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Old 08-10-18, 01:24 AM
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A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

We are often told that ADHD is a "dopamine deficiency disorder"- which is somewhat paradoxical as one of the very effective medications for it is atomoxetine (Strattera).

However the whole Neurotransmitter model of psychiatric disorders is flawed and has been right from the start. It is more a marketing ploy driven by Pharmaceutical interest.

Quote:

There's no evidence that there's a chemical imbalance in depressed or anxious peoples brains (the same applies to other disorders). The term doesn't really make sense, we don't know what a chemicaly balanced brain would look like"
( Prof Joanna Moncrieff, Psychiatrist University College of London).



In the end all these psychiatric problems are expressed in functional loops involving multiple centres of the format:





Cortex--> striatum (BG)-- pallidum (BG) -->Thalamus --->Cortex
(BG = Basal Ganglia)


Some of the major networks include the

Default Mode Network (busiest when we are doing nothing, associated with thinking planning and ruminating. Activity decreases with ongoing meditation and anxiety levels decrease)

Dorsal attention network (Where is the object and how to handle it)

ventral attention network
Visual Network What is the object, how is it relevant, is it rewarding or threatening Related to the salience network)

Additional loops involving 4 cortical areas and subcortical structures/.
ie Prefrontal Cortex ---> Pontine Nuclei --> cerebellum --> Thalamus --> Cortex.


and other loops connecting basal ganglia to the subcortical areas- in which incoming information is processed and fed into the cortex.



Virtually all of these circuits involve most neurotransmitters,
so the "neurotransmitter model" does not work well because it is not all that specific. Very often it is not a question of what neurotransmitter is not working well a where it is not working well, and why is it not doing its job at that location, where it is fine elsewhere.

So to take a specific example- Parkinson's is a disorder of a genuine deficiency in dopamine- but actually the deficiency is in cells originating in the substantia nigra ( Basal Ganglia) and the deficiency is of cells because there is damage there. So that "dopamine deficiency" manifests as a movement disorder, related to the movement disorders that are caused by drugs that antagonise dopamine (antipsychotics causing tardive dyskinesia).

However "dopamine deficiency has also been blamed for ADHD.


Equally-it is hard to blame specific areas for the dysfunction: the areas of the prefrontal cortex that are underactive in the PFC in ADHD are part of one of those loops and their underactivity may reflect an issue in any one of those structures or even of the input structures. So while having the input of say dexamphetamine which increases the efficacy of dopamine noradrenaline and serotonin release usually helps us, the benefit may come about from just providing more push in one part of the loop.

From the point of view of ADHD,
Attention is an orienting response and that response is mediated by loops between the basal ganglia and the subcortical structures (brainstem nuclei and cerebellum involved in processing incoming information to the brain.
One part of that orienting response is sensory integration
So issues such as unstable attention and sensory processing disorder can occur without direct involvement of the cortico- basal ganglia- thalamic loops. However disturbances in either sensory inputs or initial subcortical processing of these inputs could well produce a disturbance that could show up in particular frontal regions- because of the atypical inputs.

The real take home message of all this is that although psychostimulants are so helpful for us, that does not necessarily imply an issue with the neurotransmitter production, and that although the first regional abnormalities shown in brain function were frontal lobe underactivity, that does not necessarily imply that that underactivity is a primary problem.

These models have been used by some to cite a scientific basis for stimulant use in ADHD, but frankly I think that is unnecessary- the real basis for using them is that they work.
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Old 08-11-18, 01:46 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunga Dorji View Post
We are often told that ADHD is a "dopamine deficiency disorder"- which is somewhat paradoxical as one of the very effective medications for it is atomoxetine (Strattera).
dopamine -> reward
dopamine ->precursor to-> noradrenaline

noradrenaline <- 'fight or flight'
dopamine <- '................speed'

General pattern we need enough but not too much.


If an ADDer takes too much dexedrine - the 'relaxation' shifts into 'stimulation' - currently observing gum blood vessel constriction and blood vessel constriction in hands (pin pricking sensation)


Noadrenaline.

Endocrine nor/adrenaline

Neurotransmitter Nor/adrenaline

Fast -> SNS Neurotransmitter Nor/adrenaline <- higher brain <- Peripheral's sensory
Peripheral's emotional
Slower -> Endocrine nor/adrenaline <- lower brain <- Peripheral's homeostatic


Higher (informational) -> EMOTIONAL <- Lower (homeostatic)
Neocortex -> Mid-brain <- Brainstem


Information -> 'feeling good' <- Chemistry
Too much -> distress <- Non-physiological foods
information

--noradrenaline
SNS overused
- resistance syndrome



ADHD meds work by restoring noradrenaline functioning - but too much and the system 'speeds' - the line between paradoxical effect and actual effect.


Personal observation is that 5 mg dexedrine now results in unpleasant sympathomimetic effects on blood vessel constriction (cotton wool mouth).


Very similar dry mouth to the feeling of stress at interview ie no saliva.


Quote:
Research shows that fasting can help lower blood pressure

Quote:
during fasting, glucagon and epinephrin levels rise and stimulate hunger.



Increase endocrine adrenaline - CHEMISTRY [under stimulated] -- reduce blood pressure
--> health

Decrease SNS adrenaline - INFORMATION [over stimulated] -- reduce blood pressure


What're we doing in current society ?
Undercranking adrenal NA/A

Overcranking SNS NA/A


What is dopamine ?
If the brain is an information recognition through learning unit


It is the reward for learning (creative extension) to recognize information


Once the 'reward' is obtained - presumably we're propelled (noradrenaline) towards more of it.



So - we obtain reward on aha! moment and reward on anticipation of aha! moment - representing the 2 modes of operation of dopamine.


Reward anticipation - the idea that the brain anticipates a recognition event ?
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Old 08-11-18, 02:01 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Takehome message


In effect eating food (takeaway type) makes you stupid.


We evolved such that as we went into food restriction - we developed heightened sensory capacity - to facilitate survival -


- this heightened information recognition capacity shifted from the basis to survival (avoid predation) into the reason for survival (elegance in all contexts) in man (with mind).
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Old 08-11-18, 02:36 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

There is some research called "When Fear Is Near", and some Temple Grandin's research, and other researchers that discuss biologically how our brain develops in a use it or loss it manner.

Epigenetically inherited "Subterranean anxieties" can emerge in lower areas of the brain, 3-5 generations before conception and the age *4, in our brainstem/midbrain area.

Before the age of 4*, ....when the lower biological systems meant to promote survival are mildly chronically , moderately chronically and severely chronically exercised, the biological systems in lower brainstem/midbrain where anxious temperaments originate become stronger.

If the same person does not experience anxiety, areas and connections between the brainstem/midbrain and the evolving higher human prefrontal cortex would get more exercise.

The environmental goal is to have balance of exercise between lower affective areas and higher cognitive areas, before birth and the age of 7*.





M
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Old 08-11-18, 03:08 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Kunga Kanga Dorji,

What was the name of the doctor that's name starts with an "M" who discusses about recognizing neurological body and brain development before the age of 4*?




M
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Old 08-11-18, 03:21 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

The author of "Disconnected Kids"?



M
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Old 08-11-18, 04:04 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Food restriction is emulated in ketosis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally Pongo's commercial site
Prolon

This fasting with food meal plan is low in carbohydrates and proteins and contains good fatty acids.

You're being sold fresh air.


Fasting diet - eliminate non complex carbs and protein.
Will you be OK ? Yes cf chappy who fasted for 400 days.
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Old 08-11-18, 04:09 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Before the age of 7.
After the age of 7.

Working parents feed their kids junk.
Quote:

At weekends we cook but it’s very much dominated by what the kids like: pasta and pizza.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...ink-about-work
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Old 08-11-18, 04:15 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Optimal diet ?
So as not to trigger homeostatic stress would be complex carb/low GI veggie only + certain type of fat potentially.


- just poor in protein + GI elevating carbs.


If we start off down the protein/carbs route then we can't develop the higher (properly human) reward system of learning.


Ketone bodies promote neural development towards personal quality.
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Old 08-11-18, 05:28 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunga Dorji View Post
- the real basis for using them is that they work.
So dopamine release [reward anticipation] precursor to action [epinephrine] and reward acquisition.


Knock out dopamine Knock out epinephrine.


Epinephrine is the 'force' which gets us out of procrastination.


No 'reward' ie no perceived benefit - no dopamine - no epinephrine - no can do.


Meds force dopamine force epinephrine - the housewife enjoys dull housework - reward - engagement ie breaking the inactivity threshold is possible.


Survival is more or less dependent on two things money and food where generally money buys food.


Higher reward is based around 'learning'.



No reward from generating money.
Reward from learning even if it severely jeopardises your chances of survival.


This is ADD.


We can't break our reward system.


Or in plain English (as it's a social reward system) - gotta' do the right thing (personal neocortical quality forsaking all (materialism) else).

Medicine needs to see the brain as an information handling device which is getting better at handling device given a certain metabolic background.
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Old 08-11-18, 05:38 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ View Post
personal neocortical quality forsaking all (materialism) else
contrast with
Chomsky

'Gain Wealth, Forgetting All But Self' and 'The Masters of Mankind want us to become the "stupid nation," in the interests of their short-term [weight] gain [and premature demise to diabesity complications]'
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Old 08-11-18, 01:07 PM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunga Dorji View Post
We are often told that ADHD is a "dopamine deficiency disorder"- which is somewhat paradoxical as one of the very effective medications for it is atomoxetine (Strattera).
Strattera is not a "very effective" medication. There's evidence that it's better than placebo, but that doesn't mean it's very effective. It's not.
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Old 08-12-18, 12:02 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesH View Post
Strattera is not a "very effective" medication. There's evidence that it's better than placebo, but that doesn't mean it's very effective. It's not.
You reminded me of the placebo affective effect.

Examples...

Opioid system promotes dopamine system.

Norepinephrine system promotes (?) system.

Dopamine system promotes (?) system.

Anandamide system promotes (?) system.

Etc...




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Old 08-12-18, 02:00 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

If a car's battery does not work then a car's engine will not work.


But you're back around to defining what causes ADHD.


What's the line that nobody can disagree with ?


If we had a world in which all people WANTED to do what they do as opposed to a world in which all people were FORCED to do what they do - then people would naturally choose what makes them feel good in context of other people.


What would people do ? learning (neocortical) - higher reward system - collaboration.
Not
competition for aspects of the 'material'.


Is it useful to try and work out which neurotransmitter is off in ADHD ?


Well - I started 15 years ago with the statement that all that we're sure about is that we can't force ourselves to do anything that our mind does not want to (it refuses to) and dexedrine works. Now I have to remove dexedrine off the table - but the mind retains a mind of its own.


What's the simplest way of explaining this ?


Well - I don't like food (lower reward system) and I can't make myself (ABSOLUTELY CANNOT) pay attention to what my mind does not want to do -


- so I'm stating that there's a simple battle between.


Physical body reward system and Higher reward system - and in ADD with wisdom (ie a model of understanding what is and what is not moral) - we just can't force our mind to do anything.


This was called 'a mind with a mind of its own' by ADDF::MeADD823
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Old 08-12-18, 04:44 AM
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Re: A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?

Quote:
A neurotransmitter disorder or a whole brain disorder?
If we look at the brain as



neocortex ie 'information'

mid brain - emotions ie 'feeling good'

brain stem - homeostasis ie 'food'


Then



true 'learning' or neocortical development as defined by properties associated with neocortex

|
\/

---------------------------------------------> good emotions
/\

|

physiological factor maintenance ie pH,O2,glucose,urea,salt at appropriate level



This process will require neurotransmitters to ensure that the engine works.


First and Foremost comes learning which is supported by lower brain functions.

I'm trying to suggest that if learning is not occurring then the engine breaks.
And that learning fails in the current system of education because the person is not being taught with the end-point of personal quality acquisition in neocortical function, but docility via the same mechanism of reward reinforcement used in Pavlov's dogs.


ie school bell -> certificates -> job -> money -> food


So - we have the primitive (Pavlov's dogs) reward system which can drive behaviour.
And the higher (neocortical quality) which can drive behaviour.


ADD is the drive towards neocortical quality dwevelopment and incapacity to acquire reward from in effect being made to 'sit up and beg' ... ... ... we just can't force our attention into aspects of life which do not result in increasing quality.


So - VERY quality-centric that even when we're about to run out of money - there's no way of shifting attention onto the acquisition of money for survival - because the mind has a mind of its own.


It's as you would expect though - the human brain has functionalities associated.
It would not make any sense to support materialism for any length of time - would only make sense to shift man WHOLLY to informational quality acquisition - because of many reason - most notably - we can ALL have it ALL. IE if the model becomes to develop your own brain/mind - all human beings can do it without owning (use yes but ownership no) any aspect of the material world.


But why don't our supposedly intelligent University academics see all of this.


Sadly University generates people who can see only in 1 direction.


If you can only see in 1 direction (when all that you have is a hammer, everything's a nail) - then you can only apply yourself in one direction.


The neocortex is characterized by:
Quote:
sensory perception, cognition, generation of motor commands, spatial reasoning and language.
And so we should strive (like a tree) to develop all of these qualities.


You do not want one branch building to the detriment of the others - you'd like a rich crown.


A rich neocortical crown.


Great imagery.


Where has medical research gone wrong ? Combination of medicine + physics generates novel technologies to generate data. There's 'belief' that the next tech will solve all of our problems - from Sanger to NGS sequencing - the tech generates data but there's a fundamental problem in that the answer was right in front of us all this time.


As we shift to a 'cell atlas' to understand the neocortex (the Silly Sanger Boys) ... ... ... all that we're required to see is that a certain profile of 'learning' is required in which change (no possibility of reversion) is introduced.


How? Everything resides in the mechanism of rolling out education.
Education currently trains docility ie being trained to repeat what you're told for a pat on the head.


Take away the pat on the head - and let's look at what people CHOOSE to do without ANY requirement for a pat on the head (money).


Quote:
The neocortex is characterized by:
Quote:
sensory perception, cognition, generation of motor commands, spatial reasoning and language.
sensory perception -> PASTIME MUSIC (cf husbands, wives and children)

cognition -> PASTIME SOLVING PROBLEMS (how to find time to do more of meditation ? how to improve efficiency at running ? how to locate a longer running route ? Then mix - how to perform a running meditation for the ultramarathon and beyond)

motor commands -> PASTIME RUNNING/EXERCISE (cf husbands and exercise)

spatial reasoning -> PASTIME BUILDING (cf kids and minecraft)

language -> PASTIME READING (cf wives and reading)


That is - that as long as we eliminate external reward - internal reward (ie becoming better) will triumph.


What is ADHD and connection to thread ?
ADHD represents a higher reward system type-centric brain which can't derive reward from the pat on the head/money which is required to drive activity in this current world.


So - what we do is 'force' ourselves which presumably results in norepinephrine depletion ? and improvement when we add in extra norepinephrine to make up for our depleted levels from over-usage ?


If the individual grinds to a halt in current society through 1 (environmental) defect - then the whole 'car' (every internal system) will appear to be 'broken'.

Quote:

If a car's battery does not work then a car's engine will [appear] not work.
You could call a broken battery engine deficit disorder as it's the main part of a car which is not working (apparently) - but that's not fair if eg there's somebody asleep in the car giving rise to the observation that the car is not moving despite somebody being at the wheel.




ie don't know whether ketosis state should kick in at 30-ish or birth ... ... fast catchup on IUGR could be just because kids being fed junk ie sugar/starch/meat/processed food ... ... valproic acid model and autism suggests mother's in ketosis results in faster track than desired neural development ... ... what should kids be fed ? until ketosis state arises at completion of physical growth ?
I'e no problem with proper food (veggies+fruit+good fats) but that's the vegan ketosis diet ... ... where's the line here ?

So - we know sugar/starch elimination ends tooth decay.

We know that animals don't want to be farmed.
We know of the metabolic killers in animal products - sat fat/cholesterol/caseomorphin

- kids as much as they'd like of proper foods?
- completion of physical growth - ketosis ?
Might work.

I need to go over this idea again - thinking ad libitum proper food in the case of kids which shifts into ketosis (Mount Athos model) employing fasting in adults -

as the basis to solving the current question of how to age healthily.

-*-


The basic takehome message here - is that all that we're sure of in ADHD is that the ADDer can not (actually can not) do what the ADDer's told because the ADDer can't get over the 'reward' threshold - just as Barliman has described in the dopamine component transgenic.


We're intrinsic neocortical quality learning reward centric - and we can't break our reward system. When we try to - we short-circuit our brain - our brain won't allow us to comply - it feels a little as if pressing the accelerator drives our mind from gear into neutral ie we 'space out' at max revs in neutral gear - when forcing ourselves to comply.


Important aspect of this idea is that neocortical quality (learing) is nothing to do with learning in current context which appears to be of the generation of an esoteric language which few people speak ie a model of learning which is autistic in nature in which the goal is to be so 'clever' that nobody understands you when you speak - and simply OBEY.


Academics have been shown by Simon Baron Cohen to have STRONG autistic qualities - there's a real problem here though in that communication is necessary for any finding to be of worth - for any finding to be scrutinised for worth.


Why do we need thousands of papers on ADHD - when a simple analysis of the ADDer will show - what we can an can not pay attention to.


We can pay attention to any aspect of life in which we become neocortically better and not to any aspect of life where we don't.


Essential connection to metabolic (fasted state) link to the development of quality and to the connection between (in effect) being stupid and over-wating (FED state) through generating a true learning-restrictive metabolic environment.


All of this is definitely right - but I'm struggling with whether full on ketosis needs to be held from day. I'd need to look at the metabolic state of the monks on Athos that definitely enjoy ketosis - just need to determine whether it's continuous.


Quote:
Quantitative results showed a 30-fold increase of acetone concentration (5.8 ppmv) compared to control measurements of a volunteer.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16483856
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