get deeply involved with a person who treats us like this.

Looking back, I see that I had a high tolerance for pain and misery in order to get involved with my BPD ex. I've had to look at that, and face that. I've spent the years since trying to get healthier ...

I don't mean to demoralize anyone. But the truth is my ex's behavior was no subtle (even before I knew of the term "BPD") and it was horrible and hurting ... and she didn't have a gun to my head ... and still I got involved.

Tone

[kilted_scotsman]

The difficulty with ad hoc statistics about abuse and BPD is that BPD sufferers usually have a history of manipulating others....... which means that one can't take what they say about their past at face value.

Sometimes circumstantial evidence is brought forward by the BPD person but this is to be treated as suspect (doubly so if it's brought forward at a time when their back is metaphorically against the wall). In attempting to "help" one enters a labyrinthine hall of smoke and mirrors that requires serious professional expertise to navigate.

I'd agree with ToneTone.... there are always early signs of trouble... but there's also always the "hook", the button the BPD person finds within you that makes you stay....

Looking back I can see that in my carcrash of a BPD relationship the make-up sex was vital part of her manipulative pattern.

Dealing with your own hook is the issue to hand.... leave the BPD person to the professionals.

kilted

[Lunacie]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy12

This is slightly off-topic and more in relation to suicide. I know people that threaten suicide to manipulate people and it's a horrible, horrible threat to use. However, we can't say that across the board all people that threaten to kill themselves or attempt suicide do it as a form of manipulation.

Another thing I hear a lot and that annoys the hell out of me is when people say that someone is just using suicide (threats or attempts!!) to get attention and therefore they needn't be taken seriously. ????????

I just don't understand it. If someone actually considers suicide to get attention doesn't that mean that they probably desperately need attention? Maybe they don't know any other way to ask for help. Maybe they think no one would listen unless they take a drastic step. Whatever, it is, I don't understand how anyone can dismiss suicide as a "need for attention" or worse, "a plea for help". If a plea is made, in whatever form, shouldn't it be taken seriously? I mean, can you expect someone who is so upset that they are actually considering suicide to make their pleas in the appropriate socially accepted format??

Grrr...people just look for excuses.

Rant over. Sorry Avj

My ex claimed I was only talking about suicide because I was trying to manipulate him.

Yeah, and I only asked him to take me to the funny farm because I was being manipulative.

I seriously did ask him to do that.

I felt like he and our daughter would be better off without me around.

Not to mention someone else would be doing all the worrying for a change instead of me.



This was after I told the doctor I was depressed and was concerned about it.

And his reaction was "Well, I'd be depressed too if I was a stay-at-home-mom."

It was my choice to be a sahm, it was NOT my choice to be depressed

(and have undiagnosed/untreated anxiety and ADHD).

The doc didn't offer a choice of anti-depressants or explain that I even had a choice.

He offered Prozac and I refused. Given my history of bad reactions to meds

I figured it would make me more suicidal.

[Crazygirl79]

I was in an abusive relationship with someone with suspected Bipolar (this was what he thought he had) and I've also known people with BPD.

What I'm about to say is going to sound really really harsh but I'm being brutally honest, I tend to stay the f**k away as far far away from these types of people as possible because I've had nothing but heartache, grief and anguish thanks to these sorts of people and while I sympathize and have empathy for their situation I don't need that type of negativity and baggage in my life and I don't have to be around such people anymore than anyone has to be around me with my ADHD, ASD and NVLD, it is a social choice nothing more and nothing less...I don't care what anyone thinks of this statement because it's how I feel and it's my right of choice who I do and don't associate with.

I've told the forum my story about my last relationship so I'm not going to relive it by telling it again but I will say this much I am still very damaged from it, I am not the same person anymore in fact I've turned into a person I'm not sure I even like and I will never forget the crippling anxiety I would feel every time his mood changed or every time he drank too much or every time someone else p*ssed him off and I never ever want to go through that again, I never ever want to be in such a dark place in my life again. I don't hate him but I resent him and what he's done...he has put me off ever allowing myself to be in a close friendship or relationship with certain types of people for life and those certain types of people have Bipolar and BPD because I cannot cope with the uncertainty, the instability and the unpredictability of those types of relationships and nor should I have to if I don't want to....Again it's a right of choice!

I certainly those who have been through a similar situation are able to get through it and become better people...

Selena