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  #91  
Old 01-25-14, 03:25 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

According to me Richard Saul doesn't exist. Does that mean he doesn't exist?

I can't believe how insensitive thoses "doctors" are. Evidence is all over the place and they keep saying those things, giving a harder life to people who already have a lot on their plates.

Geez, don't they have empathy?
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  #92  
Old 01-26-14, 10:12 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

He might be right that some people are misdiagnosed... but ADHD is real. Ability discrepancies related to ADHD are real. I think as technology becomes better and neurology gets more advanced technological tools, and genetics become more and more uncovered. We'll find definitive diagnosis for adhd.
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  #93  
Old 01-26-14, 11:25 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

I'm curious, what is the difference between treating symptoms of AD(H)D and treating AD(H)D?



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  #94  
Old 01-27-14, 09:36 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

We don't know what causes it with absolute certainty, so we can't treat it. Treating a disease or condition means treating the cause and either curing it or halting the progress. If you don't know the cause (or the cause isn't treatable, which is very often the case with ongoing conditions) then you treat the symptoms.

We can't treat amputated limbs even though we know the cause, but we can treat the symptoms of pain, phantom limb, and compensation for the missing limb.

We can't treat missing insulin-producing cells in the pancreas, but we can treat the symptoms of diabetes and medically compensate for the lack of insulin.

The problem with Saul is that he's saying that the condition is fake because we don't know the cause. That's out-and-out fakery, because we have a huge number of conditions, including those that don't even involve the brain, that have clearly obvious symptoms, but whose causes have not yet been discovered. In many cases, the symptoms are painful or debilitating.

Using the same logic Saul proposes, we should withhold pain medication from patients in physical agony because we don't know exactly why they're hurting. A patient who comes into a hospital with the beginnings of organ failure or a suppurating rash should be sent home until the bacterium or virus or even parasite is isolated and treatment specific to that pathogen is developed. This is not how medicine operates, thank goodness.
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  #95  
Old 01-27-14, 04:39 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

I thought AD(H)D diagnosis was made, only after attempts to treat individual symptoms where made.

Especially since there is multiple causation factors.

Not all people who suffer with AD(H)D symptoms have the same causation factors.


I'm curious to know how much the symptoms, could be part of the cause, interrupting development.

Predisposition may, or may not exist, depending on individual circumstances.

Although I think Saul makes some important points, it saddens me that he must deny the existence of AD(H)D impairments, to focus on treating the symptoms first or treat those who have been misdiagnosed.

I think there is enough neurological evidence to show impairment physically exists. (in more mature individuals with ADD)

Emotional pain can definitely be a result of having ADD impairments.

I am curious to know, if emotional pain can "cause" some ADD impairments.






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  #96  
Old 01-27-14, 06:50 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

We treat symptoms all the time without knowing all the necessary details of causation.

Anyone here suffer migraines? One could easily take Saul's pronouncements about ADHD and substitute the word "migraine" and thereby pronounce that migraines do not exist, and since painkillers address only the symptoms, we should stop handing them out like candy.

And if I'm reading Peripheral's post correctly, you would go to the doctor with a migraine, and the doctor would spend a lot of time trying to determine whether your migraine was caused by stress or some other factor, and withhold pain medication until all the possible causes had been addressed and work on those rather than take care of the immediate problem, which is searing, blinding pain that makes it impossible for you to function in a world where the majority of people don't experience migraines.

Saul's pronouncements eliminate the possibility not only that ADHD exists, but also that its symptoms are real and not based in other much more easily diagnosable conditions. He honestly believes that every symptom can be eliminated with glasses or better sleep habits or more exercise, and if they can't, then they're being faked and we shouldn't give in and treat these clearly imaginary symptoms, being made up by drama queens seeking attention, with medications.
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  #97  
Old 01-27-14, 06:59 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Quote:
I am curious to know, if emotional pain can "cause" some ADD impairments.
I don't believe it works that way, although emotional pain can certainly make the disorder more difficult to handle.
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  #98  
Old 01-27-14, 07:02 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
I don't believe it works that way, although emotional pain can certainly make the disorder more difficult to handle.
i guess it depends what you call emotional pain

barkley states clearly that emotional dysregulation and emotional impulsiveness are core features of the disorder

causing their own very severe set of impairments
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  #99  
Old 01-27-14, 08:15 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Barkley is saying that the condition causes the emotional issues, not that the emotional issues cause the condition. It's been studied quite a bit, and it's not only Barkley who's saying it. The emotional issues also exist before language development and even in children in friendly, supportive environments. (Which could well be considered appropriate treatment of the emotional issues, and a further example of how treating the emotional issues does not treat, much less cure, ADHD.)
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  #100  
Old 01-27-14, 10:48 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amtram View Post
We treat symptoms all the time without knowing all the necessary details of causation.

Anyone here suffer migraines? One could easily take Saul's pronouncements about ADHD and substitute the word "migraine" and thereby pronounce that migraines do not exist, and since painkillers address only the symptoms, we should stop handing them out like candy.

And if I'm reading Peripheral's post correctly, you would go to the doctor with a migraine, and the doctor would spend a lot of time trying to determine whether your migraine was caused by stress or some other factor, and withhold pain medication until all the possible causes had been addressed and work on those rather than take care of the immediate problem, which is searing, blinding pain that makes it impossible for you to function in a world where the majority of people don't experience migraines.

Saul's pronouncements eliminate the possibility not only that ADHD exists, but also that its symptoms are real and not based in other much more easily diagnosable conditions. He honestly believes that every symptom can be eliminated with glasses or better sleep habits or more exercise, and if they can't, then they're being faked and we shouldn't give in and treat these clearly imaginary symptoms, being made up by drama queens seeking attention, with medications.
Amtram,

We are discussing ADHD.

I had to wait a year before getting an appointement with a ADHD specialist.

I think that is part of the diagnosis process where I am from.

I had to get old report cards, parents and other people I am close to fill out forms, check for prior head injuries and other medical issues, etc.

I agree with that long process, these medications are very powerful, and there is a lot to explore before making the decision to medicate.



Are you saying that symptoms should not be explored/treated before diagnosing a person ADHD?



ADHD is very serious, but it is not a death sentence.

Are you saying people who think they have ADHD symptoms should be treated with medication on the first appointment, without ruling out other medical issues that mimic ADHD?

If so, I think your providing "ammunition" for Saul's point.


(For the record I take medication with success for my ADD impairments.)

This medication works for me, but I don't think medication use should ever be the first line of treatment.




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  #101  
Old 01-27-14, 10:53 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

This guy sounds like a real butt plug
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Old 01-27-14, 10:54 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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This guy sounds like a real butt plug
I seriously think we should close this thread and let that be the final word on the matter.
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  #103  
Old 01-28-14, 07:49 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amtram View Post
Barkley is saying that the condition causes the emotional issues, not that the emotional issues cause the condition. It's been studied quite a bit, and it's not only Barkley who's saying it. The emotional issues also exist before language development and even in children in friendly, supportive environments. (Which could well be considered appropriate treatment of the emotional issues, and a further example of how treating the emotional issues does not treat, much less cure, ADHD.)
this doesn't make sense




do you have a reference saying that the emotional issues are caused by the adhd and not a part of it

I've never seen that anywhere
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  #104  
Old 01-28-14, 10:35 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?...veness+barkley
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  #105  
Old 01-28-14, 10:38 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Yes. Read one of Barkley's books, watch Joel Nigg's videos, check out any of the UCDavis Human Condition or MIND institute videos. Go onto PubMed and search the published research. It's not even a tiny bit difficult to find. The research on this has been going on for more than 70 years, even though the name has changed a couple of times.
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