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Old 04-25-18, 12:32 PM
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Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Some people are afraid all the time (I am praying that is the case, otherwise I'm one lonely oddball), some have anxiety all the time, some are depressed all the time, etc, etc. I view these as distinct processes, even though I see meds for depression used for anxiety and phobias etc. I view this as very important subject but do not find any material or research on it, or maybe I am missing something. I want to clarify, I am absolutely not against depression meds being used for anxiety, I understand we got to do with what we have (and wish everyone luck), and respectfully realize that science is continuously being developed, but understanding this better is very important to me and my great Psychiatrist does not give me any answers, nor does Google.

In my case, I dont have any depression at all, but I am afraid (abnormally afraid) since birth, so much afraid that all my conditions (in particular my speech problems) I believe emanate from fear, and I have yet to see a person like me, which makes me very alone. I dont have "a" phobia, I have generalized intense fear 24x7, and I really dont believe it is anxiety.

Would there be anyone that has researched or knowledge in this area, please chime. Hoping someone can help here, thanks in advance.
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Old 04-25-18, 04:52 PM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Hi Fathom6

Are you familiar with the triune brain model and the 3 evolutionary processing levels of the brain?

Quote:
Quote:
The triune brain consists of the reptilian complex, the paleomammalian complex (limbic system), and the neomammalian complex (neocortex), viewed as structures sequentially added to the forebrain in the course of evolution.
-Wiki
If not it is okay, I'm trying to figure out where to start the discussion.

EDIT by moderator: please see this thread if you are interested in the whole discussion: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191272




M
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Old 04-25-18, 08:20 PM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

If one has chronic, pervasive, and persistent long term anxiety it does disrupt the cascade balance of neurotransmitters. That is, they all blend together, dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, to make a "perfect soup" if you will. The 'soup' becomes disrupted in long term anxiety and the cascade balance needs to be reset. You need to see psychiatrist who can prescribe medication to address that. They might want to start with an anxiolytic like clonazepam because it is long acting and it sounds like you might need something like that. After a couple of months they may or may not want to prescribe an antidepressant which also addresses anxiety like citalopram. This would reset the cascade balance of neurotransmitters. All in all the anxiolytic would at least give you some immediate relief, then they can reevaluate the possible need to add an antidepressant. Gabaepentin might make you mildly drowsy but it's not really a good anxiolytic for most people
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Old 04-25-18, 10:04 PM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Just get to a really good psychiatrist and tell him what you're experiencing. All of us fall between the cracks of "ideal" diagnoses.

All of us have slight variations of standard conditions ... And the way we subjectively experience life is different for all of us ...

A good psychiatrist has seen it all. Don't get lost in the weeds here ... trust me: you're not some freak of nature ... There is mystery in all of this stuff. Researchers still don't quite know why antidepressants work, for example. The serotonin/chemical imbalance theory that was popular is not what researchers now think causes depression.

So get to a good psychiatrist and explain what's going on ... and start the trial and error process of treatment. If an antidepressant helps you, you take it. If it doesn't you adjust dose or move on to another med. I for example had anxiety that I didn't even notice ... for a long time ...

What led me finally to see my anxiety: when in therapy, I got help and the anxiety declined. Then I could see that I had anxiety all along with my depression.

Bottom line: get to a good psychiatrist. Discuss your concerns with them and begin your treatment. You and the psychiatrist can together over time figure out what meds best help you.

Good luck.

Tone
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Old 04-25-18, 10:34 PM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Quote:
Originally Posted by fathom6 View Post
Some people are afraid all the time (I am praying that is the case, otherwise I'm one lonely oddball), some have anxiety all the time, some are depressed all the time, etc, etc. I view these as distinct processes, even though I see meds for depression used for anxiety and phobias etc. I view this as very important subject but do not find any material or research on it, or maybe I am missing something. I want to clarify, I am absolutely not against depression meds being used for anxiety, I understand we got to do with what we have (and wish everyone luck), and respectfully realize that science is continuously being developed, but understanding this better is very important to me and my great Psychiatrist does not give me any answers, nor does Google.

In my case, I dont have any depression at all, but I am afraid (abnormally afraid) since birth, so much afraid that all my conditions (in particular my speech problems) I believe emanate from fear, and I have yet to see a person like me, which makes me very alone. I dont have "a" phobia, I have generalized intense fear 24x7, and I really dont believe it is anxiety.

Would there be anyone that has researched or knowledge in this area, please chime. Hoping someone can help here, thanks in advance.
I've been diagnosed with GAD - generalized anxiety disorder. Which means
feeling very anxious, afraid, and overly-alert all of the time.

I was 55 years old before a psychiatrist recommended I try a SSRI, which is
an anti-depressant, but as you've noted they're often prescribed for anxiety.

It made a world of difference. I've taken it for about 12 years now and just
recently stopped because of a side-effect, and I'm not doing so well. I need
to call the clinic and talk to the PA about trying a different SSRI that might
not cause this particular side effect.
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Old 05-02-18, 01:01 PM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Thanks all and love you all for taking the time and helping with your experiences. I have a conflicting problem. I have tried a lot of anxiolytics and anti-depressants so far and have had great Psychiatrists. The problem with Anxiolytics and Anti-depressants I find is they "slow" you down. And I am already slow, Adderall / Vyvanse helps me to stay alert and focus and speak, but as soon I take anxiolytic or anti-depressant, its slurs my speech and slows me down. I have come to believe (maybe I am wrong) that "fear" which I have, is DISTINCT from "Anxiety". Maybe 'oxytocin' counters fear more so than serotonin?
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Old 05-06-18, 04:18 AM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

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Originally Posted by ToneTone View Post
The serotonin/chemical imbalance theory that was popular is not what researchers now think causes depression.
Really? Can you share more about this?
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Old 05-06-18, 04:19 AM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Quote:
Originally Posted by fathom6 View Post
Thanks all and love you all for taking the time and helping with your experiences. I have a conflicting problem. I have tried a lot of anxiolytics and anti-depressants so far and have had great Psychiatrists. The problem with Anxiolytics and Anti-depressants I find is they "slow" you down. And I am already slow, Adderall / Vyvanse helps me to stay alert and focus and speak, but as soon I take anxiolytic or anti-depressant, its slurs my speech and slows me down. I have come to believe (maybe I am wrong) that "fear" which I have, is DISTINCT from "Anxiety". Maybe 'oxytocin' counters fear more so than serotonin?
When it comes to medication have you stuck to certain classes of drugs like SSRI's?
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Old 05-11-18, 09:25 PM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Sarah,

I first learned about the turn against the serotonin hypothesis from a story on National Public Radio ... and I've seen references to researchers admitting they have no clue (exaggeration) as to why people really get depressed or why antidepressants work.

Basically there's apparently clear evidence of people with low serotonin ... and they don't suffer depression more than anyone else. There is clearly something biological going on, but apparently serotonin shortage isn't it.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...he-whole-story

Sounds strange, but the truth is there are other conditions out there that people really don't understand what causes them ... or why a treatment works.
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Old 05-13-18, 04:21 AM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Quote:
Originally Posted by fathom6 View Post
Thanks all and love you all for taking the time and helping with your experiences. I have a conflicting problem. I have tried a lot of anxiolytics and anti-depressants so far and have had great Psychiatrists. The problem with Anxiolytics and Anti-depressants I find is they "slow" you down. And I am already slow, Adderall / Vyvanse helps me to stay alert and focus and speak, but as soon I take anxiolytic or anti-depressant, its slurs my speech and slows me down. I have come to believe (maybe I am wrong) that "fear" which I have, is DISTINCT from "Anxiety". Maybe 'oxytocin' counters fear more so than serotonin?
Interesting.

I wonder if oxytocin would counter both "FEAR/anxiety" (freeze/flight) and "GRIEF/separation anxiety" (sadness)?


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Old 05-13-18, 06:47 AM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

There are many antidepressants such as Celexa that are also very effective in the treatment of anxiety, especially in higher than usual dosages. Some of the SNRI's such as Lyrica and Cymbalta ( seratonin norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors) are also good for pain as well. the pain message travels along the same neuropathways . We don't always know exactly why some antidepressants are also effective in treatment of anxiety and depression however any antidepressant that corrects the cascade balance of neurotransmitters is likely to correct anxiety, phobias and anything else that has been caused by a disruption of the cascade balance
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Old 05-13-18, 10:38 PM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Quote:
Originally Posted by fathom6 View Post
Some people are afraid all the time (I am praying that is the case, otherwise I'm one lonely oddball), some have anxiety all the time, some are depressed all the time, etc, etc. I view these as distinct processes, even though I see meds for depression used for anxiety and phobias etc. I view this as very important subject but do not find any material or research on it, or maybe I am missing something. I want to clarify, I am absolutely not against depression meds being used for anxiety, I understand we got to do with what we have (and wish everyone luck), and respectfully realize that science is continuously being developed, but understanding this better is very important to me and my great Psychiatrist does not give me any answers, nor does Google.

In my case, I dont have any depression at all, but I am afraid (abnormally afraid) since birth, so much afraid that all my conditions (in particular my speech problems) I believe emanate from fear, and I have yet to see a person like me, which makes me very alone. I dont have "a" phobia, I have generalized intense fear 24x7, and I really dont believe it is anxiety.

Would there be anyone that has researched or knowledge in this area, please chime. Hoping someone can help here, thanks in advance.
can you clarify your question a bit?

anxiety is just another word for fear and worry

anxiety isnt always defined as a phobia, example-general anxiety disorder
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Old 05-19-18, 02:06 AM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Quote:
Originally Posted by fathom6 View Post
Some people are afraid all the time (I am praying that is the case, otherwise I'm one lonely oddball), some have anxiety all the time, some are depressed all the time, etc, etc. I view these as distinct processes, even though I see meds for depression used for anxiety and phobias etc. I view this as very important subject but do not find any material or research on it, or maybe I am missing something. I want to clarify, I am absolutely not against depression meds being used for anxiety, I understand we got to do with what we have (and wish everyone luck), and respectfully realize that science is continuously being developed, but understanding this better is very important to me and my great Psychiatrist does not give me any answers, nor does Google.

In my case, I dont have any depression at all, but I am afraid (abnormally afraid) since birth, so much afraid that all my conditions (in particular my speech problems) I believe emanate from fear, and I have yet to see a person like me, which makes me very alone. I dont have "a" phobia, I have generalized intense fear 24x7, and I really dont believe it is anxiety.

Would there be anyone that has researched or knowledge in this area, please chime. Hoping someone can help here, thanks in advance.
I can recommend you read "Lost Connections: Uncovering the Real Causes of Depression by Jonathan Hari and "A straight talking Introduction to the Causes of Mental Health Problems" to see just how weak the evidence is for these neurotransmitter based models of mental illness is.

The Myth of the Chemical Cure is another good one:
Quote:
"There's no evidence that there's a chemical imbalance in peoples brains (Prof Joanna Moncrieff University College of London) "The term doesn't really make sense- We don't know what a chemically balanced brain would look like."
Irving Kirsch: Associate Director of the Program in Placebo Studies and a lecturer in medicine at the Harvard Medical School and and Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Centre and professor emeritus of psychology at the Universities of Hull and Plymouth in the and the United Kingdom and the University of Connecticut in the United States:

Quote:
The idea you feel terrible because of a "chemical imbalance" was built on a series of mistakes and errors. It has come as close to being proven wrong as you ever get in science.
These drugs do help some people (maybe 20-35% if you do an open trail where you repeatedly change medications until you get a result) but we need to be aware of a few hard facts.

Under FDA rules all you have to do is produce 2 trials anywhere, any time that suggest some positive result of the drug.

The initial trial for Prozac was given for 245 patients but the company published only 27 of them.
Another analysis showed that the trial patients improved their Hamilton depression rating scale by 1.8 points on a 50 point scale.

Anyhow that's enough for a warm up.

I am in favour of stimulants for ADHD though- absolutely.

My personal belief, based on treatment that I have had and have seen work elsewhere is that the cause of the feeling of fear or anxiety is physiological.

The first think I would think about- is it present all the day at the same level? Does it change through the day? Does it go away at night?


What is the speech problem?

Are you coordinated or clumsy, fit or unfit?
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Old 05-19-18, 02:10 AM
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Re: Physiology of: Fear vs Anxiety vs Depression and Role of Neurotransmitters

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveddd View Post
can you clarify your question a bit?

anxiety is just another word for fear and worry

anxiety isnt always defined as a phobia, example-general anxiety disorder


You have to tease out stress response from anxiety. It is possible to have severe stress responses that are driven by physiological problems and not by cognitions. The stress responses do tend to make you more prone to negative/anxious thoughts though.
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