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  #1  
Old 12-19-17, 07:40 PM
mildadhd mildadhd is offline
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What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

Quote:
..having good balance depends on three things:

your vision
your ability to feel your feet and sense the position of your body in the environment or surroundings, and
your capacity to tell if you are really moving through space.


Obviously vision is important to balance, no getting around it. Still, vision is only one of the aspects involved. With practice, you can develop the other two aspects and their respective skills to compensate for vision loss.

http://www.afb.org/section.aspx?Sect...ocumentID=3470
Today, I was wondering how blind people have the ability to balance when standing, walking, etc, without vision?

And I found this article (above) explaining how vision is important for developing balance, but things other than vision are also important and can compensate for vision, in regard to blind people developing balance.



Now I am wondering what number of things the development of emotional self regulation depends on?

I know attunement is one aspect involved in the development of emotional self regulation.

What other things does development of emotional self regulation also depend on, that might help compensate for attunement loss, and promote development of emotional self regulation?

-attunement
- ?
- ?

With practice, can we “develop other aspects and their respective skills to compensate for” impairments in emotional self regulation, like people with visual impairments can still learn to balance without vision?











M
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Last edited by mildadhd; 12-19-17 at 07:55 PM..
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Old 12-20-17, 07:36 PM
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Re: What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
Today, I was wondering how blind people have the ability to balance when standing, walking, etc, without vision?

And I found this article (above) explaining how vision is important for developing balance, but things other than vision are also important and can compensate for vision, in regard to blind people developing balance.



Now I am wondering what number of things the development of emotional self regulation depends on?

I know attunement is one aspect involved in the development of emotional self regulation.

What other things does development of emotional self regulation also depend on, that might help compensate for attunement loss, and promote development of emotional self regulation?

-attunement
- ?
- ?

With practice, can we “develop other aspects and their respective skills to compensate for” impairments in emotional self regulation, like people with visual impairments can still learn to balance without vision?


M
Maybe it would help if you defined emotion, and its components?
What is it that we are regulating?
What are emotions for?
What do they achieve?
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Max Planck: Nobel Prize 1918 for inventing quantum physics.

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  #3  
Old 12-21-17, 02:20 AM
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Re: What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunga Dorji View Post
Maybe it would help if you defined emotion, and its components?
Emotions are feelings.

There are 3 types of instinctual primary affective (feeling) response systems

-Emotional feelings
-Sensory feelings
-Homeostatic feelings

Experiences of all 3 primary emotional affect, sensory affect, and homeostatic affect, are first blended together at the primary state/processing level of brain control/regulation.

-the mammalian homologous unconditioned primary emotional-affective response systems are..

The SEEKING system
The RAGE system
The FEAR system
The LUST system
The social CARE system
The social GRIEF system
The social PLAY system

(See Jaak Panksepp)





(Before focusing discussion more on homologous components and individual emotional experiences involved in conditioned secondary and tertiary emotional processing levels of brain control/regulation.)(I have two questions.)


-What are the homologous unconditioned primary sensory-affective response systems?


-What are the homologous unconditioned primary homeostatic affective response systems?





M
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Last edited by mildadhd; 12-21-17 at 02:50 AM..
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Old 12-23-17, 03:37 AM
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Re: What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

Dr. Paul BackyRita gives a really interesting example involving the sensation of touching, resulting in the stimulation, brain processing and blending of both, sensory functions and emotional functions.


Quote:
(2:30)..we have been working with a leprosy patient with no hand sensation for 20 years, because of leprosy..

..and we made a glove with one single sensor, going to one single point to each of five points across the forehead where he did have sensation.

And within the first couple of hours of training with that glove, reported what he could do, feeling cracks in the table.

Then he turned to me and said, “you know doctor, the most fascinating thing for me was touching my wife. For the first time in 20 years, I could feel it when I touched my wife”.

So this whole sensory loop, with minimal information produced not only the perception of touch, but also the emotional content of the touch..


M
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Last edited by mildadhd; 12-23-17 at 04:06 AM.. Reason: Edit
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  #5  
Old 12-25-17, 09:08 PM
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Re: What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
Emotions are feelings.

There are 3 types of instinctual primary affective (feeling) response systems

-Emotional feelings
-Sensory feelings
-Homeostatic feelings

Experiences of all 3 primary emotional affect, sensory affect, and homeostatic affect, are first blended together at the primary state/processing level of brain control/regulation.

-the mammalian homologous unconditioned primary emotional-affective response systems are..

The SEEKING system
The RAGE system
The FEAR system
The LUST system
The social CARE system
The social GRIEF system
The social PLAY system

(See Jaak Panksepp)





(Before focusing discussion more on homologous components and individual emotional experiences involved in conditioned secondary and tertiary emotional processing levels of brain control/regulation.)(I have two questions.)


-What are the homologous unconditioned primary sensory-affective response systems?


-What are the homologous unconditioned primary homeostatic affective response systems?





M
So, what is Panksepp's core definition of "an emotion"?
What is yours?
__________________
Science advances --one funeral at a time.

I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.

both by:
Max Planck: Nobel Prize 1918 for inventing quantum physics.

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  #6  
Old 12-25-17, 09:31 PM
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Re: What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunga Dorji View Post
So, what is Panksepp's core definition of "an emotion"?
What is yours?
I find Antonio Damasio's definition in "Self Comes To Mind" to be helpful and well bedded in scientific reality.

Quote:
Emotions are complex, largely automated programs of actions concocted by evolution. The actions are complemented by a cognitive program that includes certain ideas and modes of cognition,but the world of emotions is largely one carried out in our bodies, from facial expressions and postures to changes in viscera and internal milieu.

Feelings of emotion, on the other hand are composite perceptions carried out in our bodies and minds when we are emoting. As far as the brain is concerned, feelings are images of actions rather than actions themselves; the world of feelings is one of perceptions executed in brain maps....... The feelings are based on the unique relationship between the brain and body that priveleges interoception....which dominates the process and is responsible for what we designate as the felt aspect of these perceptions"
Now the sensations that are interocepted are all autonomic.
And this is why this is so important:



The situation described here is continually setting off false fight, flight (hyperactive, can't concentrate) and freeze (brain fog, inattentive) responses. However it is also continually generating the interoceptions of negative emotional states.

The author of the clip is saying that this is due to brain injury-and as I have discussed elsewhere he is not the only one and brain injury is fundamentally different to emotional trauma, poor attachment.

The clip describes me very well, except that it is also mixed in with back pain as I lose postural tone when I hit "freeze".

On a good day that process will only cause me exhaustion, but on a bad day I will misinterpret all sorts of information coming from all sorts of directions.That causes a hell of a lot of aggravation.
__________________
Science advances --one funeral at a time.

I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.

both by:
Max Planck: Nobel Prize 1918 for inventing quantum physics.

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  #7  
Old 12-25-17, 10:01 PM
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Re: What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
Today, I was wondering how blind people have the ability to balance when standing, walking, etc, without vision?

And I found this article (above) explaining how vision is important for developing balance, but things other than vision are also important and can compensate for vision, in regard to blind people developing balance.



Now I am wondering what number of things the development of emotional self regulation depends on?

I know attunement is one aspect involved in the development of emotional self regulation.

What other things does development of emotional self regulation also depend on, that might help compensate for attunement loss, and promote development of emotional self regulation?

-attunement
- ?
- ?

With practice, can we “develop other aspects and their respective skills to compensate for” impairments in emotional self regulation, like people with visual impairments can still learn to balance without vision?


M
With regard to the issue of balance in blind people-- balance will not be an issue unless 2 out of the three inputs (vision, proprioception and vestibular balance) are impaired. IE - Im sure you can walk around in your own house at night. (then again if you are ADHD you might just have a vestibular issue too)!

Balance can be improved by mindful attention to proprioception (body position sensation). Its been a while since I have done Tai Chi- but it has caused a lasting improvement in my balance.

If you look at the post above you can see the emphasis on interoception of autonomic phenomena as the key sensory input that defines emotions.

The issue with orthostatic intolerance is, as I said, critical, because it generates so many false sensory alarms that can confuse our judgment of a given situation.

So- emotional self regulation firstly depends on a well functioning body.
Impairments in the cerebello-vestibular system are common (if not universal in ADHD) and are partially responsive to stimulants btw. Hence the new entity being described- "Cerebellar Cognitive Affective Syndrome"- of which ADHD is proposed as one manifestation.

However, if cerebello-vestibular system is dysfunctional the ability of the brain to integrate all inputs and correctly adjust blood flow goes out the window. Hence orthostatic intolerance as described above. This is not a true dysautonomia ( Unlike say, Shy Drager Syndrome).

Once you have a well functioning body- then you need to be attached to a well regulated adult whose emotional style presents you with a suitable model. The dysfunctions of attachment, it seems to me, seem to largely come from interactions with primary carers who carry their own dysfunctions.

So- what to do?
1) Address the underlying problems- see the link I previously put up to Prof Mellilo for the functional neuro approach, and the You tube link above addresses another approach, which I am investigating with great interest.
Transauricular vagus Nerve stimulation- looks extremely promising and cheap-- it is worthwhile looking more at Dr Patrick Nemechek's site for more detail there.


2) General Rehabilitation:
Exercise- intense and precise (ie gym- weights- supervised).
Movement training- Tai Chi or other martial arts, Feldenkrais, Yoga (I suspect the first is the best as per Dr John Ratey.
Meditation/ Mindfulness- provides postural correction, better breathing patterns (autonomic self regulation), better awarenesss of the interoceptive states associated with various stress responses and, of the way thoughts are conditioned by interoceptive states-- which helps with being unreactive, and reduces the number of messes you have to clean up.
Heart Rate Variability training- also helps improve autonomic stability

Bear in mind though that these are all "Top Down Approaches" and I think they take a long time and a lot of practice to produce a lasting change.
__________________
Science advances --one funeral at a time.

I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.

both by:
Max Planck: Nobel Prize 1918 for inventing quantum physics.

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Old 12-26-17, 08:53 AM
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Re: What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunga Dorji View Post
So, what is Panksepp's core definition of "an emotion"?
What is yours?
Anything not quoted is my interpretation.

Unconditioned instinctual primary raw emotional feeling systems in our brains, evolved with our ancestors bodily motion/movement.

Conditioned subjective emotional feelings are complex subjective variations on primordial unconditioned primary emotional response systems.


Quote:
Quote:
I hypothesize that the first and most elementary product of the protoself is primordial feelings, which occur spontaneously and continuously whenever one is awake. They provide a direct experience of one’s own living body, wordless, unadorned, and connected to nothing but sheer existence. These primordial feelings reflect the current state of the body along varied dimensions, for example, along the scale that ranges from pleasure to pain, and they originate at the level of the brain stem rather than the cerebral cortex. All feelings of emotion are complex musical variations on primordial feelings. 17
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...es_to_Mind.pdf


The unconditioned emotional response systems (Panksepp) are the primordial emotional feeling systems.

The unconditioned sensory response systems are the primordial sensory feeling systems.

The unconditioned homeostatic response systems are the primordial homeostatic feeling systems.



M
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Last edited by mildadhd; 12-26-17 at 09:18 AM..
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  #9  
Old 12-26-17, 03:49 PM
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Re: What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

If your talking about emotional or affect regulation that would be coping skills, coping skills would be required
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Old 12-28-17, 07:46 AM
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Re: What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunga Dorji View Post
With regard to the issue of balance in blind people-- balance will not be an issue unless 2 out of the three inputs (vision, proprioception and vestibular balance) are impaired. IE - Im sure you can walk around in your own house at night. (then again if you are ADHD you might just have a vestibular issue too)!

Balance can be improved by mindful attention to proprioception (body position sensation). Its been a while since I have done Tai Chi- but it has caused a lasting improvement in my balance.

If you look at the post above you can see the emphasis on interoception of autonomic phenomena as the key sensory input that defines emotions.

The issue with orthostatic intolerance is, as I said, critical, because it generates so many false sensory alarms that can confuse our judgment of a given situation.

So- emotional self regulation firstly depends on a well functioning body.
Impairments in the cerebello-vestibular system are common (if not universal in ADHD) and are partially responsive to stimulants btw. Hence the new entity being described- "Cerebellar Cognitive Affective Syndrome"- of which ADHD is proposed as one manifestation.

However, if cerebello-vestibular system is dysfunctional the ability of the brain to integrate all inputs and correctly adjust blood flow goes out the window. Hence orthostatic intolerance as described above. This is not a true dysautonomia ( Unlike say, Shy Drager Syndrome).

Once you have a well functioning body- then you need to be attached to a well regulated adult whose emotional style presents you with a suitable model. The dysfunctions of attachment, it seems to me, seem to largely come from interactions with primary carers who carry their own dysfunctions.

So- what to do?
1) Address the underlying problems- see the link I previously put up to Prof Mellilo for the functional neuro approach, and the You tube link above addresses another approach, which I am investigating with great interest.
Transauricular vagus Nerve stimulation- looks extremely promising and cheap-- it is worthwhile looking more at Dr Patrick Nemechek's site for more detail there.


2) General Rehabilitation:
Exercise- intense and precise (ie gym- weights- supervised).
Movement training- Tai Chi or other martial arts, Feldenkrais, Yoga (I suspect the first is the best as per Dr John Ratey.
Meditation/ Mindfulness- provides postural correction, better breathing patterns (autonomic self regulation), better awarenesss of the interoceptive states associated with various stress responses and, of the way thoughts are conditioned by interoceptive states-- which helps with being unreactive, and reduces the number of messes you have to clean up.
Heart Rate Variability training- also helps improve autonomic stability

Bear in mind though that these are all "Top Down Approaches" and I think they take a long time and a lot of practice to produce a lasting change.

So- what is a "lot of practice"?Probably 20,000 hours. A big ask.
__________________
Science advances --one funeral at a time.

I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.

both by:
Max Planck: Nobel Prize 1918 for inventing quantum physics.

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Old 12-30-17, 07:25 PM
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Re: What # of things does the development of self regulation depends on?

-Development of top-down emotional self regulation depends on development bottom-up autonomic functions.






M
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