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Old 06-15-07, 12:52 AM
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Research, about ADD = normal not necessarily healthy

I get an e-mail from the dude that runs this web site help for ADD.com

Source of origin as usual they want money

Yes I cheated. . .in through the out door my favorite ,.but legally of coarse thus the long introduction. Just think movie credits and you'll be fine. I always give proper credit to the studies I choose to pick apart. . . .I am after all a critic with morals.

Below is a partial of one of the studies I received with this months {maybe it was last months} subscription. So I do not disrupt the flow of the article any more than I already have I have underlined the parts of interest and placed a number next to that portion My comments about that area appear below and are corresponding according to numbers. Clear as mud right. . . . now for that medication effectiveness testing.
.

__________________________________________________ ______________________

Participants were 40 9- to 12- year old girls diagnosed with ADHD and 40 comparison girls without ADHD. Among the girls with ADHD, 22 met criteria for the combined type of ADHD (i.e., they had high rates of both inattentive and hyperactive-impulsive symptoms) while the remained were diagnosed with the inattentive type of ADHD (i.e., high rates of inattentive symptoms only). Twenty-two of the girls with ADHD also met criteria for a diagnosis of Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Almost all of these girls were from the ADHD Combined type group; the vast majority of girls with ADHD only were of the inattentive type. {1}

The researchers were interested in comparing the levels of prosocial and aggressive behavior of girls with and without ADHD and they used a variety of measures to do this. Before summarizing these measures, it is important to note that they chose to examine 2 types of aggression: overt aggression and relational aggression.

Overt aggression is the type of aggression that tends to be common among boys and involves physically aggressive behavior, intimidation, and threats. This is the type of aggression that boys employ to bully others and establish themselves in the dominance hierarchy.

Relational aggression, in contrast, refers to behaviors that are intended to harm or disrupt the victims' relationships with peers and is evident in gossiping or social exclusion. A child is engaging in relational aggression when she/he spreads rumors about a peer to damage that peer's social reputation, attempts to turn others against a peer, or deliberately excludes a child from social activities. Although the evidence remains somewhat equivocal, there are indications that relational aggression is more common among school age girls than boys, perhaps because girls tend to place greater value on intimacy and group belongingness. In contrast to overt aggression, relational aggression is more subtle and difficult to observe, and is therefore less accessible to parents and teachers.


Observational Measure - The unique aspect of this study was the use of an clever paradigm to collect observational data on girls' aggressive and prosocial behavior. Girls were brought into the lab and given the choice to play a computer game called the "Girls Club!". Each girl was told that the game was developed for girls their age to play with each other and that she would be playing on-line with 2 other girls who were in other rooms and who she would meet at the end of the game. In reality, however, no other girls would be playing; instead, the moves and comments (see below) of the "other" players were simulated and pre-programmed to be the same for every participant.{2}

As noted above, all moves and dice rolls were predetermined by the computer. The participant always "won the game" and was appointed "Girl's Club President". This gave her the right to make decisions about her "co-players" that each girl was told would be provided to future presidents to aid in their selection of who to play with. Thus, each girl could indicate who to include or exclude in future games and could provide information about what the other girls were like and how good a friend they would be. This provided an opportunity to assess overtly aggressive and relationally aggressive comments. Girls were led to believe that the ratings of their peers collected after the game would not be shared with the other players.

Messages that girls sent at the Chat Centers, as well as the comments about other girls that were collected after the game, were coded into the following categories:

Overt Aggression - harmful/destructive messages that threatened, bossed or taunted; e.g., "shut up", "Ha, Ha, look like you lost!"

Relational Aggression - harmful/destructive messages that manipulated the victim's relationship with another player; e.g., "Don't tell her but I don't like her very much, do you?"

Prosocial - skilled and friendly messages; e.g., good game to everyone," "I really like playing with you guys.

Awkward - comments that were out of synch with social expectations; e.g., out-of-the-blue comments that did not fit into the flow of normal social exchange such as "I like fish," "Volleyball is a fun sport".

All messages were coded into 1 of these 4 mutually exclusive categories and the number of messages in each category was tallied to create a score in that category for each participant. In addition to this coding, the intensity of each message was rated on a 1 to 5 scale. For example, in the overt aggression category, the message "I'm going to win!" would receive a score of 1 while the message "I'm going to spit on you!" would receive a score of 5. Intensity scores were averaged within each category.


Results -

Overt Aggression - Comparisons between girls with ADHD+ODD, ADHD only, and control girls for overt aggression were made for parent and teacher ratings as well as for the messages sent in the computer game. On all 4 measures, girls with ADHD+ODD were more aggressive than girls with ADHD alone who, in turn, were more aggressive than girls in the control group.

Relational Aggression - According to mothers' reports, girls with ADHD+ODD displayed higher rates of relational aggression than girls with ADHD alone, and girls with ADHD alone were seen as more relationally aggressive than girls in the control group. For teacher ratings, girls with ADHD+ODD were more aggressive than girls in both other groups who did not differ significantly from each other.

On the lab task, girls in the control group sent fewer relationally aggressive messages than both groups of girls with ADHD. However, the intensity of the relationally aggressive messages was actually higher for girls in the control group than for girls with ADHD alone. After being appointed "president" girls with ADHD+ODD were more prone to suggest excluding peers from future games than girls in the other groups. For rumor spreading, girls with ADHD only spread significantly fewer rumors than girls in the control group.

Prosocial Behavior - According to mothers' reports, girls with ADHD+ODD were less prosocial than girls with ADHD alone, who, in turn, were seen as less prosocial than girls in the comparison group. Teachers reported that girls with ADHD+ODD were less prosocial than girls in both other groups, who did not differ significantly from each other.

On the simulated computer game, both groups of girls with ADHD sent fewer prosocial message than girls in the control group.

Awkward Behavior - Interestingly, girls with ADHD alone were judged to send more socially awkward messages than girls in the other two groups. The intensity of their "awkwardness" was also judged to be higher.


** The Contribution of ODD symptoms, hyperactive-impulsive symptoms, and inattentive symptoms to girls' social behavior **

As a supplementary analysis, the authors examined the relative contribution of 3 types of symptoms - oppositional behavior, hyperactivity, and inattention - to the different types of social behavior rated in the study.

Girls' level of overt aggression was related to their ODD symptoms and hyperactive-impulsive symptoms, but not to their level of inattentive symptoms. Findings for girls' relational aggression were more mixed, with ODD, hyperactive, and inattentive symptoms all predicting relational aggression


Girls who were higher in ODD symptoms were seen as less prosocial by mothers, teachers, and in the lab task. Hyperactivity was related too less prosocial behavior only during the lab task, and inattention was not related to prosocial behavior on any of the measures.{3}

Finally, for awkward behavior in the lab task, only inattentive symptoms emerged as a significant predictor.

Summary and Implications -

Results from this study indicate that girls with ADHD+ODD were more overtly and relationally aggressive and less prosocial than girls without either disorder, with girls having ADHD only falling in between these girls and girls without ADHD.

It was especially noteworthy that compared to girls in the control group, girls with ADHD only showed less frequent prosocial behavior, more overt aggression, more frequent relationally aggressive messages, and more awkward social interactions. Thus, even when not accompanied by significant oppositional behavior, ADHD was significantly associated with lower levels of social competence in girls. Because girls were not taking medication at the time of the lab assessment, the degree to which these differences might be alleviated by medication treatment is not clear.

One apparently paradoxical finding was that girls with ADHD only showed more frequent relationally aggressive messages than girls in the control group, but these messages were rated as being less intense. They also engaged in less rumor spreading than girls in the control group. {4}To explain these apparently contradictory results, the authors suggest that relational aggression that involves planning and organizational skills (e.g., gossiping and spreading rumors to damage another child's reputation) may be less common in girls with ADHD because they lack the planning and executive functioning skills that this behavior requires. Thus, they may have been less able to generate the kinds of rumors about peers that were judged to be of an intense nature. {5}


If, however, relational aggression takes the form of a rash and angry response to a conflict, girls with ADHD may engage in more of it than other girls because of their greater tendency to act impulsively.{6} Future research should thus look more closely at the type of relational aggression that girls with ADHD tend to display. {7}


The authors also call attention to the findings pertaining to socially awkward behavior, something that has not been examined in prior research. They suggest that the inattentive nature of ADHD can make it difficult for children to accurately track ongoing conversational exchance, and may explain why girls with ADHD sent more tangential and awkwardly appearing messages.

In summary, results from this interesting study add to current knowledge of the social difficulties of girls with ADHD by highlightng a pattern of social behavior that includes higher rates of relational aggression, reduced prosocial behavior, and higher rates of socially awkward behavior. When accompanined by ODD, increase in overt aggression are also prominent. As with all studies in which children with ADHD are compared to other children, it is important to recognize that not all children in the ADHD group displayed the behavioral deficits and excesses that were found to characterize the group as a whole.{8}

__________________________________________________ ________________________


{1}Okay I am dyslexic and the English in this part is confusing to me, were a majority of the girls combined or inattentive? The world may never know.


{2} Let not pass up the notation here that this study began with a lie. . . I hate lying it is so dishonest. I am to be getting honest result from those who begin with dishonestly {okay what ever}


{3} Gee could it be we socialize better when moving - duh. . .how many years did this take to figure out {geez}


{4} So ADD girls didn't spread as many rumors as those who were NT/ they weren't as vicious about the relational aggression as non-ADD girls = This is a deficit. . . .gee what the world needs is more of this deficit.


{5} Yet to show the bias of science - remember this is closer to first hand than the subsequent articles produced which will of coarse add more bias. . . .it couldn't be rumors and gossip are unhealthy activities and the ADD children are closer to being functional? Oh no that would screw up trhe entire system. . . . .Naturally they blame it on attentional planning issues . . . goes to show you no amount of schooling can teach common sense. . . . which dictates gossiping is un-healthy and basically dysfunctional activity.


{6} The other perception is ADD girl are more likely to tell you like it is and less likely to BS with moronic mind games. . . . again society could use more of this "abnormality" The fact that gossip is considered pro-social should be cause of more concern that ADD girls being "impulsively honest"

Also note worth in italics is that only inattentive symptoms were associated with awaked social statements not impulsivity. . . yet conclusions tend to not differient this. . . .Again the dyslexic brain goes wtf. . . . . .man in white coat speaks with non-sense logic.


{7} May be the money could be better spent to try and figure out why gossip and malicious behavior is considered "pro-social" or even normal.


{8} Would a fair conclusion be only a few of the ADD children displayed the characteristics we are basing our conclusion on? , . . . . Huh if this isn't some thing seen in the majority of ADD children behavior the importance of this study would be ???? I thought I was dysfunctional

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This concludes another research study alternative commentary by a dyslexic ADDer . . . . with a brain who does not believe any thing much less every thing claimed by main stream . . . . . too much bias for my taste.

Maybe I should have put this in the scientific area. . .maybe not I shall think about it and possible move it later. . . .Hmmmm is this general ADD or scientific ADD or generally scientific ADD, Crud, I really suck at categories. . .thank God for Highfunctioning.
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  #2  
Old 06-16-07, 12:48 PM
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I had a ODD GF ounce, it was a pretty interisting relationship

My head is swimming in fog as thick as gravy after reading all that @.@
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Old 06-16-07, 02:10 PM
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I lost interest after reading that the ADHD girls selected for the study were also diagnosed with "ODD". Why didn't they do a study with girls with both ADHD and ODD, girls with ADHD, and girls with neither for the control group? Is high school science that advanced that thirteen year olds already know this?
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Old 06-17-07, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Why didn't they do a study with girls with both ADHD and ODD, girls with ADHD, and girls with neither for the control group?
I an effort to shorten the presentation as people here tend to have short attention spans I am have cut off some information. . .nope I included this part. . .

There were 40 girls in all 22 of the girls with ADHD also met criteria for a diagnosis of Oppositional Defiant Disorder. . . . . .leaving 18 with ADD only. . . . .


. . .plus English may have been the article's writters second language. . . . .not sure the last line of the first paragraph had me going wtf?



Quote:
Originally Posted by article
Almost all of these girls were from the ADHD Combined type group; the vast majority of girls with ADHD only were of the inattentive type.
How much does this make sense, it might be my dyslexia playing tricks on me again.
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Old 06-17-07, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meadd823
How much does this make sense, it might be my dyslexia playing tricks on me again.
Relax, girlfriend, it's bad science, not dyslexia, that's the problem.
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Old 06-17-07, 02:42 AM
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Relax, girlfriend, it's bad science, not dyslexia, that's the problem
Oh well that is a relief. . . . nothing worse than bad dyslexic science reading. . . . . . !

This study and other like it is what makes me soooooo MAD, toooooo much bad science associated with the study of ADD . . . careless methodology . . .used to justify stigmas and basic stupidity

My personal reason for publically picking these things apart because so many will believe any thing claiming to be science but not really pay attention to how the conclusions are being made, teh study is designed or what is actually being said.
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Old 06-17-07, 09:16 AM
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My brain started warping at your #1 point, and I checked out, if a "simple" statement has to be picked apart to be understood, the rest of the article is gonna call for something within me I don't have!
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Old 06-17-07, 09:27 AM
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Hehe, funny sceintests don't know what theyre doing....

hehe, your shure dis is a real ADD~test!?

Lookie~look!

Quote:
Participants were 40 9- to 12- year old girls diagnosed with ADHD and 40 comparison girls without ADHD
half~half are Add / no add, but all togeather it is GIRLS!

Hehe, this is a study on funny girls, not Adhd!

Silly scientists included Adhd Girls in thier little experI~ment!

Studying girls silly behavior!
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Old 06-18-07, 05:41 AM
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My brain started warping at your #1 point, and I checked out, if a "simple" statement has to be picked apart to be understood, the rest of the article is gonna call for something within me I don't have!

I didn't have to consciously pick it apart it was reading the sentence yet left wondering were most of the girls combined ADD or inattentive ADD, You can be one or the other but not both. Reading in context means I assimilate the entire sentence at once I do not decode individual words, so if I read a sentence telling me the sub-type of a majority of the participants but I am unable to determine this afterwords then some one has screwed some thing up some where.

I think it was meant to read a majority of the girls were ADD combined with ODD however the girls with ADD only were mostly inattentive. In reality that is making a lot of assumptions which I am also having to use prior knowledge to ascertain. I happen to already know that being combined ADD increases a child's chances of having co-morbid ODD. Inattentive ADD nor hyperactive ADD doesn't increase the child's chances of having ODD, only having the combined sub-type is shown to increase the chances of also having ODD. Also simply knowing the symptoms and experiences of inattentive ADDers from reading their posting here would make this logical.


I am not sure what it is you feel you do not have but apparently it happens in me naturally {shrug} I simply notice a lot of stuff when I read, some times I notice too much.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhan
your shure dis is a real ADD~test!?
The second hyperlink goes to the abstract which also gives the source of the publication from which this study appeared. Yes this is an actual research project which was published in Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology, Volume 35, Number 2, April 2007 , pp. 239-250(12)

I included two hyperlinks, the first to show where I originally found the information the second is to show the actual orgin of this piece of work, To use this article without this information is to violate copy right. Some that is against the guidelines.

The fact it appears in a professonal physchology publication is very scary stuff . . . . . . .
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Old 06-18-07, 09:12 AM
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Question: who funded the study?
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Old 03-11-08, 01:13 PM
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Re: Research, about ADD = normal not necessarily healthy

ODD is just a nicer term for CD (conduct disorder).

Most CDers are abused kids or stress "challenged" kids who have gone thru serious and often early adversity (attachment/bonding disruption/parental absence/loss (even figurative), living with a mentally ill ceregiver, serious deprivation/neglect/poverty, abuse, incarcerated family member, antisocial parent, traumatized parent, or substance abusing family member, sexism, etc etc) -- esp. early in life (during developmentally 'sensitive' or 'critical' periods).

Typically they'd be kids who have all of the bad (antisocial or incompetent parents or circumstances) and none of the good (no sports, no perks, no camp, no role models, no 'lessons', no resiliency-creating factors)

CD and ODD are called Externalizing Disorders. You may have heard of the term(-->"Acting out".)

Internalizing Disorders would be stuff like somatization (headaches, stomach aches), anxiety, withdrawal, depression, etc. (AKA --> 'Acting in'.)

So these kids are 'acting out' the bullying they learned and endured in their core family homes.
(Ironically, their victims may be those who are shy and withdrawn and socially isolated -- with the "Internalizing disorders" aka Acting IN. Easy prey, right?)

Antisocial families tend to raise antisocial kids who bully, (and who have other problems with Affective and Cognitive Fx: can't learn/concentrate/act impulsively/emotional extremes/fail to be stress 'innoculated'), etc.

Not to be a smart ***, but this study is full of pretty typical findings, in terms of psychopathology ('mental disease').
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Old 02-21-12, 04:24 AM
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Re: Research, about ADD = normal not necessarily healthy

So I agree with Imnapl (sp?) about: Why not girls with ADD + ODD (CD), girls with ADHD combined, ADHD inattentive, and non-adhd or ODD. Of course, you would also need to add in girls with ONLY ODD if you wanted to figure anything out from these groups.

The scientists are not saying that gossip and betrayal are "prosocial" behaviours. These are seen as dysfunctional all around. But that girls with ADHD + ODD use these behaviours most.

A pretty lame study, though. Why not study something useful? I mean really... Girls with Oppositional Defiant Disorder aren't helpful? They don't get along very well with adults or teachers? Not exactly cutting edge stuff. I could spend those research dollars much better.
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Old 02-22-12, 02:11 AM
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Re: Research, about ADD = normal not necessarily healthy

There are a lot of lame sloppy studies out there not to mention the misquoting of decent study factor often used by main stream media to make sensational head lines and articles of misinformation.
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Old 02-22-12, 02:24 AM
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Re: Research, about ADD = normal not necessarily healthy

in looking over this thread i was reminded of a post by dizfriz about the distinction between conduct disorder and ODD. they are NOT the same and the latter is NOT a precursor to the former: http://www.addforums.com/forums/show...at#post1177026
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Old 02-22-12, 07:51 AM
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Re: Research, about ADD = normal not necessarily healthy

I wrote this before I saw peripatetic's post. I think understanding the differences is good information even if a little off topic so I will post this to further clarify.


Quote:
Originally Posted by QueensU_girl View Post
ODD is just a nicer term for CD (conduct disorder).
Not really. They are very different in magnitude and many of the characteristics..

Something that I often use as an example:

ODD kids may drive you nuts but CD kids could nail the family cat to the barn door and set it on fire.

Some quick descriptions just to clarify:

Conduct Disorder: A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated.

Oppositional Defiant Disorder: A recurrent pattern of negativistic, defiant, disobedient, and hostile behavior toward authority figures.

ODD often goes away with time while CD usually doesn't and can move on to psychopathology or antisocial disorder.

ODD is often connected with ADHD in children. When the ADHD is treated, the ODD often goes away.

Just as information, AntiSocial Disorder: A pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood and a history or symptoms of Conduct Disorder before age 15.

A small thing but I felt that it needed some discussion.

Dizfriz
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