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ADD News News from around the world about ADD/ADHD, other disorders, and some rather bizzarre & strange stories.

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  #136  
Old 01-30-14, 05:37 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by Amtram View Post
There's also been studies on directionality. There's no question that it's incredibly difficult to provide the perfect, nurturing environment for a child who's difficult. Especially if you don't have the professional resources available (physically or financially) to teach you how to cope.

Dave, ADHD is considered a "spectrum disorder," which means you can have almost no problems, or you can be pretty much disabled from it. However, this includes not only the severity of the ADHD-associated symptoms, but also the number of symptoms experienced, and the comorbid conditions that complicate it. You see it right here on the forums, where some people are chugging along, married, employed, more frustrated than anything, and other people who just can't do anything without help.
are there any mental illnesses that aren't a spectrum disorder?

ones you just have or you don't?
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  #137  
Old 01-30-14, 06:04 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by daveddd View Post
are there any mental illnesses that aren't a spectrum disorder?

ones you just have or you don't?
Interesting question. How about physical illnesses?

Either you have the flu or you don't, but some people do get much sicker with it than others.

Or look at migraine disorder. Not everyone has nausea or diarrhea.

The preceeding aura can be visual or olfactory or something else.

The pain can be one-sided or all over, or even in the gut.

Yet they all fall under the classification of migraine disorder.

So I wouldn't be at all surprised if all mental illness also follows a spectrum.
.
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  #138  
Old 01-31-14, 03:06 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Why is it called a 'spectrum disorder" isn't that just a fancy way of saying different levels of severity?

Just like.. I got the flu, only I got a really bad case of the flu

different levels of severity can be found in all illness can't it?
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  #139  
Old 01-31-14, 03:25 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

This guy is trying to sell a book... That's all.

Read it with a grain of salt...
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  #140  
Old 01-31-14, 09:59 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Also. . .a self-published book.

From a company whose marketing strategy is to attract people whose "innovative thinking" prevents them from being published by companies that produce vetted literature.
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  #141  
Old 02-25-14, 09:02 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

That's because ADHD isn't in the brain, it's in the liver and stomach possibly. Your specific enzymes are what catylze conversions between various precursors, a variance in these are proven to exist among all peope. Ironically rapid stimulant metabolizers like myself seem to have a higher predisposition for it. It has to do with how long the catecholamines receptors in your brain can be affected based on the availability of precursors. A fast metabolism or insufficient metabolism of things like trace amines, pea, tyrosine, tryptophan, can cause this. Many enzymes for digestion are produced in the stomach but if your lower intestines are inflamed due to imflammation at a cellular level than absorption becomes difficult as well.

Personally I have been looking into it and notice one key element on all the meds that treat adhd and bipolar and depression. Almost all of them either directly or indirectly reduce inflammation in the body.

Many do this by reducing cortisol in the brain which has a calming effect. Mood stabilizers do this significantly. This is why I believe ssri's/anti depressants and moodstabilizers take 3 months to work because your endocrine system is a slow change system.


So in short, it takes an endocrinologist to analyze this not a neurologist. He can only see brain imaging, if it's not on his image, it does exist, to him anyways.

On a less related note, doctors need more cross training
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  #142  
Old 02-27-14, 03:02 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

It's a very weak argument saying ADD doesn't exist on the basis of it covering up simpler causes.

What if all the simpler causes have been explored and turn up nothing ?

He really should know better. Neurologists can see increased theta and delta waves in EEGs with those with ADD / ADHD than normal, which are corrected by stimulants.
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  #143  
Old 02-27-14, 06:20 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by InvitroCanibal View Post
That's because ADHD isn't in the brain, it's in the liver and stomach possibly.
Research has found a statistical tendency toward neurological differences in people diagnosed with ADHD.

An assertion like this could use some citation.
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  #144  
Old 02-27-14, 06:38 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by InvitroCanibal View Post
That's because ADHD isn't in the brain, it's in the liver and stomach possibly. Your specific enzymes are what catylze conversions between various precursors, a variance in these are proven to exist among all peope. Ironically rapid stimulant metabolizers like myself seem to have a higher predisposition for it. It has to do with how long the catecholamines receptors in your brain can be affected based on the availability of precursors. A fast metabolism or insufficient metabolism of things like trace amines, pea, tyrosine, tryptophan, can cause this. Many enzymes for digestion are produced in the stomach but if your lower intestines are inflamed due to imflammation at a cellular level than absorption becomes difficult as well.

Personally I have been looking into it and notice one key element on all the meds that treat adhd and bipolar and depression. Almost all of them either directly or indirectly reduce inflammation in the body.

Many do this by reducing cortisol in the brain which has a calming effect. Mood stabilizers do this significantly. This is why I believe ssri's/anti depressants and moodstabilizers take 3 months to work because your endocrine system is a slow change system.


So in short, it takes an endocrinologist to analyze this not a neurologist. He can only see brain imaging, if it's not on his image, it does exist, to him anyways.

On a less related note, doctors need more cross training
I've never come across this theory. Do you have any sources where I can read it more in depth?
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  #145  
Old 02-27-14, 08:39 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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I've never come across this theory. Do you have any sources where I can read it more in depth?
I second that motion. Where did you get that, Invitro? Its becoming more and more obvious that the intestinal tract has a tremendous influence on general health and well being, but this idea is totally new to me.
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  #146  
Old 02-27-14, 02:52 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by Fortune View Post
Research has found a statistical tendency toward neurological differences in people diagnosed with ADHD.

An assertion like this could use some citation.

The imaging was debunked. If the imaging did work and were the case we'd all be getting brain scans to prove our ADHD, and Dr.Amen would be the one leading the way as mental disorders enter a new era of proof and differential expertise.

I can provide research in my next post because as soon as I minimize this screen, it will close out on me.

A lot of this is somewhat a common sense factor, a 3 month effectiveness time for mood stabilizers or anti depressants indicates 2 things. Either BDNF or Endocrine relations. Now, you may ask how mood stabilizers or antidepressants relate to ADHD. Many mood stabilizers are being prescribed as an alternative to stimulants as well as anti depressants. If snri's were only useful for ADHD because of the neuroepinephrine component, than why doesn't strattera work effectively for more ADHD types?

The second aspect is that ADHD people do infact get the calming effect more often than non adhd people. I found only one study that said otherwise which was done in the 1970's, on children. They hardly had as much of an understanding on the disorder then. They also tended to misdiagnose it on dyslexic and autistic children. If you can find another study, by all means post or send it to me. My opinion is only as good as the information I find.

To say ADHD doesn't exist has a financial motivator by the way.

A lot of this has to do with the insurance companies that provide health care lobbying for ADHD to disappear. They fear the medications aspect because a lot of their profits are being lost to ADHD patients who must take medications for the rest of their life. It's mainly about the insurance companies losing money. Theirs a silent war going on between the pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies.

The predicted ratio of ADHD people was surmised to be around 20 percent of the population in 1999. This was stated in a frontline interview with Dr.Dodson. Now as time has gone on this is where the rates are heading and everyones having a freak out.
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  #147  
Old 02-27-14, 03:04 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

No, imaging is not debunked. ADHD is an umbrella term possibly for a lot of possible different disorders that have a similar manifestation in symptomology (inattention, impulsiveness and hyperactivity). Meaning, your "ADHD" could be caused by less receptors in the brain, mine could be something wrong with the limbic system and prefrontal cortex. Just because 20 people here have this part wrong, 40 in another area... does not mean imaging is debunked.

It means we don't know what is ADHD and what is not. We see images of different things happening in the brain, but which is actually "ADHD" is not known.

Look here for example: a systematic review of different studies on where ADHD is in the brain. Differs by study, by gender, by comorbid conditions... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...24977X13003428 This study came to the conclusion that brain volumes normalize eventually, but other studies have seen the opposite.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd...ging-data-adhd this is a very good summary of current research (well kind of there's a lot more recent stuff, but this is a good summary of what research has found from imaging of brains with ADHD.
"Neuropsychological studies have implicated the frontal cortical regions of the brain and the circuits linking them to the basal ganglia as critical to executive function, attention and the ability to exercise inhibition... Replicable findings using larger samples have implicated brain regions long suspected to play a role in ADHD, but have also identified neural circuitry not previously considered in the context of pathophysiological models. Neuroimaging assays have most consistently implicated abnormalities of the dorsal prefrontal cortex and basal ganglia in the pathophysiology of ADHD..."

"Neuroimaging data indicated, in addition to smaller prefrontal and basal ganglia structures, a decreased volume of the posterior-inferior vermis of the cerebellum (Berquin et al., 1998; Castellanos et al., 2001; Mostofsky et al., 1998), a region that is thought to be important in attentional processing (Middleton and Strick, 1994). Furthermore, the interpretation of some data proposes increased density of striatal dopamine transporters in adults with ADHD (Dougherty et al., 1999; Dresel et al., 2000). One study, however, reported no significant difference in striatal dopamine transporter density (van Dyck et al., 2002).

"Genetic assays of executive attention (e.g., examining the gene that codes for catechol-O-methyltransferase [COMT]) have been few but with intriguing results (Fan et al., 2003, 2001; Fossella et al., 2003, 2002a, 2002b). For example, control participants with the valine/valine genotype showed somewhat more efficient conflict resolution (i.e., lower Stroop conflict) than participants with the valine/methionine genotype (Sommer et al., 2004). The valine allele of COMT, which confers relatively higher levels of enzyme activity and thus lower relative amounts of extrasynaptic dopamine, has been examined in the context of neuroimaging studies in which it was correlated with lower activity of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (Egan et al., 2001). Frontal attentional networks may provide insights into pathologies of higher cognition, but there is already compelling evidence relating these networks to ADHD (Berger and Posner, 2000).

In conclusion, the hypothesis that ADHD is a syndrome with multiple distinct endophenotypes and several different etiological mechanisms (Castellanos and Tannock, 2002) must be constrained by neuroimaging findings and behavioral results. Measures of cognitive inhibition, working memory and temporal processing will likely illuminate the neural bases of ADHD and further operationalize the roles of attention, impulsivity and disinhibition in the formulation of ADHD pathophysiology.


In other words I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS "NEUROLOGIST" IS LOOKING AT~ HE'S NOT LOOKING AT IMAGING THAT'S FOR CERTAIN. IT'S THERE ON THE STUPID SCANS, SO WHY CAN'T HE SEE IT?
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  #148  
Old 02-27-14, 03:22 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21442976/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3184556/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3139398/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7572706/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247186/
http://www.additudemag.com/q&a/ask_t...rint/7267.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ws/dodson.html

There's most sources, read away

Last edited by namazu; 02-27-14 at 03:28 PM.. Reason: Changed ADDitude mag link to the "print" version without extraneous ads/links.
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Old 02-27-14, 03:26 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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No, imaging is not debunked.
http://quackwatch.org/06ResearchProjects/amen.html
theres more let me know if you need more
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Old 02-27-14, 03:34 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

I checked the first two sources. that did not say that imaging is debunked. The first one basically proposed that immune problems are associated with ADHD. The second one said that of 67 people in the study, 10 had celiac. And the third study basically proposed that our gut plays a big role in our eating and sleeping and then they talked about how it could be related to autism.

These do not debunk imaging of ADHD in the brain. You can take a nice look at a brain imaging scan in any study about the matter and it will be there.

The gut could certainly play a role in ADHD, but I don't think from what you have shown, the evidence is there in either direction. But certainly people who have allergies look like they have ADHD and in people with ADHD and have allergies, if you minimize the foods associated it decreases symptoms. But I don't think we are ready to say, ADHD is caused by the gut issues. Association is not causation and the evidence is not strong enough to make that link.

And the fourth study about fatty acid metabolism is also not set in stone. There have been several studies that contradict those findings and several that back it up.

My suggestion would be to look for meta-analysis of data about gut metabolism and ADHD. A meta-analysis or systematic review is stronger evidence of a proposed theory than one study alone. A study alone does not prove anything, it merely points in a direction for more research. Also look for randomized-control studies, and if you can find a systematic review of RCT for gut metabolism and ADHD it would be more stronger than what you have shown. What is necessary is critical analysis
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