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  #16  
Old 03-22-05, 02:21 AM
Coral Rhedd Coral Rhedd is offline
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymama05
It was a long road of self-discovery! But well worth the trip. I learned many invaluable lessons. People may not be who they seem. Take your time, get to know someone. And most important, trust my instincts! (I ignored my instincts during the abusive stages of my life)

And Coral, I am so sorry to hear of your daughter Suzanna's plight. Sometimes the verbal and controlling behavior can be so much more destructive due to it being so subtle that the recipient does not know what is happening until they have totally lost themselves. Kudos to her for getting out. Some dont, they would continue to make excuses for and forgive until it is too late.
I am so glad you found the right path and the right man. That part about instincts. There is a self-protection expert who wrote a book called The Gift of Fear and I recommend it every chance I get because it is so wise. He emphasizes over and over how important it is that we learn to trust our instincts. If our little voice tells us something -- no matter how it may contradict appearances -- we should listen.

Suzanna says that she didn't really feel comfortable with Lonnie when she first met him but she let his good looks and his flattery distract her.

I consulted her before posting her story. She was cool with it.
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  #17  
Old 03-22-05, 01:37 PM
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Sounds like a book my daughter's and I should have the benefit of. Thanks.
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Old 03-22-05, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RhapsodyInBlue
Emotional abuse is murder of the soul.
That's true in a perfectly scientific way, too.

Kay and I have a definition of rape, the forced self violation of another person, in which we mean to imply both that the victim's self is violated, and also that the victim is forced to commit the actual violation.

A person's self is changed arbitrarily in this process. That's the murder of the soul thing in a nutshell, and it's real.

That is what sets it apart from all other crimes, and it doesn't matter a whit if there is sex involved. All that matters is a person is forced to make themselves into something they are not.

On the flip side, there's a positive escape from the whole problem, once the nature of the underlying mechanisms are identified.

(Hold on 'til the end, it isn't as bad as it sounds…)

The correct view is that women have built in genetic 'defects' that allow men to make them do these things, violate their self model to construct what the male wants her to be.

I know that's hard to accept, but truly understanding it brings you face-to-face with the fact that the self model that gets violated is just a model after all, just a vessel for the kernel of being that we all carry inside, the real self.

And the model a male forces you to make isn't yours. It isn't even you. Once you see it correctly, you can abandon everything but the trauma. And often, you can clearly see it coming the next time, and step out of the way.

Coral Rhedd's daughter would have been in pain, but she wouldn't have felt responsible, and she certainly wouldn't have had to suffer from a poor self image.

Isn't it funny how that kind of thing is how we all recognize what's happened to a person? It's the definition of an inappropriate change, something a person is forced to make in themselves not by their own choice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coral Rhedd
…That part about instincts. There is a self-protection expert who wrote a book called The Gift of Fear and I recommend it every chance I get because it is so wise. He emphasizes over and over how important it is that we learn to trust our instincts. If our little voice tells us something -- no matter how it may contradict appearances -- we should listen…
The problem we have with this advice in general is that the mechanisms in women that allow men to force them to change themselves against their will all seem like one of these little voices you should listen to.

I don't know this book, and some advice is sound. When we talk about recognizing the mechanisms by which women are 'got' and learning to avoid them, it ends up sounding a bit like this, too.

But we've seen books that openly encourage women to engage in what we recognize as dangerous activity, trusting their instincts in situations that lead women into trouble all the time.

Do these authors think that the women that get into bad situations in a club or bar are stupid? I've never met a woman in any social situation that wasn't trying to act in her own best interests, even while walking right into something we knew was volatile at best.

There is no way that Coral Rhedd is going to accept the basic idea that her daughter is stupid as an explanation, and she is absolutely right in that.

The hardest thing for a woman (and men, too) to learn is that there are some instincts that you can't trust, that we all move through life in a frail human vehicle that has defects, some of which would cause us to betray our own selves.

And alcohol doesn't have anything to do with it. The only relationship to alcohol is the place where it happens. Look around long enough in any community anywhere, and you will find at least one perfectly sober woman being taken advantage of by a person of power in a local religious organization.

No matter that it somehow seems much worse; church secretaries are targets just like barflies, and they are as likely to fall when a deceitful male decides to apply the correct pressure.


+-------------------------------------+

I guess what we're saying is that women need to develop an instinct for when they can't trust their instincts, and then learn to listen to only the little voice of that single instinct.

+-------------------------------------+


The books we trust say something that is equivalent to that; the ones that make us suspicious don't say it at all.

That's what works for us; once you get it, you see it everywhere, and it can be a bit hard to take at first. If you find that some old favorite romantic movies have lost their luster, you're in the right place.
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Old 03-22-05, 04:32 PM
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Stabile

Maybe I misunderstood your entire post, but in a less eloquent manner I say this, horsehocky!

In part you are correct about rape being about a man forcing someone to be something they arent, but ultimately, rape has nothing really to do with sex. It is all about violence and control. (unfortunately, I speak from experience.) And I can tell you, the situation that led me there, my little voices were telling me then not to go. Something is terribly wrong. But I didnt listen. I thought to myself, that this is a trusted person, he would never hurt me.........

I am not formally educated, obviously, but I did get one hell of a "street" education. Things are much diffenent from what they may seem from a formally educated person.

And the instinct thing.........it is when we hear it, AND IGNORE IT, that gets us into trouble. Not which little "voice" to listen to. (mine BTW is more of a gut feeling of sorts, it gets all knotted up and seems to turn in on itself)

Just curious, where did the idea of stupidity on the part of Coral's daughter come from. I dont think I mentioned stupidity anywhere. None of us are stupid. We are taken advantage of.

And I dont consider it a "genetic defect" allowing a male to make me do things, or become someone I am not. I believe it has more to do with socail acceptance. We have been placed in the same role for generations. Finally, the molds are being tossed away and women are more aggressive and attentive to reaching their own needs.

This is kind of a tricky spot. Trusting instincts, or listening to instincts. I think they are two different things, but I dont know how to explain it. And I now realize that "trust" is what I said. "To trust my own instincts."

Ok stabile, good point. Hows that for talking in circles.
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Old 03-22-05, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymama05
Stabile

Maybe I misunderstood your entire post, but in a less eloquent manner I say this, horsehocky!
I always thought Col. Potter was saying horsepucky. Oh well…


Quote:
In part you are correct about rape being about a man forcing someone to be something they arent, but ultimately, rape has nothing really to do with sex. It is all about violence and control. (unfortunately, I speak from experience.)
OK. We are also speaking from experience.

That is a technical definition, and a fairly subtle one at that. It's stood up well for over ten years now, and I expect it or something very similar will eventually become the standard.

I said that sex isn't necessary, but we tend to stay away from the usual phrases about rape, and the whole 'rape is about power' or violence, or control thing is really misunderstood.

It all stems from behavior associated with primitive reproductive impulses, so at the root, at least, it is about that. And understanding that behavior is the only way to break the loop.

One of the reasons that it's hard to accept what one sees when we learn to look for the underlying mechanisms is how much violence and exercise of power and control are right under the surface, in what most people accept as normal sexual behavior.

The key thing about the definition is the recognition that a person is forced to change the definition of who they are, what their true self is.

Back to that in a minute.


Quote:
And I can tell you, the situation that led me there, my little voices were telling me then not to go. Something is terribly wrong. But I didn't listen….
Why not? That's the only relevant question, exactly what we’re trying to establish…


Quote:
I thought to myself, that this is a trusted person, he would never hurt me.........
and there it is, pretty much exactly what we expected to hear.

Here's our question: why don't you consider that voice, the one saying, "…this is a trusted person, he would never hurt me…" to be the same voice that was saying don't go?

It gets worse, trying to unwind and analyze these things like this, and I hesitate to go too far with it. For example, there's every reason to expect that your memory of the voice saying 'it's OK' is constructed from the debris after the fact, incorrectly.

It's more likely that you didn't have the thought at all until the first time you reconstructed the memory of what happened. In a way, it's you explaining to yourself why what you think you did seemed to make sense at the time.

The truth is likely that it didn't make sense at all, but nothing else did at that moment either.

What we know of the deep mechanisms includes an understanding of how the actual model of your self is assembled, and that is a scary thing to behold.

But once you get used to it, it's trivial to see how anyone's idea of what they are and where they've been is vulnerable, a fragile collection of reconstructed memories that are all too easy to get wrong.

We believe the truth of anything we perceive is what we can make sense of. What happens during rape has purposely selected over thousands of years to not have any sense at all, in the conventional way we think of things.

'No' doesn't mean 'no' because it doesn't mean anything; in order to rape, a person must go beyond the social context in which meaning itself is defined, to circumvent the meaning in what is being done to the victim.

In the usual circumstances, a person reconstructs an idea about her self and her experience that includes reasons for what she 'did'. The trick is, there is no reason, and 'she' didn't do anything. If anything of note happened at all, it was to someone else, temporarily constructed by her from her own mind and body under duress.

Weird, isn't it? The thing is, this is a literal, scientifically supported interpretation of what happens.

The deep primitive mechanisms are essentially a kind of 'off' button for a woman's self model, because they allow a male to take her outside the social context just long enough to make the changes that will cause her to reassemble herself in a form more to his liking.

If that seems devious, realize that it's entirely in keeping with the general sense of desperation rampant in the single male world.

As consciousness, self-determination, and the appearance of free will became the norm after the invention of complex abstract language, the primitive mating strategy was squeezed into an increasingly strange form that includes areas of our personal universe that are blank, what Kay and I call 'black holes'.

Black holes serve to prevent us from recognizing that the primitive mating strategy is still alive and kicking. In a practical experiential sense, you can think of black holes as allowing you to see a situation in two completely different and contradictory ways, depending on how you got there. Both ways of seeing the situation seem completely sensible, at the time and forever after as well.

The only way to reconcile the memory of what you do while taking the sense of the situation one way with the memories of the other sense of it is to avoid the other interpretation, or 'lose' one set of memories, or invent a reason for the change and then compulsively pursue behavior that supports the 'new' you.

Or, you can do what Kay and I did, and dive right into the whole mess.

Sometimes I'm amazed we managed to come up again intact, and I can't recommend it.

Besides, it's not necessary. Kay is fond of saying we did that so others won't have to, and she's right. There isn't any reason to go under and try to make sense of all the debris, because it isn't really yours anyway.

The reason we did it was to understand how it gets put there, and unless you're interested in studying the theory you might as well stay home, because that is the only thing you can learn from it. Your history is not in there anywhere.

It's far more useful to learn how to interpret what your memories of an experience are likely to represent, and cultivating a doubt of your own memories is a difficult enough task in itself.

In the end, it turns all out to be a d*** safety mechanism for the rapist. He takes a quick chance on doing this little trick that is about self-definition, not sex, and if it works, he's got a woman that wants to do what he thinks is fun. Who cares what damage she does to herself while doing it, right?

If it doesn't work, it's no biggie. It wasn't about sex at all, and the worst that happens is he gets written up for inappropriate behavior.


Quote:
I am not formally educated, obviously…
Boy, is that not true. It's not obvious at all.

Don't sell yourself short; we ADDers are really good at it, and it's probably our most dangerous trait.

Kay's first rule: We're never more dangerous than when we think it's OK to beat ourselves up.

Kay's second rule: Always look for the benevolent view, especially of yourself.


Quote:
…but I did get one hell of a "street" education. Things are much different from what they may seem from a formally educated person…
Not hardly. Some people can fool themselves into believing they're different, but we all live in the same world, especially when it comes to this stuff.

Around here, a highly respected college professor, now fired and convicted of rape, is having his sentence contested by the DA because it consists of a relatively short period of house arrest.

If he was just a janitor, he would have been put away for ten years or so. But then, a janitor wouldn't have had access to the daughter of family friends, come to town to attend grad school.

The professor had the privilege of her looking him up (at his suggestion, of course). He took her to dinner, and then perhaps a dozen different bars, get her drunk, and then did his thing by force back in his office.

He couldn't take her home, because he has a wife and kids.

The janitor would have had to skip over the expensive dinner and pub crawl and go straight to the force. That's too big a jump for most people; as a species, we like to pretend, especially us males.

The professor had been doing the same thing for years and getting away with it because he managed to make it seem plausible to the victims that they might have somehow wanted to do it. I guess he was tired of the charade that night.

That difference, between the professor and the janitor, isn't what we're talking about. When it comes to real stuff, things that matter, we’re all the same. And our hypothetical janitor still has his dignity, and his job.

I'll take that any day.


Quote:
And the instinct thing.........it is when we hear it, AND IGNORE IT, that gets us into trouble.
Nobody is that stupid, and I can guarantee you aren't just by the way that you express yourself.

By the same token, don't you think if it was that simple we would have fixed the problem long ago? What mom would withhold that information from her daughter?


Quote:
Not which little "voice" to listen to. (mine BTW is more of a gut feeling of sorts, it gets all knotted up and seems to turn in on itself)
Kay calls them whispers.

I didn't say women should learn which voice to listen to, did I? I meant to state unequivocally that women shouldn't necessarily listen to the voices they do hear. They need to cultivate a different voice to tell them when they shouldn't listen to something that seems perfectly reasonable.

It's a question of learning what voice you can trust, I think, and accepting that sometimes there's a reason for not trusting one. I vote for only trusting one you create, because it hasn't been messed with by anyone else, not even nature.


Quote:
Just curious, where did the idea of stupidity on the part of Coral's daughter come from. I dont think I mentioned stupidity anywhere. None of us are stupid. We are taken advantage of…
Boy is that ever the truth.

You didn't say anything about Coral Rhedd's daughter being stupid. I said that there is no way that she is, but it could have been misinterpreted if you skimmed it.

The funny thing about all of this is that the only people that end up being stupid are the males.

Think about that college professor for a minute. The only people that are going to suffer for his crime, regardless of the sentence, are his wife and kids. What the heck could he be thinking?

There really are a hundred janitors that he once had the power to hire and fire that are demonstrably more intelligent than he is. He once tried to promote one of them (a female, of course) to the position of 'lab manager', but she wouldn't have anything to do with it.


Quote:
And I dont consider it a "genetic defect" allowing a male to make me do things, or become someone I am not…
The defect label is meant to be taken lightly. But it certainly exists, regardless of whether you wish it so. I am sorry. It's not my idea, and I would abolish it if I could.

I've been trying for a lot of years. So far all I've gained is the opportunity to speak in public like this about it. But don't laugh; that's significant progress.


Quote:
I believe it has more to do with social acceptance. We have been placed in the same role(s) for generations…
By what? It's literally true, but it's important to recognize where those roles come from. They're defined in the basic package of impulses, behaviors, roles and goals that are associated with each of the two human mating strategies.

The roles are dressed up to fit the current cultural context, but underneath they're strictly defined and haven't varied much in the past, even over a time scale of centuries.

If you haven't run across our description of the two strategies yet, there's a modern one commonly called long term pair bonding, based on matching status with your mate.

And there's a primitive one we call 'quickie under a bush' that is entirely based on the principle that the female has no choice. In other words, rape.

Several higher primates have similar pairs of strategies. The modern strategies differ quite a bit, but the primitive ones are all remarkably similar. The roles are similar, too.

The actual number of generations that this has been going on would probably surprise you. The primitive strategy apparently predates everything except mating behavior itself.


Quote:
Finally, the molds are being tossed away and women are more aggressive and attentive to reaching their own needs.
Amen to that, and we are certain that you're right about it, too. Things are changing fast, for the first time in perhaps a hundred thousand years, and we want to make sure we don't drag the primitive strategy into the future with us.

Even if we have to leave men behind. (grin…)


Quote:
This is kind of a tricky spot. Trusting instincts, or listening to instincts. I think they are two different things, but I dont know how to explain it. And I now realize that "trust" is what I said. "To trust my own instincts."

Ok stabile, good point. Hows that for talking in circles.
Pretty nifty, I'd say. Thanks. Trust is the trick, and figuring out what you can trust and when is the answer.

(Honest. Would I kid you? I know I'm a guy, but hey, I really care. Really.)

(Jeeze, I wouldn't trust me, either. Why would you? Because of something I wrote? I hope not…)
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  #21  
Old 03-22-05, 10:08 PM
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Stabile,

Wow. I am still digesting your post, the recent one, and the one I replied to. After reading it a second time, I was off base. I did misinterpret most of that actually. So, I am carefully rereading both of them before I fly off the handle again.

You are probably right, it is horsepucky, but I prefer horsehocky. Sorry, I am not sure how to turn off my italics, I hit something by accident. LOL

I have a question for you......who ARE you? You have me looking hard inside myself for truth. I am not complaining, I am actually intrigued and would like to hear more...as long as you type slowly... But first I must read more. I am just fascinated with your perceptions and logic.


Now how the hell do I turn off the italics? Never mind....
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Old 03-23-05, 12:01 AM
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Knowing Narcissism

I sent Ian this link to begin with so I need to weigh in here. I think there is some confusion as to what the real issue is. The problem was the title of the article itself. Yes, Sam is a well known narcissist himself. His expertise is in helping to identify and deal with THAT PARTICULAR TYPE OF ABUSER. I hope it is obvious to all of us that narcissists are NOT THE ONLY TYPE OF ABUSER. Sam has never claimed this. While the characteristics mentioned may well be applicable to other abusers, and yes, at times to non-abusers, they are alarmingly, definitely evident in narcissists. The fact that Sam is a narcissist himself has in no way damaged his ability to convey the truth about them. I know this from experience. I know this because I lived through a relationship with one of these monsters. Before it was over I was emotionally devastated, physically beaten into a concussion, partial vision loss, a ruptured disc, and on and on....Any of you who believe this cannot happen, or are concerned about stereotyping abusers (something that boggles my mind, actually) need to be careful. You are setting yourselves up as the perfect mark.

As far as a narcissist goes, this article did not begin at the beginning. I think the intention behind it was a good one, however. Frankly, if a cluster of these traits are recognized by you in another person within a short period of time, I can find no reason why you would not high-tail it in the other direction. The issue of trying to determine narcissism is irrelevant. Just get outta there poste-haste. If you're fortunate enough to do that, you won't need to deal with all of the other horror that comes when the negative parts of the narcissist come out of hiding.

One of the hallmarks of the narcissist, left out of this article, is his/her ability to suck you in with a charm and sweetness, a magneticsm, an intellect and wit, a sense of self-confidence, and an utterly deep connection with you...everything, in short, you've always wanted. However, these people are not real. They present what is called a "false self." The truth is, they don't even know where the truth ends and the faking begins. And they are not interesting in learning. They do not care one iota. I've had many life experiences but can say without a doubt that dealing with a creature such as this was one of the most horrific. Anyone I've spoken to who has personally dealt with a narcissist has said the same thing. In the wake of these people you are left humiliated, feeling utterly worthless, and completely positive that any intelligence you thought you may have had was but a farce. After all, any smart person would see this before it got out of hand, right? Well, months later I can tell you this......NO. Don't delude yourselves. A person with a heart and soul and conscience in tact cannot relate to the thoughts or behaviors of this type of individual. You can never really know them because they don't even have a real self. They change like the turning of a spicket. Therefore, not being able to pick them out is NOT a sign that you are inferior. They are different people depending on what they can gain in a given situation. You fill a need for a moment. You are a supplier of whatever it is that boosts their ego. They will do or say anything to keep you trapped. And again, they are smart enough to succeed in many cases. I'm not being melodramatic. I'm telling you the truth which can be found in other sources if Sam's work does not appeal to you.

Another point, narcisissts aren't drawn to weakliings. They are drawn to people who will represent a conquest. I have interviewed some of the most accomplished and intelligent men and women only to find that they have been utterly shattered by this abuse. There is a definite pattern to who these people go after. Honestly, it sorta made me feel better. I figured if they went for the brighter bulbs in the box it was a bit of a compliment. Believe me, if you ever find yourself in the middle of this nightmare you'll take what little positive you can get. It will not be much because for all but an eternity afterwards you will blame yourself for anything and everything merely because you feel you should have been smarter, you should have been quicker to see.....you should have been more than a human being....

I have no doubt that Ian posted this link hoping to help. I'm clarifying it only becuse I'm concerned that in the debate over different types of abusers, the reliability of the source etc... the issue of narcissism itself will be lost. It is a very uncomfortable topic of conversation for me. However, to assume the article is not dead on in its accuracy is simply to make a mistake that could well cost more than anyone ever wanted to pay. It nearly happened to me and I'm no dummy, so please hear me when I tell you, this is not a trumped up description of a character that does not exist. This is a dead on description of a particular abuser who can be, and often is, deadly.

There is not a sentence in the original article that I did not personally experience. I was, by the end, doubtful of my own ability to think and reason, completely sure that I was the idiot, positive I had no insight, and certain my prior life of independence was something I could not return to. I had become alienated from everyone who ever cared for me. This is but one of their tools. They take you out in a desert and leave you there lost. When he stalked and slugged me I was greatful. There was no way to justify that as the actions of someone who simply needed more understanding. There was no way to assume that I had done something to deserve it. You may find it difficult to believe you would think this way about all of the other abuse. Believe me, if it happens you'll sing a different tune. I had never been physically attacked before, and I was not going to tolerate it. I ended up in the hospital but had him arrested immediately. Charges, of course, were taken out against him and I followed through on those charges. However, in the meantime he took out 4 charges against me. I was still in the hospital at the time. They were four charges I didn't even understand. There was absolutely no basis for them and the police as much as said so. They were four charges that have now been completely dismissed and expunged. But they were four charges that required me to enter a jail, be booked and fingerprinted, and have a mugshot taken which shows a hugely swollen black and blue face, and one terrified woman slumped over in a wheelchair. Why did he do it? Because, just as is mentioned in Sam's article......nothing is the fault of a narcissist. Nothing. After he beat me he looked at me and said...and I quote..."LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO." This is not a made up story, people. This was my life. Even during our court appearance he attempted to convince the judge his attorney was not doing her job. Are you hearing this?

Do not believe this does not exist. You would be passing up an opportunity to perhaps help someone, maybe yourself, should this particular evil pay a visit. I won in the end. He was found guilty and ordered to pay a hefty sum of money. He has already done it again to someone else. He still takes no responsibility. More important than any money, I learned. Do yourself a favor and consider this a lesson best learned vicariously. You don't want to live this one yourselves.

Do you remember how surprised you were to find a place such as this where all of the sudden you realized you weren't the only adult with ADD? Do you remember thinking, "Gosh, I can't believe how prevalent this is?" You may have known it logically, but to find others and interact with them brought a whole new understanding, right? Well, let me tell you, I've been stunned as I conduct interviews for a project, at the number of folks I continue to come across who've lived through the hell of a narcissist. In so many ways it is yet one more issue in the life of an adult that is far too easily shot down by people who simply do not understand it.

Peace.
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  #23  
Old 03-23-05, 12:11 AM
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Free,

Thank you for posting this. I have been in the wake of a female narcissist, and it is an experience I will never, ever forget. To this day, I am scared of her. Hide from her as much as is possible. I thought she was bright, friendly, and a warm person; someone who would be a good friend. How could I have been so wrong?

Your post explains it all.

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Old 03-23-05, 12:21 AM
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Viktoria, this was not easy for me to post but I felt it was important and could possibly help someone. Thanks for your kind words. I really appreciate them.
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Old 03-23-05, 01:53 AM
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free2beme
You have opened up my heart. This is as valuable for the people who know fear, as it is for those that don't.

I have to simply offer my thanks and hope to remain open to you.
Thank-you.
Ian.
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A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?

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  #26  
Old 03-23-05, 09:38 AM
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We are talking about exactly the same stuff, not some other thing.

The problem is the taxonomy. We don't believe it's at all helpful to women to characterize behavior that is directly related to and supportive of underlying sexual behaviors as being something separate, like narcissism.

The purpose of the term itself has been perverted from the original meaning, and we are suspicious of those that would co-opt terms that were appropriate for a time long ago, when we didn't know how to access our inner selves directly.

We believe that people that are dedicated to yanking outdated terminology into the present have an agenda, and it isn't to help women, or ADDers, or anyone but themselves.

If the person that wrote the article is a narcissist, why aren't we running as fast as we can away from his writing?

We believe that everyone starts out with good intentions almost exclusively, regardless of where that takes them. Most of us manage to stay true to our intent, but some get waylaid by their own nature.

This happens at all different levels, and at different points along the way.

Someone that is derailed immediately might not catch much attention, unless what they do gets into the paper, or they knock at your door to give you notice of their status as a registered offender.

Some manage to get to places we can only imagine before they lose it, like Ken Lay or Richard Nixon. But regardless of when or where they derail, it's always for the same reason: they hold onto some underlying part of themselves that is related to the issues we've been discussing, and it corrupts their judgment.

Why do you think the phenomenon of 'trophy wives' exists? Why do pretty young secretaries lose their minds and marry beat up, sagging, balding bosses? Isn't that always about power? And what else have we been talking about?

It's all the same thing, and I don't trust people that try to put a taxonomic wall, a verbal shield, between women and their direct perception of their inner selves.

They have an agenda, and it is not good: they want to preserve all women, for their own use. Isn't that what the collection of traits called narcissism is all about?

We have been inside this, into the murkiest depths you can imagine. We have swum through the most unimaginably foul garbage and debris, and spent months after we escaped trying to get clean.

The one thing we know for certain, after all of that, is there isn't any shortcut that works.

Using outdated terms as a model to engender discussion is fine, as long as we watch closely for signs that someone we care for is actually starting to believe that there is a real thing like narcissism.

A verbal framework is one thing; letting it become real is dangerous. We know that everyone here is able to look into themselves and see directly what causes behaviors that look like narcissism.

We can work directly with the real stuff. Lets let old ideas fade away, once they've stimulated a conversation. It is the only thing that can make you and the people you love safe.

We can do this. We have the ability. We only need to nurture it, and believe in ourselves.
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  #27  
Old 03-23-05, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by free2bme
Are you hearing this?
Yup.

And thanks for posting this; it takes a kind of special courage to try to put these things into words. We know all about that.

Speaking about these things is made purposely difficult by the structure of language, even when they're your own personal experiences, even when speaking might save your life. That's why the few women who do get to court are already at a disadvantage. That's why the guy was able to get away with claiming he didn't do anything.

It's built into language itself, because it's built into all of us, male and female alike. Crazymama05 said it had to do with societal issues, and that is exactly the case.

But we are society; it's far more intertwined with how we define our own selves than anybody realizes, so we see unbelievable things and let them go by like a dream.


Quote:
Do not believe this does not exist…
The last time we looked at statistics, one in three women in the United States will have reported being raped at least once by the time they reach fifty. The ratio of reported to unreported rape at the time was about 9 or 10 to 1, which means either something is very wrong with the stats or we have a lot of women hidden away somewhere.

We looked at the studies and realized that the difference is directly due to language. What 'women reporting rape' means to the police is different than what it means to women.

A few years later, right here in our own city, the sex crimes unit of the police department was completely gutted and rebuilt with all new personnel. They had been regularly reclassifying reported rapes as things like arguments, or even purse snatchings, and burying the paper work.

The same thing is happening all over. When interviewed, the lead investigator (who had recently retired) said that "…most of these women are lying. If anything did happen, they wanted it." He didn't even blush when he said it.

Any woman going into court faces exactly that attitude. Any woman looking out her front door does, too. It's not right, it’s not fair, and it is so outrageous that it’s difficult to believe.

And you're so right: it certainly does exist.


Quote:
You would be passing up an opportunity to perhaps help someone, maybe yourself, should this particular evil pay a visit...
Do not doubt for a moment that every woman on the planet is visited by this. The basis of the primitive mating strategy is rape, and we all deal with that part of ourselves sometime in our lives.

The truth is, there is no woman alive that hasn't already been a victim of this. What determines what we call a female, 'woman' or 'girl', is often whether she's been exposed to it, and how much.

This eats at the heart of everyone alive. Nobody is immune.


Quote:
…He still takes no responsibility...
In the same way that a woman is literally not responsible for what happens to her while another person inhabits her body and mind,

these guys are correct: they are not responsible for being human, and wanting to do things that are perfectly natural human behaviors, built in long before they were born.

It is literally not any man's fault that he is a rapist, any more than it is a woman's fault that she is a victim; it's our human heritage, hard as that may be to accept.

But we ADDers are free to rise above that, not just hold it at bay, but really put that part of ourselves away and never bring it out again.

And make no mistake about this: the role of men and women is set by the strategy itself, woman as victim, man as rapist. It's perfectly natural, but the male has a choice. The woman doesn't. It will never be equal, and any guy that expresses his natural primitive nature is lying about not being able to control it.

He is not lying about it not being his responsibility. But that just isn't relevant; he chose to do it, and it's his fault it happened. By definition, the woman wasn't even there.

I think guys get stubborn because it doesn't seem fair that women don't bear some of the responsibility. Too bad, jerkwad.


Quote:
…You don't want to live this one yourselves…
With all respect (because you were lucky to survive, and most men are more careful about how they do these things), it's certain that every woman will experience this until we understand it in a way that allows us to stop it.


Quote:
…I've been stunned…at the number of folks I continue to come across who've lived through the hell of a narcissist...
Calling them that is too polite, and looking for narcissism in men is too polite, too.

Every male is born with rape in his toolkit, and it will not stop being a problem for men until they take the responsibility for dealing with it.

But it doesn't have to be a problem for women. We believe that when women finally crack this mess open (as seems to be happening here) and it finally begins to see the light of day, men that are unable to let go of their natural primitive reproductive behaviors will literally die out.

In the end, this is a species issue, and we're going to define what comes next by what we do about this now. Rape is rape, and it is unacceptable.

Although I don't think we'll see narcissism disappear right away, I can't imagine it lasting too long after its source is gone. But lets go after the source itself, OK?


Quote:
In so many ways it is yet one more issue in the life of an adult that is far too easily shot down by people who simply do not understand it…
Believe this, if nothing else: anybody that shoots it down does understand it. Like Kay says, it's everywhere.

You know it, your kids know it, the jerk on the stand knows it, the prosecutor, defense attorney, judge, everyone know about it. We have pretending built in, a protective barrier for the rapist that forces us to have long polite talks about stuff that really demands hard, harsh terms.

We're getting there, though. This whole discussion is intolerably rude by ordinary standards. Women aren't supposed to talk about avoiding men.

I like it…
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  #28  
Old 03-23-05, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by free2bme
…these people are not real. They present what is called a "false self."
I wanted to put this separately, because it's so important.

This is the literal truth of what happens, the idea that these people aren't real. The scientific understanding is complex and the implications a little unnerving, but it is well enough established that we can drop the quotes.

It really is a false self, and that seems to imply that there must be a real self. But there isn't, not in the sense that we usually mean real.

What there is, is a true self. (Get it? false self, true self…) The truth about 'selves' is that none of them is real; they're all just models in our minds.


What you're looking for is the person's true self, but if the person is clever (as is often the case), you might not be able to spot it.

However, you can reliably look for the inverse, whether the person you're looking at on that first date is not true, i.e., is false.

We only know one way to do that reliably, without regard for things like charm and cleverness and the ability to create the appearance of a connection. (We have come to truly despise that word…)


You have to step back, away from the emotional involvement (even if you don't see any) and look at the logic of the two of you being together.

Does it make sense? Would you expect the two of you to be there, at that moment, doing whatever it seems you're doing?

If you can see that being there was inevitable, and (especially) that something other than interest in each other brought your lives into contact, then you're probably safe.

However, if you have that heady omigod whatamidoing feeling, that's a pretty good indicator that something doesn't make sense.

That feeling itself is pretty interesting, because it always accompanies the process of changing yourself into something different without a good reason.

In fact, we don't know of a single valid example of that feeling. It is not the same as what you feel the first time you do something like skydiving, for example, or jumping off the high dive as a child.

It's a very particular feeling of shifting yourself, almost like watching yourself go outside your own boundaries arbitrarily, and do something that you can't quite believe; an external view of you.


This doesn't filter out people that are so screwed up that they seem narcissistic even when they are being true to themselves. But it defangs them as a group; the narcissists that are left after you weed out the false ones are relatively harmless, for the moment.

You'll see them change themselves into something false immediately if they decide to do anything more dangerous than drain you emotionally. Every male knows that taking that step involves presenting a false self, and the switch should be easy to spot, especially after you get to know a person.


This technique works, and it works by using your recognition of that strange feeling of being outside yourself against the thing that can cause it. That view is where you want to put yourself when you're looking to see if what's happening makes any sense.

You want to 'see' yourself and the path of your life from an external perspective, and Kay and I think that's exactly why the technique is so safe. Going into that state is a part of the primitive strategy built into all women, a key piece of the process of being forced to become a victim against your will.

We can use it to guard against the very thing it is intended to allow. We can go into that state at will, of course, just to look around and check on things, especially after we've experienced it once or twice and know what it feels like.

But if a woman does make a mistake, it's guaranteed that the first step will put her right there, where she can 'see' that things don't make sense, and that the guy is presenting a false self.

All it takes is getting in the habit of looking, and all that takes is understanding it and talking about it.

Some of you might recognize this; it's just the 'line of your life' stuff we've been talking about since we joined the forums. Maybe now it will make more sense to you.


Quote:
…The truth is, they don't even know where the truth ends and the faking begins…
Only a woman could write that and mean it. It just isn't true.

Men know exactly what's going on, and even though some of them live false lives for so long that they lose track of what their true self truly is, they are completely aware of that fact that they are being false.

It's a strictly intentional and completely conscious act. I've been breaking the male code of secrecy about this since I was seven or eight, and paying the price. I don't care; it's too screwed up to live with, and there's far too many other problems built into the human male heritage to waste time with this stuff.

I know it's no consolation, but presenting a false self requires actually being that self, not just pretending. We pretend that these things don't happen to women, but when men do them there's nothing pretend about it.

And that drains a guy's soul faster and more permanently than anything that happens to a woman when he does it. The guys that live by this stuff are hollow by the time they're twenty, and completely empty by the time they're thirty.

I really don't know if they're redeemable after that. And I'm not sure I really care.
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  #29  
Old 03-23-05, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RhapsodyInBlue
The "author" is a very well known narcissist, and someone who's words I would be very leary of. I believe it would take more than one or two dates to know this much about a person, and Vankin [the author] is smart enough to know this.

I am not saying there are no good points here, there are, but to make it a forum focal post is a narcissits dream. Vankin would love it!

-Viktoria
I admit to being rather fascinated by some of the writing of Sam Vankin. He uses hyperbole, his writing is all-over-the-place disorganized at times, but he gives us a rare look inside the mind of a narcissicist. He reveals who he is when he is seeking concealment and he thinks he is concealing who he is when he pretends to reveal.

But this instability of truth, does not mean that there aren't some valuable nuggets among the sifted sand.

I have know narcissists who are dangerous to others. I lived with one, my ex, who was a narcissistic sociopath. I have known narcissistic-type people who are really only dangerous to themselves. One is very dear to my heart.

I have the greatest respect for your opinion Viktoria, but I think that the essesnce of the link and text Ian posted is accurately to describes one type of guy to avoid. If he does not rape, pillage, or murder, he will be abusive in other -- sometimes devastatingly -- cunning ways.
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Old 03-23-05, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itschaotic
Sounds like a book my daughter's and I should have the benefit of. Thanks.
Ian, I remembered the author's name. He is Gavin de Becker. His book was on the NYT bestseller list for a while.

Last edited by namazu; 11-28-17 at 06:19 AM.. Reason: Removed broken link to commercial website.
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