ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community  

Go Back   ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community > ADULTS AND ADD/ADHD > Adults with ADD > General ADD Talk
Register Blogs FAQ Chat Members List Calendar Donate Gallery Arcade Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 02-13-13, 05:11 PM
Tyler Durden Tyler Durden is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: my mind
Posts: 563
Thanks: 396
Thanked 337 Times in 214 Posts
Tyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to behold
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Not necessarily true.

Take epilepsy for example: it was understood what causes it about 50
years before a test was devised to reliably diagnose it.


from: http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/history
Eh?

I said you cannot devise a test for something unless you know what it is you are testing for, this is obvious, and still stands.

You say this example shows you can devise a test 50 years after you understand what causes something... this has no bearing on what I said.

We do not know what causes ADHD.

As i said before, we do not know what ADHD is, therefore we cannot have reliable tests for ADHD, we also do not know what causes ADHD, your example is not relevant.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tyler Durden For This Useful Post:
Subtract81 (02-14-13)
  #17  
Old 02-13-13, 05:26 PM
Lunacie's Avatar
Lunacie Lunacie is online now
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: south-central Kansas
Posts: 19,627
Thanks: 21,219
Thanked 26,483 Times in 12,362 Posts
Lunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
Eh?

I said you cannot devise a test for something unless you know what it is you are testing for, this is obvious, and still stands.

You say this example shows you can devise a test 50 years after you understand what causes something... this has no bearing on what I said.

We do not know what causes ADHD.

As i said before, we do not know what ADHD is, therefore we cannot have reliable tests for ADHD, we also do not know what causes ADHD, your example is not relevant.
It was believed that it was known what caused epilepsy, but it could not
be proven until the test was developed. We believe we know what causes
ADHD, and hopefully a test will be developed that will prove it or rule it out.
__________________
ADD is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what you know.
-RUSSELL A. BARKLEY, PH.D.


As far as I know, there is nothing positive about ADHD that people can't have w out ADHD. ~ ADD me
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Lunacie For This Useful Post:
Amtram (02-14-13), Dizfriz (02-13-13), Hyperman87 (06-07-13), Spacemaster (02-13-13)
  #18  
Old 02-13-13, 05:54 PM
Tyler Durden Tyler Durden is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: my mind
Posts: 563
Thanks: 396
Thanked 337 Times in 214 Posts
Tyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to behold
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

I am no epilepsy expert but it is my understanding epilepsy is basically seizures, wheras ADHD is 'defined' as a multitude of extremely ambiguous symptoms. Therefore epilepsy is effectively a single unambiguous symptom, there are no hard to distinguish comorbidities, (although comorbidities could obviously exist).

Further, we do not know the 'cause' of ADHD, I was saying you need to know what something is before you can test for it, and as far as I can see we are some way off.

Could you share what these potential 'causes' are that could provide a diagnosis are?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tyler Durden For This Useful Post:
Subtract81 (02-14-13)
Sponsored Links
  #19  
Old 02-13-13, 06:04 PM
Lunacie's Avatar
Lunacie Lunacie is online now
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: south-central Kansas
Posts: 19,627
Thanks: 21,219
Thanked 26,483 Times in 12,362 Posts
Lunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
I am no epilepsy expert but it is my understanding epilepsy is basically seizures, wheras ADHD is 'defined' as a multitude of extremely ambiguous symptoms. Therefore epilepsy is effectively a single unambiguous symptom, there are no hard to distinguish comorbidities, (although comorbidities could obviously exist).

Further, we do not no the cause of ADHD, you may 'believe' you know the 'causes', if you believe you do know please tell us as you will be saving a lot of people a lot of pain.

Please would you share what these 'causes' that can provide a diagnosis are?
That's what I'm saying. They thought they knew the cause of epilepsy
and eventually someone developed a test that could prove whether their
theory of cause was right or wrong.

Turns out there is more than one kind of epilepsy, and more than one cause.
It's not as basic as you say it is.

The cause can be illness, brain damage, or abnormal development of the
brain. No cause can be determined for about 3/4 of the cases of epilepsy.

We think we know the cause of ADHD, but the more we learn the more
kinds of ADHD we're seeing, so there may be more than one cause as well.

When the right test comes along, it will confirm or rule out the theories, eh?
__________________
ADD is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what you know.
-RUSSELL A. BARKLEY, PH.D.


As far as I know, there is nothing positive about ADHD that people can't have w out ADHD. ~ ADD me

Last edited by Lunacie; 02-13-13 at 06:05 PM.. Reason: typos
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Lunacie For This Useful Post:
Amtram (02-13-13), Dizfriz (02-14-13), namazu (02-13-13)
  #20  
Old 02-13-13, 06:51 PM
sarahsweets's Avatar
sarahsweets sarahsweets is offline
Mod-A-holic
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: nj, usa
Posts: 28,445
Thanks: 5,776
Thanked 32,892 Times in 15,249 Posts
sarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

I think everyone's examples are relevent. Saying they're not sounds dismissive.
__________________
President of the No F's given society.

I carried a watermelon?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to sarahsweets For This Useful Post:
Dizfriz (02-14-13)
  #21  
Old 02-13-13, 07:30 PM
Lunacie's Avatar
Lunacie Lunacie is online now
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: south-central Kansas
Posts: 19,627
Thanks: 21,219
Thanked 26,483 Times in 12,362 Posts
Lunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
I think everyone's examples are relevent. Saying they're not sounds dismissive.
Yes. ^

What doesn't seem relevant to one because of his perspective can very
well seem relevant to another who has a different perspective.

I explained why I think my example to be relevant. That should be enough.
__________________
ADD is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what you know.
-RUSSELL A. BARKLEY, PH.D.


As far as I know, there is nothing positive about ADHD that people can't have w out ADHD. ~ ADD me
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lunacie For This Useful Post:
Dizfriz (02-14-13), sarahsweets (02-14-13)
  #22  
Old 02-13-13, 07:58 PM
Tyler Durden Tyler Durden is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: my mind
Posts: 563
Thanks: 396
Thanked 337 Times in 214 Posts
Tyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to behold
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

As you quoted my text and specified your post as a reply to mine I felt I was entitled to point out that it didn't seem to have any particular bearing on or negate anything I had said.

Last edited by Tyler Durden; 02-13-13 at 08:08 PM..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tyler Durden For This Useful Post:
Subtract81 (02-14-13)
  #23  
Old 02-13-13, 08:11 PM
Lunacie's Avatar
Lunacie Lunacie is online now
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: south-central Kansas
Posts: 19,627
Thanks: 21,219
Thanked 26,483 Times in 12,362 Posts
Lunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
As you quoted my text and specified your post as a reply to mine I felt I was entitled to point out that it didn't seem to have any particular bearing on or negate anything I had said.
Just as I was entitled to quote your post and explain how I disagreed.

If you don't find my posts relevant to your posts, you are entitled to ignore them.
__________________
ADD is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what you know.
-RUSSELL A. BARKLEY, PH.D.


As far as I know, there is nothing positive about ADHD that people can't have w out ADHD. ~ ADD me

Last edited by Lunacie; 02-13-13 at 08:11 PM.. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Lunacie For This Useful Post:
Dizfriz (02-14-13)
  #24  
Old 02-13-13, 09:49 PM
Spacemaster's Avatar
Spacemaster Spacemaster is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,141
Thanks: 5,885
Thanked 3,651 Times in 1,494 Posts
Spacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

It is perfectly fine to quote someone and agree or disagree, but let's not try to determine whether or not *you feel* someone's post is relevant.

We are talking about the topic at hand. Whether or not a person responds directly to another, or to the general thread, don't proclaim what is relevant and what is not.

You can disagree with someone and make a counter-point without calling someone's post "irrelevant". Sometimes it's all in how a person phrases something, eh?

FWIW, seizures are not a totally unambiguous symptom. My ex had seizures, but he was most certainly not an epileptic. He was an opiate abuser.
__________________
Gandalf: "A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to”

Here am I sitting in a tin can far above the world
Planet Earth is blue and there's nothing I can do -Space Oddity
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Spacemaster For This Useful Post:
Amtram (02-13-13), Dizfriz (02-14-13), Lunacie (02-14-13), sarahsweets (02-14-13)
  #25  
Old 02-13-13, 10:22 PM
Tyler Durden Tyler Durden is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: my mind
Posts: 563
Thanks: 396
Thanked 337 Times in 214 Posts
Tyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to behold
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacemaster View Post

We are talking about the topic at hand. Whether or not a person responds directly to another, or to the general thread, don't proclaim what is relevant and what is not.

You can disagree with someone and make a counter-point without calling someone's post "irrelevant". Sometimes it's all in how a person phrases something, eh?
Epilepsy is not the same disorder as adhd. It is not the topic at hand.

I made a counter point, that their reply had no bearing/ was not of relevance to what I posted, as the initial poster I feel I am entitled to express this, if they can show me how my post was infact 'not necessarily true' using epilepsy as an example I will take it all back.

Last edited by Tyler Durden; 02-13-13 at 10:36 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-13-13, 10:25 PM
Spacemaster's Avatar
Spacemaster Spacemaster is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,141
Thanks: 5,885
Thanked 3,651 Times in 1,494 Posts
Spacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

Who said it was?
__________________
Gandalf: "A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to”

Here am I sitting in a tin can far above the world
Planet Earth is blue and there's nothing I can do -Space Oddity
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-13-13, 10:34 PM
fracturedstory's Avatar
fracturedstory fracturedstory is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7,675
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 1,539
Thanked 7,910 Times in 4,072 Posts
fracturedstory has a reputation beyond reputefracturedstory has a reputation beyond reputefracturedstory has a reputation beyond reputefracturedstory has a reputation beyond reputefracturedstory has a reputation beyond reputefracturedstory has a reputation beyond reputefracturedstory has a reputation beyond reputefracturedstory has a reputation beyond reputefracturedstory has a reputation beyond reputefracturedstory has a reputation beyond reputefracturedstory has a reputation beyond repute
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

I was going ask about the qEEG. That seems the most accurate.

Hmm...I knew I should have waited 9 months for my free qEEG.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-13-13, 10:50 PM
Tyler Durden Tyler Durden is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: my mind
Posts: 563
Thanks: 396
Thanked 337 Times in 214 Posts
Tyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to beholdTyler Durden is a splendid one to behold
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacemaster View Post
Who said it was?
I was making a point...
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-14-13, 12:11 AM
Amtram's Avatar
Amtram Amtram is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Toms River, NJ
Posts: 10,509
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 20,928
Thanked 17,517 Times in 7,316 Posts
Amtram has a reputation beyond reputeAmtram has a reputation beyond reputeAmtram has a reputation beyond reputeAmtram has a reputation beyond reputeAmtram has a reputation beyond reputeAmtram has a reputation beyond reputeAmtram has a reputation beyond reputeAmtram has a reputation beyond reputeAmtram has a reputation beyond reputeAmtram has a reputation beyond reputeAmtram has a reputation beyond repute
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

We do not need to know what causes something to know that it's a problem. We don't even need to know what causes something to treat it - in many cases we have what amounts to palliative care for many, many conditions.

If we know that there is a problem and we know that there is something that seems to help with the problem during the interim between finding out that the problem exists and finding out what causes it, then we should use it.

If, instead, we decide that we must have proof of the cause of the problem before doing anything about it, we would have had people dying of bacterial infections for several decades between the time Semmelweis insisted that his colleagues wash their hands before delivering babies and the discovery of penicillin.

The point is that if there is a large amount of robust evidence that something exists, a test is not needed as proof for its existence. The reason we want a test is to refine the diagnosis and specifically target the treatment.
__________________
"Living well is the best revenge." G.B. Shaw
"I'm easily swayed by robust scientific evidence." Amtram
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Amtram For This Useful Post:
Dizfriz (02-14-13), Flory (11-27-14), Lunacie (02-14-13)
  #30  
Old 02-14-13, 12:13 AM
Spacemaster's Avatar
Spacemaster Spacemaster is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,141
Thanks: 5,885
Thanked 3,651 Times in 1,494 Posts
Spacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond reputeSpacemaster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: this DR Barkley quote states that Neurological tests have no value in the diagnos

and you missed my point completely.

Even if you feel someone's post IS irrelevant to the topic at hand, it is very dismissive sounding to tell someone that their post is irrelevant.
From someone else's point of view, their post may well be relevant, and perhaps your post may be irrelevant to them. (I'm not saying your posts are irrelevant)

Basically, make a strong argument, but choose words more wisely. It's easy to make someone feel stupid, and we with ADHD are often made to feel stupid as it is.
__________________
Gandalf: "A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to”

Here am I sitting in a tin can far above the world
Planet Earth is blue and there's nothing I can do -Space Oddity
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Spacemaster For This Useful Post:
Amtram (02-14-13), Dizfriz (02-14-13), Lunacie (02-14-13), sarahsweets (02-14-13)
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tests to distinguish between FASD and ADHD ConcertaParent Adult Diagnosis & Treatment 15 02-10-13 12:33 AM
Thoughts on new Barkley Video Dizfriz Science in the Media 28 02-05-13 02:04 AM
Negative for Adderall on 5 Drug Tests gevitus Adderall 3 11-18-12 09:49 PM
Can you pass Diagnostic Tests and still have ADD? andhlms Adult Diagnosis & Treatment 5 11-08-12 03:16 AM
Very anxious over ADHD tests tomorrow morning Gellicat Adult Diagnosis & Treatment 33 08-11-10 08:41 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 2003 - 2015 ADD Forums