Poll: Ideal Self

[mADD mike]

You say that you want to see what part ADD had to do with how things went. He's gone. Why does it matter?

[FrazzleDazzle]

You are very correct. When enterering into a relationship, certain things, you would ASSUME, would be present. Attributes like kindness, supportiveness, desire for teamwork, sharing, caring, selflessness, etc. Things most of us do have as part of our "ideal selves."

So, sometimes people lie, misrepresent themselves, still try to muster up these things, or whatever, etc., to "get the job." When these required, assumed, attributes are later found to just not be present as required in the hired-for position, they are justified in being "fired." However, as in any "job," the responsibility of mustering up said attribute lies upon the individual in question, NOT the person doing the hiring or firing. Not too many employers give unsavory employees the time or chances that you did. (Which is a commendable act on your part) NO employer is going to go to so much trouble to instill a work ethic in an individual that clearly is not present or who is incapable of developing a prompt arrival at work. HR knows a lot about people and how they work. Looking for a prospective mate is a lot like hiring an individual for a job requirement. If they end up really not having the attributes needed to complete the job, no matter how both parties feel about the situation, they get let go, the employer returns to the pool (or pond) of prospective individuals to obtain a better fit for the job, and the former employee moves on to find a job that, perhaps, doesn't have expectations beyond that which he can provide.

[FrazzleDazzle]

I'm sorry, I'm thinking and I can't stop!!!!!

Hope springs eternal. But changes nothing.

You know some of my history with my ex that I shared on the other thread. We knew each other for three years, so I felt pretty safe in this person and what he had to offer, save for a few character issues I felt would resolve once we got married. THERE was my flaw in thinking. My flaw. Certain unalienable rights one would expect in a committed loving relationship were NOT PRESENT. Not before we married, and not after. And he cannot provide these things to his son either. For some reason beyond my simple mind they are not present, and I do think he suffers from some disorder that prevents him from providing things most persons take for granted in relationships

But golly, and it never even really occurred to me to request these things of him or offer him ultimatums if he couldn’t. I simply know how he is, what his “ideal self” is to himself, accepted that with extreme disappointment and regret, kicked myself for my youthful flaws in thinking that if he loved me enough he would change for me, yet realized he is who he is and is beyond self-reflection, intuitiveness, and self-growth, and will not change, for me, for love, or for his son. I left.

His “ideal self” is obviously quite different and out of alignment with my own, and beyond “improvement” or change towards my own, despite the fact that we knew that lack of alignment would tear our family apart, and neither of us, despite feedback from each other (oh that was the fun part) wanted to change our “ideal selves.” Is his ideal self right or wrong, no. Is my ideal self right or wrong, no. We are what we are, and our “ideal selves” are simply out of alignment with each other.

I can count the reasons from day to day why his "ideal self" may be so different from other men in happy relationships, but in the end, really, it changes absolutely nothing but his free rent space in my head.

[ADHDTigger]

I disagree.

His concept of marriage is very obviously quite different than yours. I have been married more than once and can tell you absolutely that both men had VERY different beliefs than one another.

If I take a job as a teacher (I have done this), I am committing to govern my self in a particular way AS IT CONCERNS MY JOB. After five and on weekends, I don't have to manage to those rules of governance. That is my own time. Last time I checked, there is NO time off in a marriage.

From my perspective, you are trying to blame everything on ADHD. Consider this- we are all different. I may have common traits with other ADHDers but that isn't necessarily the ADHD in action. It could be any number of things.

Sometimes a fish is just a fish. Please, for your own sake, let this go.

Originally Posted by crossroads

No, it is not a flaw at all. As long, as he wanted to marry me and spend the rest of his life with me, he had to accept his share in the effort to make it work. When the need for the shared value of an unselfish and fair balance between giving and taking is common sense for marriage counselors between many more people, then entering a commitment with the goal of marriage implies accepting such shared values.
When somebody commits to a job as a teacher, he has to accept shared values with his school like punctuality.

If somebody cannot acknowledge the shared values of any kind of commitment, he has to stay out it.

Someone, who does not accept the balance of giving and taking in a relationship, should stay alone and not enter a relationship, that he brings doom to.

Had he refused to acknowledge needed shared values, before we got involved, I would have made a flaw in demanding them. Just as the school could not demand the shared value of punctuality from anybody, only from a teacher, after he committed himself to the job.

[ginniebean]

Originally Posted by meadd823

There are times when having an ideal self as it is put isn't painful but is useful. Maybe because I am not talking as self-hood as in value of being a person but I see it in terms of perspective attitudes and behavior that should remain in a state of progress.

I think we mean actually the same thing. I just expressed it differently. In your story (great story btw I never heard that expression 'hinges of hell' before. Quite funny.)

What I see in your story is you chose to live the reality of the situation and not allow how things could/should/ought to be use up your energy resisting the reality. (that's the pain of the ideal, things are not ideal and when I resist the real it results in pain) But actually, your use of ideal self as 'being that model of cheerfulness in a trying circumstance is the same as mine. I would have failed that particular test tho I can guarantee it would have been me pitching a fit in the middle of the road.


[quote]After birthday number 40 I gave my self the right to absolutely refuse to be towed via a chain just like I gave myself permission to quit moving heavy appliances out of windows or up flights of stares the day I turned 35. Every five years I give myself permission to quit doing some thing that I find painfully hard or frightening. [quote]

Meade you're amazing. You are like the ADHD fountain of wisdom. Yoda even comes to mind! Damn why didn't I think of this!

I can remember every one looking at me as if I had lost my mind. My reasoning was days like this one MUST have red and blue flashing lights in them some how some where and the way I saw it being stopped by the police was better than requiring the services of a fire truck or ambulance. {My other two choices in emergency vehicles with flashing lights}

Sitting in the dark living room of that trailer I remember back when I was the kind of woman who could jerk a mans chain so hard he thought he was back in jr high but I forgot how to be that person I forget how to live out side of my own head.

I await the day that this feat of magic will be revealed to me oh Jedi Master. (private message will do)

There is "no ideal" me , but there are things I want to improve upon. . I see life as an on going process not an arrival.

The problem that I have with 'ideals' is that they are figments of imagination, air castles. Setting aims, seeing where I actually arrive which is often a deviation from my aim and yet often the perfect place to be is the reality of my life.

There is no one who can be me better than me, I am already the perfect person to be me and I am actually perfect at being me. I guess I look at it as I never stopped being perfect, I was born perfect. When I forget this, I start wanting to be 'better' which often results in my seeing myself as 'worse'. (this really does make sense to me most of the time)

At the same time there is a process too and this process of 'becoming' gives my life meaning. Maybe having an ideal self is a kind of presumption that you know how the story ends before even reading the book.

[crossroads]

I really appreciate all your thoughts, but I cannot keep up to reply to all.

You say that you want to see what part ADD had to do with how things went. He's gone. Why does it matter?

It is very important. He left at the moment, when this obviously was the right thing for him, and I consider it as another ADD impulse. I had not yet reached a final conclusion, if there was any hope, that he would make the relationship less painful and viable for me, or if it was really hopeless. It was a premature ending.
That has very grave consequences. In spite of knowing, that he is determined to never see me again, I would sit sobbing in a corner, longing for him, indulging in all the memories of hikes, colourful sunsets, full moon walks, museums, concerts, festivals together and so on. I would wait for emails from him in spite of knowing, that they never come.
I do not want this to happen, and there is only one alternative: I need to convince myself rationally, that he really is no good for me, and not abstractly, but for very good reasons. If I could convince myself, that he is worse than only ADD, especially if he were narcissistic, that would be a big step.
So far I have the impression, that once someone has fully acknowledged his ADD and what issues he has with it, he is capable to be unselfish and caring enough to make a difficult life of a couple possible.
From what I have read, narcissists are bound to be monsters to their partners, with no hope of improvement. I suspect, that his narcissism impedes him from acknowledging having any 'defect' like ADD (from his point of view).
I still need to find out more, I am not yet really done with him in my mind and my emotions. You all are very helpful

[peripatetic]

what a fantastic question, crossroads!

i did not select an option, but i have an explanation. the short answer is:

yes, but i wouldn't use the term 'ideal' as it connotes a quality in our vernacular that i do not ascribe to my position, but i can wrap my head around the likelihood that my discomfort with 'ideal' is due to my preference for a more specifically defined term and likely the connotation of 'ideal' i reject is not one you intended. 'ideal' connotes an effete concept/a static idea and what i see as 'expression of eidetic good in action/response/manifestation' is dynamic and open to new information and refutation.

and, i'm fine with the fact that i often, most likely, do not express beauty, truth, good, etc because it's all a learning experience. in that respect, i'm fine. i would say i have more of an issue with my inability to execute more social-practical matters consistently (or at all). but, i don't really see my inability to pay bills as having anything to do with whether or not i'm an ethical/just/truth-seeking/beauty-appreciating/etc person at all.

yeah, that's the short answer

since i cannot select an option in earnest i'll do my best to briefly explain why--plus i really want to read what others said, but i always post first (i wonder if that's actually a good idea...).

anyway: i do have an ever-evolving idea of an architecture of something called eidos (you can look up the greek, but you'd want to check out husserl for a better picture of what i'm talking about as this is really a phenomenological and not a strict rational/empirical term.

anyway, have you seen large representations of molecules? perhaps in a chemistry or other science class (or in a science textbook)? you know how there are the spheres and the connecting rods? this is my best analogy for what i mean by the structure of experience. not insofar as being material building blocks--not at all, actually--but the requisite structure making possible all experience (i'm talking *everything* about our experience including every possible past, present and future 'thing'--again i am not suggesting all experience is material/empirical because i mean not everything *in* our experience, but what makes experience possible).

ok, sorry, go back to the molecular structure (or like the frame in a house, but not a material house--but not an immaterial house either) and consider what architecture, what structure, undergirds/makes possible (i could go on with the options for how to frame this, but i'll rein it in) 'possible experience'.

now consider that those rods in the structure of experience, i argue, have some necessary frameworks that have facets/modes, sort of (think of how light is both a particle and a wave and the idea is analogous). that 'necessary framework' of experience is 'eidos' or an 'eidetic structure of experience'.

i propose that *an* example of 'eidos' in/of the framework of our experience is, loosely termed, what i'll call 'goods' (intrinsic goods, to be more specific). it's instantiations are not necessarily defined a priori, it's multifaceted, and it's *constantly* in question (or you've just accepted something called dogma--anathema to philosophical inquiry).

if by 'ideal' you mean something like the eidetic structure i call (intrinsic)'good', then yes.

'good' as a structural infusion has these different facets that we'd call 'justice', 'beauty', 'right' (in an ethical sense) and other values that are overall considered 'good in themselves' (i.e. not as a means to an end/utilitarian) in nature. now, i would say i have a notion of the eidetic 'good' without a doubt. the problem with using the term 'ideal' is that is connotes stasis (an effete concept of what falls within its parameters).

another way of thinking about this is that my 'good' is a structural infusion of experience that we may express in action, response, manifestation of characteristics, etc, etc, etc, but it is not fixed. or, if it is, i am not 100% certain that i or anyone else can accurately define it and i cannot conceive of being able rest on that authority--although, i am open to the possibility (just as hume said it is possible that he could throw a lump of coal in a fire and it would not burn. unlikely, but possible...).

here's why: i spend, literally, the bulk of every single day testing what i think could account for our experience on a structural level by proposing problems, counter-examples, considering rebuttals, incorporating new information, etc, etc, etc.

side note: no, i'm not blowing off my actual job to do this all of the time. i'm essentially a professional philosopher, which translates in contemporary society to absent-minded university professor.

back to the question at hand, yes, i do have an architecture of 'good' mapped out and i propose (and could provide a reasoned defense of that position) that in action/response/characteristic it is possible to express that architecture.

i even have reason to think i may have expressed it myself on occasion and may do so again. i could, though, be wrong on what constitutes expression as that's where i think my dynamism really pushes back against calling it an 'ideal' self.

although i've consistently aligned myself with many elements of phenomenology, and the notion of eidetic structures making possible our experience is, perhaps, foremost in that respect, my skepticism will not admit of a fixed, specific instantiation of 'good' as being *the* correct one (so many counters to consider and information to process).

one thing i will say, for certain, is that much like my ideas on possible expression of 'good' evolve with further contemplation, so, too, i as a person evolve. i think, and certainly perceive, everything moving all of the time and i move too.

so, to sum up this (disturbingly lengthy, i'm sure) further explication of my position:

yes, i do have an ever-evolving grasp on something like what you term 'ideal' which i think informs my actions to the best of my ability (or desire at the moment) and i make attempts in earnest to express what i would call 'good' that i posit is an undergirding structure of experience potentially moving both myself and culture/humanity into something positive.

i don't think i'm as good at execution as i am at brainstorming and testing the conceptual architecture of 'action' and all of the other things i mentioned--yeah, i'm at least that self aware

i often fail, but i rarely don't try at all. overall, no, i'm not 100% satisfied, but i would be unsatisfied with 100% satisfaction. i *need* to have this element of constant questioning and pursuit and testing/challenging/pushing and i hope it never ends in this respect.

as much as i would be desire more orderly, single-track thoughts and less physical hyperactivity, i would be absolutely lost if not in pursuit. the idea of calmly sitting at peace with oneself (the whole zen/meditation/acceptance overall picture) is *completely* foreign to me.

so, while i'm sure i often 'fail' insofar as i may not express beauty, truth, justice, etc, i'm ok with that. of course i fail, really, since there aren't any directions you can be certain of without an appeal to authority or a leap of faith.

this whole thing brings to mind a thread i've completely neglected (stay tuned apsj; that philo thread from months ago will be making a repeat appearance)

oh my gosh; i'll bet this is pages long--and i may have actually quoted my own dissertation at some point... so i'm just going to hit send already.

cheers!

[crossroads]

Peri, I have to ponder over your contribution for a while, it is so much more complex than the simple concepts of Rogers.

[meadd823]

Originally Posted by crossroads

Many people have a clear concept of an Ideal Self as a guideline, how they want to be. Being much like the ideal self makes those people feel good about themselves, perceiving big differences makes them suffer and are a strong intrinsic motivation for them to make efforts to improve themselves.

I like to ask some questions to all ADD persons here.

Do you have a conscious concept of your Ideal Self?

1. No, this never really occured to me or bothered me.
2. Yes, and I suffer from not living up to it, but there is nothing, that I can do.
3. Yes, and when I notice big differences to my real behaviour, this motivates me to attempt to improve myself.
4. Yes, but I avoid comparing my real behaviour with it to avoid pain.
5. Yes, and I consider myself being not much different.
6. Yes, I consider myself being not much different, while other people disagree in their feedback.

Originally Posted by crossroads

Thanks for commenting and thanks for voting.

In my understanding, a poll is an instrument to find out, from a neutral point of view, what people think or do. It is not any way implying, that any of the alternatives are good or bad, right or wrong.

Here is a bit more information:
http://facultyweb.cortland.edu/ander...GERS/self.html

(I had hoped, that my ADD SO could be motivated to treat me better, if I could make him add unselfishness to his ideal self. I asked him to consciously decide not to be selfish anymore. It did not work, he left instead.)

Please, more votes.

Personal note - in future check ADD/ADHD member card before responding..

You posted the initial post as if you were seeking this knowledge for you so you could apply it to your own life In a sense it now seems like you were posting as if you were contemplating these ideas FOR your husband {some ones queasy stomach was on target apparently}

Wow - How strange I do not think I have ever seen such overt enmeshment - in writing before.

Novelty over . . .

Okay what was I saying oh


First and foremost I would like to know

Who are you to determine the correctness of some one else's values or self image?? To even consider having said ability , then attempt to justify is pretty darn presumptuous {IMHO}

You are not entitled to dictate to another human being what they can and can not value - You may determine your own values you can change yourself if you are lucky but others are free to be who they chose to be

You either take them or leave them the way they are – People are not playdoh subject to your molding according to your own reality

Gary values farm implements I trip over them , I do not value farm implements like he does I do not have to. I respect his rights to assign value and determine self hood.

I value cats Gary trips over them , he does not value cats like I do and he doesn't have to all he has to do is respect my rights to assign value and determine self hood.

When discussing expectations you never said any thing about adopting his ideas of values nor did you mention any plans regarding modifying your ideal self to live up to his expectations



It is one thing to share a common direction as in both partners what to have children, live in this or that city, maybe even attend shared spiritual associations However expectations such as what duties and responsibilities will be "assigned" each spouse, is a process of mutual negotiation it is not a single party dictatorship


Life is and always will be a two way street - He did the right thing and left so you could find some one willing to put up with these imposed expectations

This has nothing to do with his or our ADD/ADHD it has to do with some variety of emotional enmeshment and sense of entitlement which can be caused by any number of things.

Good luck hope it works out for all concerned

[crossroads]

I did not mean to mislead anybody. My attempt was to find an answer from a neutral point of view: What attitude do ADD people have about the concept of the Ideal Self, which is not my invention, but comes from Carl Rogers.

I learned something from the answers on the poll. I did not hide my goal to compare my SO's behaviour with the result of the poll.

When two persons get to know each other online and spend months in exploring each other before meeting, things are very different from the normal dating, falling in love before having sufficient knowledge about each other, so that they need to compromise more. Online, one can make a real good choice, and one can be very explicit and take the other's criteria and values for very serious or end the contact.

from the other thread:

He agreed on some basic common values, like basing all decision upon agreement, BEFORE we even considered to meet. I had explicitly told him my concept of a relationship, it was very clearly stated in my profile on the dating site. When I contacted him, he had the liberty to read my profile and tell me, that he disagrees with my concept and my values, and good luck to me.
He had the opportunity to negotiate for compromises, before deciding to meet, before getting involved.
But to first accept shared values and get involved, and afterwards behave in violation of what he had accepted and demand a compromise is not correct and not fair.

[peripatetic]

holy sh*t i really need to start reading threads *before* i respond to them!

crossroads: i just saw your poll (which, i'll admit, i'm a sucker for the polls...) and thought, 'do i have a notion of an ideal self and, if so, how satisfied am i with how well i 'measure' up to it?' i ran with it and ended up talking about something that likely has *zero* bearing on your seemingly complex situation.

my apologies. i didn't really address whatever you're dealing with at all. furthermore, i don't think i can as i'm just not well-versed on your situation with the online stuff and the partner issue that seems like it's been on numerous threads, etc, etc, etc.

now that i've read the majority of these posts, however, i realize there's a lot going on here that i don't even think i understand...certainly don't get a lot of these references and not sure i want to read all those other threads as this just doesn't sound like an arena where i'll be able to make a constructive contribution.

all i can possibly offer is that i seriously cannot fathom requesting someone to alter themselves for me. even the notion of consent (another agreeing to specific values/roles/whatever) gets really dicey when the fact is that people evolve and people also have emotional responses that may cloud their judgement in such agreements and/or give them a less-than-solid grasp of their own abilities.

i can assure you that adhd doesn't make you not want to do things, but it *can* limit your ability to execute them. with the utmost sincerity i have often said i'd do/be x,y,z. it's not that i'm being deceitful and it isn't for lack of desire.

sometimes wanting something isn't sufficient to make it happen. i mean, who among us has never, ever desired something essentially unattainable? i'm sure diabetics don't *want* to require insulin...for example.

anyway, again, sorry as i jumped into a discussion without really knowing all of this background, which seems requisite to a proper response.