Autism vs ADHD? What's the difference?

[Lunacie]

Yes it is very confusing. Even the scientists and researchers are confused

and are debating the whole link between ADHD and Autism. Some research

has shown genetic connections, but it's too soon to say for sure just yet.

Some of us with both disorders in our families tend to see the similarities

rather than the differences.

[Subtract81]

For some reason it won't let me reply to you Fortune so i have had to write it like this... anyway i am still a little confused as i think we may be getting our wires crossed somewhat... anyway.

The conclusion stated it pretty plainly, that comorbidity is fairly common.

As i stated and you dismissed, i think this could easily be down to there being a significant issue with the defining features of these disorders which perhaps require further subdivisions in order to be useful in diagnosis.

No, we don't have to question the validity of the labels. I think you'd be better off questioning the validity of the dichotomies you set up in the first place. Your dichotomies are entirely anecdotal and not particularly useful for analysis of either disorder. I would go so far as to say that the way you framed them is begging the question.

My dichotomies were not anecdotal they are representative of the symptoms of the disorders as i have experienced and read, albeit simplified for ease of comparison, if i am indeed wrong please could you list the symptoms in a simplified manner so i can see the correct definitions.

This is strictly your perspective. You cannot extrapolate so much from a single perspective. It is simply not reasonable or logical to deduce that something must be impossible because you cannot imagine how it could be possible. You can't use your experiences to prove a negative.

Are you saying my perspective is invalid? please elaborate... If you could provide concise definitions for the symptoms as you see them so i can see how it contradicts my definitions. You have not really explained how i am wrong merely said i am incorrect without correcting these mistakes of mine. I said nothing about impossibility, i said apparent mutual exclusivity in defining characteristics.

Yes. Try this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditi...disorders#ADHD

Comorbidity seems to be a vague term at best. Your apparent certainty is slightly disconcerting considering even experts do not seem to be totally convinced, comorbidity could occur for any number of reasons, and the extent of this comorbidity i doubt is specified as it has to be largely subjective, it could easily support the fact that the definitions are not sufficient to specify an accurate diagnosis.

I will try to dig up further references later. Currently, however, science does not support your contention that the two cannot coexist, and existing research is fairly consistent in that the two rather frequently coexist.

I believe if the 2 can co-exist there must be discrepancies in defined symptoms of the disorders as i do not see how symptoms that apparently oppose each other to such a large extent can be diagnosed for the same person. I look forward to your evidence that none of the symptoms could be seen as mutually exclusive and that the naming conventions used for these disorders effectively encompass a full diagnosis of the symptoms of that individual, i am not optimistic i will be convinced but i will keep my fingers crossed!

[daveddd]

Originally Posted by daveddd

ive read(a lot) that a subtype of adhd that involves extreme vigilance and social anxiety is common

it can come across as aspergers

but being it is identifiable early in life puts it on the PDD spectrum


remember, currently adhd is simply a set of pervasive symptoms

these patients would end up with an asperger or pdd dx

comorbid with adhd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3351908/

[Subtract81]

Originally Posted by daveddd

these patients would end up with an asperger or pdd dx

comorbid with adhd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3351908/

Interesting study but not sure of its relevance to this discussion? What are the repurcussions for the comorbidity and defining symptoms of autism and adhd as i saw no mention of autism...

On a seperate note I find a lot of these acronyms and classification systems seem to be almost intentionally misleading and confusing. Who would profit from confusing people over their symptoms and potential diagnoses? Anyway, I almost think there should be shorthand for symptoms as it would be far more useful as I and I am sure many others find much of this classification system extremely unintuitive and unhelpful, from a diagnostic perspective, which is surely the entire function of the classification in the first place...

[daveddd]

Originally Posted by Subtract81

Interesting study but not sure of its relevance to this discussion? What are the repurcussions for the comorbidity and defining symptoms of autism and adhd as i saw no mention of autism...

On a seperate note I find a lot of these acronyms and classification systems seem to be almost intentionally misleading and confusing. Who would profit from confusing people over their symptoms and potential diagnoses? Anyway, I almost think there should be shorthand for symptoms as it would be far more useful as I and I am sure many others find much of this classification system extremely unintuitive and unhelpful, from a diagnostic perspective, which is surely the entire function of the classification in the first place...

sorry, i should of attempt to explain it

autism mainly reflects social communication issues

but there seems to be different pathways (or causes) to it

the article i mentioned is something i know quite a bit about

the group involves social anxiety, emotional recognition issues and adhd

which would look like aspergers or hfa

only this is a disorder driven by extreme levels of hyperarousal or trait anxiety


as opposed to idiopathic autism which is defined as a deficit in social skills and indifference to social interaction

so i believe the first one is on a spectrum with adhd



sorry if this doesnt make sense, im struggling tonight

[Subtract81]

Originally Posted by daveddd

sorry, i should of attempt to explain it

autism mainly reflects social communication issues

but there seems to be different pathways (or causes) to it

the article i mentioned is something i know quite a bit about

the group involves social anxiety, emotional recognition issues and adhd

which would look like aspergers or hfa

only this is a disorder driven by extreme levels of hyperarousal or trait anxiety


as opposed to idiopathic autism which is defined as a deficit in social skills and indifference to social interaction

so i believe the first one is on a spectrum with adhd



sorry if this doesnt make sense, im struggling tonight

So if i have this right, you are basically saying that certain types of adhd with anxiety issues can lead to apparent autistic symptoms whist not actually being ASD?

[daveddd]

Originally Posted by Subtract81

So if i have this right, you are basically saying that certain types of adhd can lead to the appearance of autistic symptoms whist not actually being ASD?

it seems more a matter of severity, wether it meets an asd or just adhd

this type is genetic

aspergers, adhd and maybe just social anxiety will run in the family

as opposed to the complete indifference model which is currently idiopathic

[daveddd]

learning disabilities seem to be the rule with the genetic version as well

[Fortune]

Originally Posted by Subtract81

As i stated and you dismissed, i think this could easily be down to there being a significant issue with the defining features of these disorders which perhaps require further subdivisions in order to be useful in diagnosis.

I dismissed it because it is largely unfounded supposition. You are saying "my experience is that these are mutually exclusive." Well, my experience is that they're not, as I experience both. Now where are we? Well, actual research supports the relatively high rate of ADHD in autistic people, whereas actual research does not support the exclusion of the two diagnoses that is listed in the ADHD criteria in the DSM-IV.

My dichotomies were not anecdotal they are representative of the symptoms of the disorders as i have experienced and read, albeit simplified for ease of comparison, if i am indeed wrong please could you list the symptoms in a simplified manner so i can see the correct definitions.

When you say "they are representative of the disorders as you have experienced" that is anecdotal. That's what anecdotal means. Personal experience. It's not invalid and it is data, but it is far from sufficient data to support a conclusion that autism and ADHD are mutually exclusive.

As far as your reading goes, since you do not have both, you are trying to model whichever one you do not have as something that it is not. Which is to say, you're creating a black and white dichotomy where the two are simply opposites, and they are not.

Are you saying my perspective is invalid? please elaborate...

I am saying that your experiences from your perspective are insufficient to provide the basis for any kind of conclusion about the interaction of ADHD and autism.

If you could provide concise definitions for the symptoms as you see them so i can see how it contradicts my definitions. You have not really explained how i am wrong merely said i am incorrect without correcting these mistakes of mine. I said nothing about impossibility, i said apparent mutual exclusivity in defining characteristics.

Actually, I linked you research that outright says your assumption is incorrect, and you dismissed it because you couldn't read the entire paper.

I cannot reduce ADHD or autism down to a concise list of symptoms for you to pick apart. They're both part of my life and a part of who I am, and I can give you thousands of examples of how each affects me, but I cannot reduce these down to simple symptom lists.

Comorbidity seems to be a vague term at best. Your apparent certainty is slightly disconcerting considering even experts do not seem to be totally convinced, comorbidity could occur for any number of reasons, and the extent of this comorbidity i doubt is specified as it has to be largely subjective, it could easily support the fact that the definitions are not sufficient to specify an accurate diagnosis.

This is known as shifting the goalpost. First you say that the two cannot coexist. When you are given information that says they can, you equivocate and try to change the terms. This is not a logical approach, which is rather frustrating since you appeal to logic (which apparently doesn't require factual information) to support your conclusions. However, if you say two things cannot coexist and you are interacting with two people in this thread for whom they do coexist, then logic should not lead you to conclude that such a thing is impossible, and trying to change the foundation upon which this premise rests simply undermines your own attempts to appeal to logic.

I believe if the 2 can co-exist there must be discrepancies in defined symptoms of the disorders as i do not see how symptoms that apparently oppose each other to such a large extent can be diagnosed for the same person. I look forward to your evidence that none of the symptoms could be seen as mutually exclusive and that the naming conventions used for these disorders effectively encompass a full diagnosis of the symptoms of that individual, i am not optimistic i will be convinced but i will keep my fingers crossed!

Those symptoms are not diametrically opposed as you claim. You are framing them as diametrically opposed. I work best when I have a routine. I need routine to function well. When my routines are disrupted I have significant trouble until they're restored or I can adapt - and the adapting can take weeks. By the same token, I actually have trouble with my routines, of setting up routines more complex than I currently have. If I have too much to do it will all fall apart and I will likely burn out. It is possible to need routine (I think calling this an "obsession" is completely wrong, however - that is like saying that a left handed person is "obsessed with doing things with their left hand") and still have trouble establishing and maintaining them.

Here's a reference from page 18 of Tony Attwood's Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome:

Page 18

The general population is reasonably knowledgeable about Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and the child may be of concern to parents and teacher because of problems with sustained attention, impulsivity and hyperactivity. This diagnosis may account for the child’s difficulties in these areas but not explain the child’s unusual profile of social, linguistic and cognitive abilities, which are more accurately described by the diagnostic criteria for Asperger’s syndrome. The ADHD was accurately diagnosed first but was not the end of the diagnostic trail.

Clinicians have recognized for some time that children with Asperger’s syndrome can also have signs of ADHD, which has been confirmed by several research studies and case descriptions (Ehlers and Gillberg 1993; Fein et al. 2005; Ghaziuddin, Weider-Mikhail and Ghaziuddin 1998; Klin and Volkmar 1997; Perry 1998; Tani et al. 2006). The two diagnoses are not mutually exclusive and a child may benefit from the medical treatment and strategies used for both disorders.

I have observed young children with Asperger’s syndrome who have been hyperactive but not necessarily due to having ADHD. The hyperactivity can be a response to a high level of stress and anxiety, particularly in new social situations, making the child unable to sit still and relax. It is important to distinguish between a range of factors that can influence attention span (such as motivation) and hyperactivity before confirming the diagnosis of ADHD.

[Fortune]

Originally Posted by daveddd

autism mainly reflects social communication issues

Autism is mainly described in terms of social and communication issues, but I would argue that it is not mainly those things. It is a lot of things. It is pervasive and impacts every part of cognition and perception.

[Subtract81]

I am not going to go through your entire post, there seems to be a slight interpretation issue, anyway by "experiences" i meant i have add and i have a friend with asperger's, both reasonably intelligent but pretty obviously contrasting personalities in many respects corresponding largely with what i have subsequently read on the 2 conditions, if this renders my perspective invalid in your opinion then so be it.

I wanted to clarify my understanding, i assumed diagnosis was based on symptoms, but you could not provide a list and find mine to be incorrect which renders this somewhat unresolvable, as far as i know we all only have one brain.

Anyway all this talk of brains has rendered me brain dead and now I have to sleep, it has been interesting, just a shame things still don't really make sense to me or are any clearer in my mind.

[daveddd]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3023021/

this says it better for me(if anyone cares)

the genetic cause of autism here also causes adhd

the sensory issue mentioned here (PPI), is the case for most genetic autistic disorders

so superficially the symptoms may be the same, but the presentations completely different

the sensory model shares several characteristics of adhd

while an idiopathic one is completely different, not really even similar to adhd at all

[Fortune]

Originally Posted by Subtract81

I am not going to go through your entire post, there seems to be a slight interpretation issue, anyway by "experiences" i meant i have add and i have a friend with asperger's, both reasonably intelligent but pretty obviously contrasting personalities in many respects corresponding largely with what i have subsequently read on the 2 conditions, if this renders my perspective invalid in your opinion then so be it.

It renders your perspective insufficient for determining the possibility or impossibility of autism and ADHD existing in the same person. I never said your experiences were invalid, I simply said your conclusions were. You cannot take two individuals - one from each population - and draw any valid conclusions about both populations as a whole. In order support a coherent hypothesis, you require a statistically significant sample, and should you have such a thing, you will find that many such people meet the criteria for both an ASD and ADHD.

I wanted to clarify my understanding, i assumed diagnosis was based on symptoms, but you could not provide a list and find mine to be incorrect which renders this somewhat unresolvable, as far as i know we all only have one brain.

If you wanted a diagnostic list, I can point you to several:

Proposed DSM-5 criteria for autism spectrum disorder:

http://www.dsm5.org/proposedrevision...on.aspx?rid=94

You can also google:

Asperger's criteria DSM-IV
Autism criteria DSM-IV
Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified DSM-IV

Autism, Asperger's Syndrome, and Atypical Autism in the ICD-9, 10, and 11.

You can do the same for ADHD. Here's the proposed DSM-5 diagnostic criteria:

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision...n.aspx?rid=383

What I cannot do is encapsulate my autism into a neat, tidy list. Listing which criteria I meet isn't going to tell you anything.

[Fortune]

Originally Posted by daveddd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3023021/

this says it better for me(if anyone cares)

the genetic cause of autism here also causes adhd

the sensory issue mentioned here (PPI), is the case for most genetic autistic disorders

so superficially the symptoms may be the same, but the presentations completely different

the sensory model shares several characteristics of adhd

while an idiopathic one is completely different, not really even similar to adhd at all

When you say the sensory model, what do you mean? Because sensory issues are common across the entire autistic population, much moreso than among people with ADHD.

This study does not demonstrate that social communication problems are the main issue in any kind of autism. It demonstrates that a particular kind of problem tends to be worse in a particular autistic subpopulation.

[daveddd]

Originally Posted by Fortune

When you say the sensory model, what do you mean? Because sensory issues are common across the entire autistic population, much moreso than among people with ADHD.

This study does not demonstrate that social communication problems are the main issue in any kind of autism. It demonstrates that a particular kind of problem tends to be worse in a particular autistic subpopulation.

i was trying to say there are different reasons and motives for social communication issues

i mean hyper vigilant , over stimulated, permanent fight or flight nervous system

including the amygdala (or whatever processes empathy)

you know the "too much empathy" theory

this causes them to experience affective states that are overwhelming, and therefore passively avoided


causing poor social interaction, due to the lack of emotional interaction(to avoid powerful affect)

the overactive nervous system also over responds to eye contact, and causes high anxiety and avoidance of that too, further complicating social communication

so they may have the desire for social interaction , they actively avoid them in order to prevent uncomfortable feelings

these traits exist in adhd as well, and i believe linked with it

in idiopathic autism they found social issues where due to indifference, and just not desiring human interaction


they can have sensory issues, but not like the fragile x autism (everything ive read has most genetic cases of autism resembling the fragile x model)


its believed these two phenotypes have different causes, therefore different treatment