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  #31  
Old 10-02-18, 09:59 AM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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Originally Posted by day_vay View Post
i mean, all my information is being sourced from psychiatrists, the fda document, and just basic knowledge on amphetamines.

You can always try me and quote one thing. Oh, we can even play a little game. You can quote three things, and if you can disprove me, you "win".
win????!!!!
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Old 10-02-18, 10:48 AM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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Originally Posted by day_vay View Post
I mean, all my information is being sourced from psychiatrists, the FDA document, and just basic knowledge on amphetamines.

You can always try me and quote one thing. Oh, we can even play a little game. You can quote three things, and if you can disprove me, you "win".
As I mentioned above, I think the psychiatrist you quote is full of crap.
He sounds more like a psychologist, saying "it's all in your head. Just change
your way of thinking." Bah Humbug!

The fact sheet that comes with Vyvanse touts the best results from studies,
not the average results.
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  #33  
Old 10-03-18, 10:36 AM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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Originally Posted by day_vay View Post
Ah, Vyvanse...

(tldr; vyvanse works exactly as advertised. the reason you don't think it works is because of a psychological tolerance that might actually lead to addiction, and an amphetamine rat race)

Vyvanse can change your psychology drastically. Diet can play a huge part for those of you who are taking a while to feel the medication, and you can also have a low dosage if for the first time taking Vyvanse you don't feel that much of a change. There is however one factor that people downplay or ignore because they don't have "addictive personalities" or they don't have depression, or anxiety. I know this is long, but this is important for people frustrated with their medication -- even if you're confident that you are not depressed, or that you don't have anxiety.
Vyvanse does not work exactly as prescribed which is one of the issues I have with it. I do not believe it works as long as its purported to and it takes awhile to get going. It does not change your psychology And what do you mean by change your psychology drastically?
Quote:

My psychiatrist told me that you can develop a physical tolerance (and newer research points to permanent, but, I suppose it's debatable) with Vyvanse, since your body naturally produces more dopamine transporters so that your brain can be the same way it was before the introduction of medication (the controversy in the permanence lies in the fact that the dopamine transporters do not disappear). That's right, your brain actively seeks to become ADHD/ADD again
Physical tolerance is not as common as you think and very often is associated with high doses or abuse level doses. This is not to say that you can't develop a physical tolerance but its not a guarantee. And your brain does not actively seek to become adhd. Adhd is chronic and nearly always life long. It's a neurodevelopmental disorder in addition to it being classified as a psychiatric disorder (which I have always disagreed with).

Quote:
. Why? Well, the accepted premise behind most mental disorders is that it's evolution. People with OCD probably had ancestors that needed to pay attention to details to survive, people with ADD/ADHD had to take risks to survive (thrills often satisfy the ADD/ADHD brain), and people with paranoia lived in treacherous environments that required distrust to survive (all of these being one of many challenges that might've lead to these disorders). These smalls changes in brain chemistry depending on environment over generations is an incredible science, and of course, it still needs to be researched, but it seems most psychiatrists accept this theory.
I do not think most psychiatrists accept this theory and it seems like your personal theory or opinion rather than a scientifically proven theory. And to say that people with paranoia had treacherous environments- rather than being sympathetic and understanding of a very real mental disorder does a disservice to those that suffer from it, Thrill seeking behavior can be associated with adhd but frankly I do not identify with that and I know I am not alone. This is where stupid movies like “limitless” f things up for us. People see that and think it's totally like adhd when its actually not. Not all adhd people want to skydive and bungee jump. Adhd is defined by impairment and someone with severe impairments will not want to do that.

Quote:
So a tolerance is to be expected! However, the tolerance isn't always noticeable. My psychiatrist told me that the most common case, and most likely case, is a psychological tolerance that's rooted most commonly in anxiety, depression and sometimes paranoia (which is uncommon, but still considered common). You can actually convince yourself that the medication isn't working, which will result in your mind counteracting the full effect of the medication, which technically means it is working on a chemical level, but you simply just can't feel it because you're psychologically tricking yourself into not feeling it. It is only after a years-worth of therapy that you can give a confident guess that it is physical tolerance.
You keep saying psychological tolerance as if that is an accepted theory that science supports. And I don’t mean that physical tolerance is absent of psychological tolerance but strictly psychological tolerance, I do not subscribe . I believe that compulsive dosing or taking of amphetamines can lead to physical tolerance which then involves a psychological obsession or at the very least- problem. Take me when I wasnt sober and drinking. The mental obsession over alcohol- (did I have enough, did I drink enough, when I could drink again) caused be to drink more and more compulsively in search of that high and physical tolerance was a natural progression. It's not like I had a psychological tolerance and no physical tolerance but it was the two combined which did me in.

Quote:
Amphetamines seem to only accelerate in time when it comes to psychological side-effects if your dose isn't increased. This is because the focus is far superior and in turn, the anxiousness is far more noticeable. More importantly though, amphetamines are also anti-depressants. Some psychiatrists will even prescribe Vyvanse for depression, and while it's common for people with ADD to have depression, there is a big problem in doing this.
Just because something has antidepressant properties does not mean its an antidepressant. I know that amphetamines can be prescribed off label for depression(not sure if they can legally market them for that), but someone with depression issues or bipolar needs to be closely monitored. I know me being BPII, I had to be very closely monitored and say my doc every month for like a year. I have been on stimulants for 14 years now and I am doing fine.

Quote:
everyone has the potential to be the absolute best, ADD just makes it harder -- but amphetamines can make you feel fine about the fact that this is only possible with amphetamines -- which simply isn't true. This is what leads people to feel like the guy from Limitless, which is not good. On amphetamines, and without knowing and remembering what it's like to not be depressed or anxious all the time, you will begin to believe that you absolutely need medication, which is how the addiction is formed with amphetamines, and it's why people with ADD and depression are more prone to said addiction.
Needing the medication means that your impairments warrant you needing it every day. This is no different than me taking my antidepressant everyday or wearing my night vision glasses. Sure, I can see without them but I am a much better and safer driver with them. I think that in certain ways misinformation colors what many of us and other people think about adhd and its impairments. That it can be managed just as easily without meds. Or that there is some sort of advantage taking meds. It levels the playing field but doesn't make us superman. AGAIN that stupid movie limitless continues to help the misinformation circulate.

Quote:
This all together, is completely disastrous for the medication's effectiveness, because you're tricked into believing that the mood-elevation is what the medication is intended to do, when in truth it's not intended to produce that effect (unless you are given Vyvanse for depression, which again is unethical for the reasons I'm giving now), and you're also experiencing the formation of amphetamine addiction.
I wish you’d stop throwing the term addiction around. I do not think you have a good grasp of what it is and what it feels like. Do you have an addiction that you struggle with? Because if you do not, it's very hard to put yourself into an addicts shoes. Very often the people that have the most to say about addiction, know the least. (not saying this is you, just generally)

Quote:
Don't feel ashamed for liking that it does this -- you absolutely shouldn't! But what you must do, is teach your brain that you are looking for focus, and that you are capable of being productive even off of amphetamines.
If I was so good at being productive off meds, I wouldn't be taking them.
Quote:

Your psychiatrist won't know about the anxiety, or they unfortunately won't care enough as they probably have a schizophrenic, or suicidal depressive to consult after your appointment is done, and even more after them, and it can all be overwhelming for them, especially when psychiatrists are the most in-demand medical professionals in North America (definitely here in Canada, according to statistics). In my case, mine trusted me to take care of my medication dosages (only within 5-20 mg -- she didn't think I was a psychiatrist or something) and your own psychiatrist will probably give you a higher dosage without much thought because even if they know you're depressed, or anxious, in most cases they think it isn't so bad to the point of developing an addiction.
What makes you say this? It is a very callous way to talk about mental health issues such as suicide and schizophrenia. And if you do not report your anxiety then the doctor will not know. And I would love to know where you have found doctors to just prescribe higher doses with no concerns. The DEA is breathing down the necks of Doctors and pharmacists and pharmacies. In order to protect their licenses Doctors have to be really cautions. The “do no harm” oath is actually important to most doctors and I do not think that a doctor can't be bothered to consider anxiety. With the controlled substances that I take, my doctors are required to do an addiction screening with me every few months.
Quote:
depression is caused by ADD/ADHD, and often times that depression is easy to reverse with psychotherapy, and antidepressants can be detrimental for this type of depression, and unnecessary in my opinion. If you depressed for another reason talk to your psychiatrist.
Well I'm glad you aren't my doctor because antidepressants saved my life and millions of others. Therapy in conjunction with medication is the best way in my opinion. Some people need long term antidepressant therapy and some need it short term but it is an extremely important part of treating depression- no matter what the cause or source is. Depression is very real and needs treatment whether or not it has to do with adhd.
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  #34  
Old 10-03-18, 11:05 AM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
Vyvanse does not work exactly as prescribed which is one of the issues I have with it. I do not believe it works as long as its purported to and it takes awhile to get going. It does not change your psychology And what do you mean by change your psychology drastically?

Physical tolerance is not as common as you think and very often is associated with high doses or abuse level doses. This is not to say that you can't develop a physical tolerance but its not a guarantee. And your brain does not actively seek to become adhd. Adhd is chronic and nearly always life long. It's a neurodevelopmental disorder in addition to it being classified as a psychiatric disorder (which I have always disagreed with).


I do not think most psychiatrists accept this theory and it seems like your personal theory or opinion rather than a scientifically proven theory. And to say that people with paranoia had treacherous environments- rather than being sympathetic and understanding of a very real mental disorder does a disservice to those that suffer from it, Thrill seeking behavior can be associated with adhd but frankly I do not identify with that and I know I am not alone. This is where stupid movies like “limitless” f things up for us. People see that and think it's totally like adhd when its actually not. Not all adhd people want to skydive and bungee jump. Adhd is defined by impairment and someone with severe impairments will not want to do that.


You keep saying psychological tolerance as if that is an accepted theory that science supports. And I don’t mean that physical tolerance is absent of psychological tolerance but strictly psychological tolerance, I do not subscribe . I believe that compulsive dosing or taking of amphetamines can lead to physical tolerance which then involves a psychological obsession or at the very least- problem. Take me when I wasnt sober and drinking. The mental obsession over alcohol- (did I have enough, did I drink enough, when I could drink again) caused be to drink more and more compulsively in search of that high and physical tolerance was a natural progression. It's not like I had a psychological tolerance and no physical tolerance but it was the two combined which did me in.


Just because something has antidepressant properties does not mean its an antidepressant. I know that amphetamines can be prescribed off label for depression(not sure if they can legally market them for that), but someone with depression issues or bipolar needs to be closely monitored. I know me being BPII, I had to be very closely monitored and say my doc every month for like a year. I have been on stimulants for 14 years now and I am doing fine.


Needing the medication means that your impairments warrant you needing it every day. This is no different than me taking my antidepressant everyday or wearing my night vision glasses. Sure, I can see without them but I am a much better and safer driver with them. I think that in certain ways misinformation colors what many of us and other people think about adhd and its impairments. That it can be managed just as easily without meds. Or that there is some sort of advantage taking meds. It levels the playing field but doesn't make us superman. AGAIN that stupid movie limitless continues to help the misinformation circulate.


I wish you’d stop throwing the term addiction around. I do not think you have a good grasp of what it is and what it feels like. Do you have an addiction that you struggle with? Because if you do not, it's very hard to put yourself into an addicts shoes. Very often the people that have the most to say about addiction, know the least. (not saying this is you, just generally)


If I was so good at being productive off meds, I wouldn't be taking them.

What makes you say this? It is a very callous way to talk about mental health issues such as suicide and schizophrenia. And if you do not report your anxiety then the doctor will not know. And I would love to know where you have found doctors to just prescribe higher doses with no concerns. The DEA is breathing down the necks of Doctors and pharmacists and pharmacies. In order to protect their licenses Doctors have to be really cautions. The “do no harm” oath is actually important to most doctors and I do not think that a doctor can't be bothered to consider anxiety. With the controlled substances that I take, my doctors are required to do an addiction screening with me every few months.


Well I'm glad you aren't my doctor because antidepressants saved my life and millions of others. Therapy in conjunction with medication is the best way in my opinion. Some people need long term antidepressant therapy and some need it short term but it is an extremely important part of treating depression- no matter what the cause or source is. Depression is very real and needs treatment whether or not it has to do with adhd.

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  #35  
Old 10-19-18, 05:44 PM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

First of all, I should apologize for the wait. I always forget about the posts I make. It's a school stress thing. Anyways!
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Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
Vyvanse does not work exactly as prescribed which is one of the issues I have with it. I do not believe it works as long as its purported to and it takes awhile to get going. It does not change your psychology And what do you mean by change your psychology drastically?
For sure, I understand -- Vyvanse feels different for everyone, but the key word here is feel. At the end of the day, dextroamphetamine will bond to dopamine receptors the same way as someone else taking Vyvanse. In some cases you will get someone with high blood pressure, hyperthyroidism, Fabry's disease -- and so much more. But those are rare, especially if you're a young adult. If you're older, things change regarding your blood pressure and cardiovascular abilities, but generally, these things can't effect your Vyvanse high significantly. And by changing your psychology drastically, I mean, it will make you think things, or not think of things, that you usually don't think/not think about. An example is empathy. People who undergo long term therapeutic amphetamine treatment for ADD/ADHD commonly have reduced empathy. Just take a look at this forum, or better yet, look at what psychiatrists are saying. Both L-amphetamine and D-amphetamine are notorious for leaving people feeling flat. Again, this is the result of addiction. The first hour or two of even a theraputic dose of amphetamines results in a spike of empathy -- if it's your first time, you'll find yourself wanting to apologize a lot, to ask people about how they're doing, etc. This is because, as I stated, amphetamines are also anti-depressants. I will explain that later, because I see that you've pointed out that they aren't. On amphetamines, your perspective on yourself can also be changed. You will think you are better, stronger, smarter -- when this is not the case. You would also be mistaken to think that this is just because amphetamines suppress your ADHD, and you're just feeling "normalness". But this is not true. Amphetamines are notorious for improving confidence to a level that's near-manic. It's why soldiers did well on them in WW2, and it's why public speakers take Adderall before a speech. If you don't believe me, here's an Oxford study from the International Journal of Neuropsychopharmacology. (https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/15/1/41/910188)

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Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
Physical tolerance is not as common as you think and very often is associated with high doses or abuse level doses. This is not to say that you can't develop a physical tolerance but its not a guarantee. And your brain does not actively seek to become adhd. Adhd is chronic and nearly always life long. It's a neurodevelopmental disorder in addition to it being classified as a psychiatric disorder (which I have always disagreed with).
Unfortunately, physical tolerance is exactly as common as I think it is. Not because I think, but because I know. I know because I have taken the time to read the studies. In fact, the most recent and technologically advanced study done on methylphenidate, which effects your dopamine receptors the same way d-amphetamine and l-amphetamine do (they feel different because d & l also use a lot of nor-epinephrine), have shown that you build a 24% higher tolerance over a year of therapeutic methylphendiate treatment.
(study: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0063023)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
I do not think most psychiatrists accept this theory and it seems like your personal theory or opinion rather than a scientifically proven theory. And to say that people with paranoia had treacherous environments- rather than being sympathetic and understanding of a very real mental disorder does a disservice to those that suffer from it, Thrill seeking behavior can be associated with adhd but frankly I do not identify with that and I know I am not alone. This is where stupid movies like “limitless” f things up for us. People see that and think it's totally like adhd when its actually not. Not all adhd people want to skydive and bungee jump. Adhd is defined by impairment and someone with severe impairments will not want to do that.
So let me tell you something interesting. If you specialize in psychiatry ever, they will give you a text book called Psychiatric Genetics and Genomics. This book will, in fact, explain to you just how significant genetics play in mental disorders, and how they come to be. The answer, as you will find in the textbook, is that, these changes in your genetics happen over long-term exposure to a particular environment. This is how evolution works. This is real science, with no sociopolitical narrative of sympathy or empathy. I am not doing a disservice to anyone. I sympathize with people who suffer from paranoia, or any given mental disorder. But, what you're doing, Sarah, is a disservice to the human body. It is complicated. It is smart. Smart enough to change your brain according to the environment you live in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
You keep saying psychological tolerance as if that is an accepted theory that science supports. And I don’t mean that physical tolerance is absent of psychological tolerance but strictly psychological tolerance, I do not subscribe . I believe that compulsive dosing or taking of amphetamines can lead to physical tolerance which then involves a psychological obsession or at the very least- problem. Take me when I wasnt sober and drinking. The mental obsession over alcohol- (did I have enough, did I drink enough, when I could drink again) caused be to drink more and more compulsively in search of that high and physical tolerance was a natural progression. It's not like I had a psychological tolerance and no physical tolerance but it was the two combined which did me in.
Psychological tolerance -- it's a funny term because your psychology is completely physical, unless you believe in the human spirit. Often times though, this thinking that you have a tolerance is the result of low serotonin. You describe it perfectly when talking about alcohol addiction. The compulsive thinking about it, wondering, and the pondering -- this is the psychological tolerance. You will think that you have a tolerance, therefore you will produce one. It's a placebo. And, I hate to break it to you, placebo is certainly scientifically proven. But you're aboslutely right. Psychological tolerance and real, physical tolerance come hand-in-hand. The thing is though, amphetamines will produce this psychological tolerance because when your norepinephrine levels are raised, and your dopamine levels, serotonin will immediately try to raise its levels as well. Unfortunately, amphetamines raise dopamine to such an extent that your serotonin simply cannot match it. This imbalance causes anxiety, depression, and obsessiveness. It's in this obsessiveness of trying to become normal, or high again, that leads to a tolerance that does not actually exist. Also, you keep talking about science and accepted theories, but I've yet to see a single study from you, or the people on your side. The evidence really does lay in my lap, and not yours.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
Just because something has antidepressant properties does not mean its an antidepressant. I know that amphetamines can be prescribed off label for depression(not sure if they can legally market them for that), but someone with depression issues or bipolar needs to be closely monitored. I know me being BPII, I had to be very closely monitored and say my doc every month for like a year. I have been on stimulants for 14 years now and I am doing fine.
You're certainly right about your anti-depressant terminology, but amphetamines fall under the anti-depressant category. But just because it falls under the category doesn't mean it's a good idea to use it as such. In the case of amphetamines, this is certainly true, because it raises your serotonin very marginally very quickly, but also lowers just as fast. This is why as you approach your crash you feel fatigued, irritated, and exhausted. It's not because your body is putting in the work, it's because your serotonin temporarily takes a dive, or at the least, returns to normal -- you will feel the difference, this feeling is depression. And I'm not saying you will, but, I advise you to just do a google search on Adderall, Vyvanse, etc, and it's impact on serotonin before you reply, because there is a direct impact. As for your 14 year journey, I'm honestly glad that you have gone through it so smoothly. But alas, I'm a man of numbers and graphs, chemicals and radiation, and stories don't mean much to me, especially on an internet forum. The fact of the matter is that the numbers tell you that it's very, very rare to come out of any amphetamine treatment normally, even if taken as prescribed. If you read the Oxford study, you know what I'm talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
Needing the medication means that your impairments warrant you needing it every day. This is no different than me taking my antidepressant everyday or wearing my night vision glasses. Sure, I can see without them but I am a much better and safer driver with them. I think that in certain ways misinformation colors what many of us and other people think about adhd and its impairments. That it can be managed just as easily without meds. Or that there is some sort of advantage taking meds. It levels the playing field but doesn't make us superman. AGAIN that stupid movie limitless continues to help the misinformation circulate.
I always see this argument -- antidepressants, anti psychotics, stimulants, it's like putting a band-aid on a scratch, glasses on a pair of bad eyes, a crutch for a broken leg -- it's not a real argument. You come into your doctors office, you have lymphoma. Your doctor recommends a seriously toxic chemotherapy. Another recommend a surgery with very little chance of death. One option is seriously much better than the other. In my opinion, psychotherapy is always the best case scenario. But, like with the doctors dealing lymphoma, chemotherapy is easier than surgery (most of the time). Think of schizophrenics as the stage 4 cancer patient equivalent. In psychiatry, boy, can I tell you that there is a huge difference in workload between someone who goes in every month, every two weeks even, who is given medication, and someone who goes in once a week for psychotherapy. HUGE difference. And like I said. Psychiatrists are hugely in demand. They don't have time to give you psychotherapy. But that doesn't mean it's ethically wrong, at least according to the medical community, to give medications instead. This is the simple truth about medicine, and health care. You are not so important so as to have your doctor brush aside a schizophrenic to give you time for your 3 hour psychotherapy session. Is it better to go to class with Vyvanse? Certainly. But is better to undergo psychotherapy? Of course, because there is no side-effect to psychotherapy (so long as you're in the hands of a good doctor!).


Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
I wish you’d stop throwing the term addiction around. I do not think you have a good grasp of what it is and what it feels like. Do you have an addiction that you struggle with? Because if you do not, it's very hard to put yourself into an addicts shoes. Very often the people that have the most to say about addiction, know the least. (not saying this is you, just generally)
I've never had an addiction, no, I can't say that I have. But I know what addiction is because I'm currently taking an health studies addiction course at university. I get that you were an alcoholic, and I understand how terrible that addiction is. But an addiction is an addiction, no matter how severe it is. In the case of amphetamines? The likelyhood of an addiction is high, much higher than alcohol, but not quite as high as heroine, and certainly not as high as meth, meth being the most addictive stimulant on Earth (I'm sure there are derivatives and more powerful things, but meth is commonly known as being highest on the scale). If you are truly a scholar on addiction, then you know it is caused by dopamine (study: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...article/794743). This is the case in heroin, and meth especially. People like to throw the word escapism out, but while that's true, most of it has to do with the dopamine release -- often perceived by neuroscientists to be the chemical behind addiction. Now don't perceive me as crass when I say this, but I believe there is an easy two dots to connect here between addiction, and a drug that releases a very high amount of dopamine. There's a reason why amphetamines are compared to methamphetamine. It's because their addictive qualities are identical, the only difference is that meth releases far more dopamine, thus abusing your brain, creating a higher risk of addiction, and amphetamines release less dopamine, still abusing your brain a little bit, and thus creating a lower risk for addiction. If you did read the study, and you're compelled to tell me that "this only happens when you abuse substances" I would recommend you read it again, and then look at some studies yourself, because they all imply that any increase in dopamine creates a risk for addiction, and amphetamines, therapeutically even, are still increasing dopamine levels in such a way that the risk of addiction becomes significantly more likely.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
What makes you say this? It is a very callous way to talk about mental health issues such as suicide and schizophrenia. And if you do not report your anxiety then the doctor will not know. And I would love to know where you have found doctors to just prescribe higher doses with no concerns. The DEA is breathing down the necks of Doctors and pharmacists and pharmacies. In order to protect their licenses Doctors have to be really cautions. The “do no harm” oath is actually important to most doctors and I do not think that a doctor can't be bothered to consider anxiety. With the controlled substances that I take, my doctors are required to do an addiction screening with me every few months.
I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say I'm being callous. Do you mean the part where I say that doctors don't have time to treat ADD patients? Well, I don't know what to tell you but it's true. Doctors have priorities. Some people's mental health is worse than others. Thus an order of importance is established. I don't mean to offend anyone, but it's true. When you go to your dermatologist for psoriasis, he's going to give you very little time compared to his patient who has stage four melanoma. Also, when you bring up the fact that you're supposed to report anxiety -- I'm not sure you know exactly what a psychiatrist's job is. They are to determine your mental health. When people go to a psychiatrist, they are to be psychoanalyzed very carefully. This is what distinguishes a good psychiatrist, from a bad psychiatrist. When you go to an internal medicine doctor, they will look at every crack, every bump, and every lump. The psychiatrist must do this too, on a psychological level. Most schizophrenics don't know that they're schizophrenics. Most people with anxiety aren't aware of how serious their anxiety is. This goes for every disease, physical and psychological. I can agree that you have a responsibility to inform the doctor of symptoms, but even then, the psychiatrist still must determine if you are hiding something -- this is what makes the psychiatrist's job uniquely difficult in the field of medicine.


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Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
Well I'm glad you aren't my doctor because antidepressants saved my life and millions of others. Therapy in conjunction with medication is the best way in my opinion. Some people need long term antidepressant therapy and some need it short term but it is an extremely important part of treating depression- no matter what the cause or source is. Depression is very real and needs treatment whether or not it has to do with adhd.
Sure, antidepressants may have saved your life, but I counter that by asking, would psychotherapy from a skilled psychiatrist have saved you too? Unfortunately, this is where my expertise expires, because I don't know much about psychotherapy compared to medications, nor do I know how you would react, nor do I know if your therapist is truly skilled. It's almost a philosophical question, at the end of the day. To use medication, or not to use medication. That is the real question.
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Old 10-19-18, 06:57 PM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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Originally Posted by day_vay View Post
In fact, the most recent and technologically advanced study done on methylphenidate, which effects your dopamine receptors the same way d-amphetamine and l-amphetamine do (they feel different because d & l also use a lot of nor-epinephrine), have shown that you build a 24% higher tolerance over a year of therapeutic methylphendiate treatment.[/b]
You keep saying this same point. But the study did not find 24% tolerance.
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Old 10-29-18, 03:39 PM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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You keep saying this same point. But the study did not find 24% tolerance.
And you keep saying the same thing to my point. The study literally says a +24% increase in dopamine transporter availability, which is quite literally, a +24% tolerance.
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Old 10-29-18, 07:37 PM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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And you keep saying the same thing to my point. The study literally says a +24% increase in dopamine transporter availability, which is quite literally, a +24% tolerance.
It does not "quite literally" mean that.
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Old 10-30-18, 05:08 PM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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It does not "quite literally" mean that.
Citation, please? The burden lies on you, my friend. As far as the research shows, that increase means a tolerance -- unless, that is, you have not a single idea of what DAT really is...
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Old 10-30-18, 05:31 PM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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And you keep saying the same thing to my point. The study literally says a +24% increase in dopamine transporter availability, which is quite literally, a +24% tolerance.
I don't think increase in availability is the same thing as increase in tolerance.
Could you explain how you think they do mean the same thing?
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Old 10-30-18, 06:02 PM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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Originally Posted by day_vay View Post
Citation, please? The burden lies on you, my friend. As far as the research shows, that increase means a tolerance -- unless, that is, you have not a single idea of what DAT really is...
I'm not going to provide a citation of what the word "literally" means, because you can search it up yourself in a dictionary.

Yes, I have a general understanding of what DAT is. Assuming that the 24% increase in DAT is accurate, that still doesn't necessarily imply a 24% increase in tolerance. It's suggestive of tolerance, but that would require further research.

Even if there is 24% increase in tolerance, it might not be very clinically significant. If it only occurs in the first couple years of treatment, then that could be fixed by a small increase in dosage (such as going from 20mg Ritalin to 25mg Ritalin).

Finally, please respect the focus of this thread (Vyvanse's advertised versus actual duration of action). You've been very clear about your opinions on stimulant treatment, and you're free to keep expressing your views. You can start your own threads, or find existing threads that are on that topic.
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Old 10-30-18, 06:41 PM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?


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Old 11-09-18, 06:23 AM
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Re: Is Vyvanse duration a huge lie?

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Originally Posted by day_vay View Post
First of all, I should apologize for the wait. I always forget about the posts I make. It's a school stress thing. Anyways!


For sure, I understand -- Vyvanse feels different for everyone, but the key word here is feel. At the end of the day, dextroamphetamine will bond to dopamine receptors the same way as someone else taking Vyvanse. In some cases you will get someone with high blood pressure, hyperthyroidism, Fabry's disease -- and so much more. But those are rare, especially if you're a young adult. If you're older, things change regarding your blood pressure and cardiovascular abilities, but generally, these things can't effect your Vyvanse high significantly. And by changing your psychology drastically, I mean, it will make you think things, or not think of things, that you usually don't think/not think about. An example is empathy. People who undergo long term therapeutic amphetamine treatment for ADD/ADHD commonly have reduced empathy. Just take a look at this forum, or better yet, look at what psychiatrists are saying. Both L-amphetamine and D-amphetamine are notorious for leaving people feeling flat. Again, this is the result of addiction. The first hour or two of even a theraputic dose of amphetamines results in a spike of empathy -- if it's your first time, you'll find yourself wanting to apologize a lot, to ask people about how they're doing, etc. This is because, as I stated, amphetamines are also anti-depressants. I will explain that later, because I see that you've pointed out that they aren't. On amphetamines, your perspective on yourself can also be changed. You will think you are better, stronger, smarter -- when this is not the case. You would also be mistaken to think that this is just because amphetamines suppress your ADHD, and you're just feeling "normalness". But this is not true. Amphetamines are notorious for improving confidence to a level that's near-manic. It's why soldiers did well on them in WW2, and it's why public speakers take Adderall before a speech. If you don't believe me, here's an Oxford study from the International Journal of Neuropsychopharmacology. (https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/15/1/41/910188)
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Mechanism of action
Pharmacodynamics of amphetamine in a dopamine neuron
vte
A pharmacodynamic model of amphetamine and TAAR1
via AADC
The image above contains clickable linksAmphetamine enters the presynaptic neuron across the neuronal membrane or through DAT.[123] Once inside, it binds to TAAR1 or enters synaptic vesicles through VMAT2.[123][124] When amphetamine enters synaptic vesicles through VMAT2, it collapses the vesicular pH gradient, which in turn causes dopamine to be released into the cytosol (light tan-colored area) through VMAT2.[124][125] When amphetamine binds to TAAR1, it reduces the firing rate of the dopamine neuron via potassium channels and activates protein kinase A (PKA) and protein kinase C (PKC), which subsequently phosphorylate DAT.[123][126][127] PKA-phosphorylation causes DAT to withdraw into the presynaptic neuron (internalize) and cease transport.[123] PKC-phosphorylated DAT may either operate in reverse or, like PKA-phosphorylated DAT, internalize and cease transport.[123] Amphetamine is also known to increase intracellular calcium, an effect which is associated with DAT phosphorylation through a CAMKIIα-dependent pathway, in turn producing dopamine efflux.[128][129]
Lisdexamfetamine is an inactive prodrug that is converted in the body to dextroamphetamine, a pharmacologically active compound which is responsible for the drug's activity.[130] After oral ingestion, lisdexamfetamine is broken down by enzymes in red blood cells to form L-lysine, a naturally occurring essential amino acid, and dextroamphetamine.[6] The conversion of lisdexamfetamine to dextroamphetamine is not affected by gastrointestinal pH and is unlikely to be affected by alterations in normal gastrointestinal transit times.[6][131]

The optical isomers of amphetamine, i.e., dextroamphetamine and levoamphetamine, are TAAR1 agonists and vesicular monoamine transporter 2 inhibitors that can enter monoamine neurons;[123][124] this allows them to release monoamine neurotransmitters (dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin, among others) from their storage sites in the presynaptic neuron, as well as prevent the reuptake of these neurotransmitters from the synaptic cleft.[123][124]

Lisdexamfetamine was developed with the goal of providing a long duration of effect that is consistent throughout the day, with reduced potential for abuse. The attachment of the amino acid lysine slows down the relative amount of dextroamphetamine available to the blood stream. Because no free dextroamphetamine is present in lisdexamfetamine capsules, dextroamphetamine does not become available through mechanical manipulation, such as crushing or simple extraction. A relatively sophisticated biochemical process is needed to produce dextroamphetamine from lisdexamfetamine.[131] As opposed to Adderall, which contains roughly equal parts of racemic amphetamine and dextroamphetamine salts, lisdexamfetamine is a single-enantiomer dextroamphetamine formula.[130][132] Studies conducted show that lisdexamfetamine dimesylate may have less abuse potential than dextroamphetamine and an abuse profile similar to diethylpropion at dosages that are FDA-approved for treatment of ADHD.
I found this. Can you help me understand what you meant regarding binding to dopamine receptors and all that jazz using this info as a way to incorporate it?

Quote:
Unfortunately, physical tolerance is exactly as common as I think it is. Not because I think, but because I know. I know because I have taken the time to read the studies. In fact, the most recent and technologically advanced study done on methylphenidate, which effects your dopamine receptors the same way d-amphetamine and l-amphetamine do (they feel different because d & l also use a lot of nor-epinephrine), have shown that you build a 24% higher tolerance over a year of therapeutic methylphendiate treatment.
(study: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0063023)
We may have to agree to disagree and it could be me having a skewed vision of tolerance compared to yours. I think there comes a point after long term use that someone will need a dose increase- that makes sense. But I do not think its this prevalent scourge that everyone freaks out about. There are tons os threads all over the internet about people trying to reverse or avoid tolerances with potentiation, breaks, supplements and playing with their dosing. So I do think its possible but I do not for a minute believe its as common or as prevalent as what you can find on the internet from user experiences.


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I always see this argument -- antidepressants, anti psychotics, stimulants, it's like putting a band-aid on a scratch, glasses on a pair of bad eyes, a crutch for a broken leg -- it's not a real argument. You come into your doctors office, you have lymphoma. Your doctor recommends a seriously toxic chemotherapy. Another recommend a surgery with very little chance of death. One option is seriously much better than the other. In my opinion, psychotherapy is always the best case scenario. But, like with the doctors dealing lymphoma, chemotherapy is easier than surgery (most of the time). Think of schizophrenics as the stage 4 cancer patient equivalent. In psychiatry, boy, can I tell you that there is a huge difference in workload between someone who goes in every month, every two weeks even, who is given medication, and someone who goes in once a week for psychotherapy. HUGE difference. And like I said. Psychiatrists are hugely in demand. They don't have time to give you psychotherapy. But that doesn't mean it's ethically wrong, at least according to the medical community, to give medications instead. This is the simple truth about medicine, and health care. You are not so important so as to have your doctor brush aside a schizophrenic to give you time for your 3 hour psychotherapy session. Is it better to go to class with Vyvanse? Certainly. But is better to undergo psychotherapy? Of course, because there is no side-effect to psychotherapy (so long as you're in the hands of a good doctor!).
I am not so sure we differ here and I may have jumped the gun. I think therapy is essential to adhd treatment. All mental health treatment really. I know I was in therapy for about 16 years.

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The likelyhood of an addiction is high, much higher than alcohol, but not quite as high as heroine, and certainly not as high as meth, meth being the most addictive stimulant on Earth (I'm sure there are derivatives and more powerful things, but meth is commonly known as being highest on the scale). If you are truly a scholar on addiction, then you know it is caused by dopamine (study: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...article/794743). This is the case in heroin, and meth especially. People like to throw the word escapism out, but while that's true, most of it has to do with the dopamine release -- often perceived by neuroscientists to be the chemical behind addiction. Now don't perceive me as crass when I say this, but I believe there is an easy two dots to connect here between addiction, and a drug that releases a very high amount of dopamine. There's a reason why amphetamines are compared to methamphetamine. It's because their addictive qualities are identical, the only difference is that meth releases far more dopamine, thus abusing your brain, creating a higher risk of addiction, and amphetamines release less dopamine, still abusing your brain a little bit, and thus creating a lower risk for addiction. If you did read the study, and you're compelled to tell me that "this only happens when you abuse substances" I would recommend you read it again, and then look at some studies yourself, because they all imply that any increase in dopamine creates a risk for addiction, and amphetamines, therapeutically even, are still increasing dopamine levels in such a way that the risk of addiction becomes significantly more likely.
I didnt check you link above before writing this response so sorry for that. But if addiction is linked so heavily to dopamine how do you explain things like xanax, pot and other "downer" type meds that do not cause the typical euphoria or neurotransmitter boosts that you say amphetamines are responsible for? We have an opiate epidemic in this country and if stimulants were as or more addictive as heroin then there would be much more being done than a black box warning. IMO.

I just want to apologize. Your original tone ruffled my feathers. So instead of reading what you wrote carefully I was reacting to the way you wrote it. It made me feel like you were attempting to seem self righteous or...full of yourself... or patronizing. And that assumption was on me. I should know better than to assume and jump the gun.. but I am human so sorry.
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