ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community  

Go Back   ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community > ADULTS AND ADD/ADHD > Relationships & Social Issues
Register Blogs FAQ Chat Members List Calendar Donate Gallery Arcade Mark Forums Read

Relationships & Social Issues This forum is for adults with AD/HD to discuss how AD/HD affects personal relationships.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 03-26-05, 06:37 PM
Coral Rhedd Coral Rhedd is offline
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 614
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 9 Posts
Coral Rhedd is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
Yelling at someone is not rape. But if a man screams at his wife as part of a pattern of behavior that seeks to force her to change her internal model of her self, the template of primitive behavior all of us are born with, then that is rape.
No it is not. And to say that it is, trivializes rape itself.

Quote:
The problem is one of defining why rape is so much more devastating to the victim than other crimes, like simple assault.
Now, this is an interesting point. I would like it if you would elaborate.

Quote:
If you look around a bit at what the people working on this are talking about in the last few years, you'll see a completely different definition evolving, one that avoids the problems that arise when we were simply saying that rape isn't about sex.
Could you give me the names of some researchers/scholars looking into this so that I may look into it a little more.

Quote:
The problem is not that primitive behaviors have managed to select for so long, but what has selected to allow them to continue to flourish to this day.
You have referred to these behaviors as mating strategies, but from an evolutionary standpoint, don't you mean reproductive stategies. After all, if the strategies were not useful to the continuations of humans as a species, would they not have died out.

Just how do you feel that rape was more useful in producing children than other strategies.

Quote:
As we humans have gained a modicum of free will and self-determination, the primitive behaviors that contradict those principles have managed to find ways to hide.
I am interested in your choice of the word "modicum" here. Does this mean that you don't believe rapists can usually control their behavior?

Quote:
The problem has been one of escaping the process somehow. Whatever selected to allow the development of our current ideas about our selves and our personal freedoms took the same route as the mechanisms that hide the ugliness of the primitive strategy. We couldn't get away from them.

Now we're at a turning point, because the things that are happening to us that create AD/HD in the population are not like the process that would select yet another more sophisticated disguise for the primitive strategy.
Could you please explicitly connect this mating strategy to ADD/ADHD behavior? You seem to hint about this quite a bit. I see no reason why you should not be more specific.

Quote:
The understanding of the function of the brain needed to even address the question intelligently is exactly the same as it is for AD/HD, and the current state of the art is just beginning to see the problem, not even close to getting an understanding of it.

Our research popped out a funny answer to this, essentially mooting the whole nature-nurture question. Most of what you consider to be characteristics that make you and those around you identifiably human are not passed through the genes themselves.

Instead, there is an incredibly precise external mechanism that (in part) we recognize as the enculturation and socialization process, but extends to much more. This mechanism is only beginning to be recognized, although we saw research done at the University of Pittsburgh in the Sixties that addressed some of it.
What research at the U of Pitt? Could you specify and tell me who the researchers were?

Are you saying that there is an external mechanism that, combined with the primitive mating stategy, triggers rape? What is that external mechanism?
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 03-26-05, 07:07 PM
Coral Rhedd Coral Rhedd is offline
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 614
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 9 Posts
Coral Rhedd is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile

The correct view of the underlying mechanisms allows you to explain how those kids at that day care center could have been right about being abused, and told a completely bogus story about what happened.
Which specific case are you referring to. There have been several of these.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 04-28-05, 02:46 PM
Stabile's Avatar
Stabile Stabile is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,729
Thanks: 2
Thanked 71 Times in 53 Posts
Stabile has a spectacular aura aboutStabile has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coral Rhedd
Quote:
Yelling at someone is not rape. But if a man screams at his wife as part of a pattern of behavior that seeks to force her to change her internal model of her self, the template of primitive behavior all of us are born with, then that is rape.
No it is not. And to say that it is, trivializes rape itself.
Oh, yes it is. That's the essence of rape, to force another (usually female) person to change their self model – literally to make themselves into a separate, different person.

If that conjures up visions of things like separate experiences with separate sets of memories, then you're starting to get the point.

What part of that doesn't anyone understand? Does everybody really believe that when rape victims recant their accusations and seem unsure of themselves and their memories of what happened, they're just ditzy? Or stupid, or scared, or whatever?

That's the kind of perception that trivializes rape, not what we're saying. If Kay and I had our way, a victim being uncertain about what happened would be considered prima facia evidence that a rape had indeed occured.

When a woman finds herself unable to explain how she got into an unusual and uncharacteristic situation, something isn't right, and it's not likely her doing. Duh!

But this doesn't mean that a woman can't be completely aware of the inconsistency within herself, and completely in control of herself as well. The best solutions seek to maintain that uncertainty, because it signals the separation of the forced self and associated experiences from the true self and a person's real life.

There's nothing trivial in that at all. It's incredibly complicated, but not unfathomable - anyone here is able to understand it all with a little patience.

It's a constant frustration to us that obviously intelligent people continue to bang their heads against the same old wall. The old simple ways of understanding these issues have never worked, and never will.

The reasons for that have selected over hundreds of thousands of years. The deck is stacked against us, in every way, as long as we refuse to stop and look at the cards we've been dealt. Rape is built in, at every level.

Male or female, it's a long hard task to weed every little bit of it out.

* * * * * * *

A decent place to get a feel for the beginnings of the current feminist philosophical debate on this particular subject is Ann Cahill's Rethinking Rape. She doesn't get a lot of the finer points right in this book, but it's an early work and she was on the right track. And she's looking right into the 'black holes' without flinching.

Ann Cahill is an Associate Professor of Philosophy at Elon University in North Carolina.

* * * * * * *

Mating strategies and reproductive strategies are totally different representations of a common underlying mechanism. When you talk of reproductive strategies, you're speaking in terms of the species itself, things that look like 'behavior' of the population as a whole.

This is only a useful tool for speaking logically about certain aspects of selection and the statistical characteristics of the system we’re observing. There is no intent, nor any real sense to the 'behavior' of a species, nor any behavior either, in the strict sense.

When we talk about mating strategies, we're talking about the bundle of real behaviors (drives, impulses, roles and goals) that underlie our individual decisions with regard to finding someone to pair up with in order to carry out the chimerical 'purpose' of the species, and get our DNA into play in the next generation.

On the species level, there isn't any sense; also no caring, no compassion, no benevolence, no love. There isn't any pain, either, in the sense that you would expect to see an emotional response to it; there isn't any intellect, no purpose, and no emotion.

For purpose, you have to look lower, in the individual, or perhaps higher. And that lack is reflected in the selection process, so it's guaranteed that every one of us is a walking bundle of convenient mechanisms that have only one redeeming virtue, reproductive success. And rape is obviously a part of the package.

This does not in any way demean the intrinsic worth of a person; in our minds, it sets that part of each of us free, by cleanly separating it from the venal nature of our origins.

* * * * * * *

As far as the utility of rape is concerned, it helps ensure genetic diversity. The modern strategy tends to concentrate high status genes to the detriment of lower status genes. We discussed this earlier.

We're reasonably certain (for complex reasons) that the utility of this kind of genetic diversity is no longer of any importance to the species. There's no remaining value to rape on any level, and it's time to dispose of it.

* * * * * * *

All of us are, to an extent, failing to control our own behavior in certain important ways.

From the conventional view, a woman is unable to control her behavior, making her the natural victim. But in the same context, a rapist is able to control his behavior, and pretending that the situation is different than this is pure deceit.

That's the conventional view, and it's flawed. But the rap against men that do these things remains. On a level we would all recognize, they know what they're doing.

* * * * * * *

A 'modicum of free will' refers to the fact that our internal representations of reality, the complex model that we all experience as real, are illusory. A great deal of what we see and understand about our selves and our actions is confused by the fact that most of us believe that our conscious experiences are real.

They're not, and here's the problem: we all make choices in the staging of our internal reality play, and if we believe the play is reality, we can't take full conscious control of the process.

There is a real external reality, and we can learn to control our internal representation of it. It's a bit weird to talk about, but we're all doing it right now, and it feels perfectly natural to us when we do it.

The trick is to stop copping out and take control of it.

It's language that's the main barrier right now, and language is being used in the battle to maintain the status quo. But we will prevail; it's as inevitable as the rise of modern humans was a hundred thousand years or so ago.

* * * * * * *

As far as how this all relates to AD/HD, we've been outspoken and specific about that since we joined the forums. Here's the recap: AD/HD is almost certainly related to very simple changes in the way that we use our brains.

The complexity of the result is a direct challenge to our common understanding of everything from these issues (nominally about how we select a life partner) to our ideas about reality itself.

We ADDers are able to 'pop up' above the mess and get a perspective that allows us to fix problems that have never before been fixable. Learning to use that faculty to leave the rapacious bits out of out self model when we build it is what we’re talking about here, in this discussion.

It's the only thing that's going to work, because doing that is the only way to gain the perspective that allows you to recognize people that have failed to do it, for whatever reason. Those are the dangerous ones, whether or not they're narcissists.

* * * * * * *

The research done at Pitt produced the first documented evidence that people are 'synchronized' to a far better degree than is possible if we rely on direct, moment-to-moment conscious observation of others.

Research subjects in simulated waiting room scenarios were observed using high speed film, and the film analyzed by an innovative new single frame projection system.

Without any overt interactions, subjects who had never met formed themselves into clusters that demonstrated synchronized physical activity such as fidgeting or shifting one leg over the other. The synchronization was precise within a few thousandths of a second or less.

The brain cannot process information in real time on that scale. The only possible explanation is that the subjects had detailed internal representations of the external situation that were common and precisely synchronous to an astonishing degree.

The precision necessary makes it impossible that these strangers constructed the common internal representation during the few minutes of the experiment. Everybody walked in with precisely the same internal model of the situation intact, ready to be put to use.

The question is, what is that use? The first answer is everything we’ve been talking about. There's more, but that's where it all started. It's mating behavior, and it's everywhere, all the time.

Most often, it doesn't lead anywhere; it can be just a kind of exercise, but one that can be inherently demeaning to women and thus taxing nonetheless.

But sometimes it's the beginning of a long and joyful relationship, and sometimes, it's precursor to rape. What we do with it is still an individual question. We aren't going to be able to answer it intelligently until we learn to see the process at work.

And that is, in part, what this thread and others like it are all about.

Thank you, Ian.

* * * * * * *

This is complicated stuff, but it's mainly because there are often two unrelated influences contributing to a particular detail. These influences are wide ranging, at least one associated in some way with every aspect of the human experience.

Considering the subject, that can hardly be a surprise.

We have necessarily left most of the details we've touched on here less than fully described, and that's intentional. We talk too much as is. But we are happy to go into greater depth on any part of it; if we felt otherwise, our work would have been for naught.

Any serious questions should be directed to us in a PM, or put in another thread. We've beaten this one to death, I think.

--Tom and Kay
__________________
Peace. --TR =+= =+=

"There is no normal life, Wyatt.
There's just life. Get on with it."
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #49  
Old 05-04-05, 10:28 PM
ashley ashley is offline
Member
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sparks, NV
Posts: 43
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
ashley is on a distinguished road
Thank you for the intelligent debate!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
Oh, yes it is. That's the essence of rape, to force another (usually female) person to change their self model – literally to make themselves into a separate, different person.
I have to admit I didn't have the attention span to read this entire posting~this is an ADD site ~ but as for this quote, I'd like to believe the definition Nevada holds on rape is the most adequate: Penetrating any person or animal against their will, or when they are unable to make responsible decisions (such as being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, mental disability, or minors).

Forcing someone to do anything other than this against their will is wrong and can constitute abuse, harassment, or battery (to name a few), but, by definition, is not rape.
Fuzzing the lines is unsafe and undoes the hard work of dedicated people.

As for the article first posted: I've seen some of those behaviors on first or second dates before, and cut the dates short. Rude, agressive, and controlling people don't deserve a second of my time. Or yours.
Men and women (my brothers and sister included) seem to be under the misconception that dates deserve extra chances, and put up with these unacceptable behaviors while they escalate. As a result, articles like this one are needed.

"Honey, dump the loser!"
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 05-05-05, 05:49 PM
Stabile's Avatar
Stabile Stabile is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,729
Thanks: 2
Thanked 71 Times in 53 Posts
Stabile has a spectacular aura aboutStabile has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashley
I have to admit I didn't have the attention span to read this entire posting~this is an ADD site
Yup, this is complicated stuff. But it's AD/HD that allows us to discuss it this way at all, if our theoretical understanding of the human mind is correct. And doesn't it seem worth the effort, given the subject?


Quote:
~ but as for this quote, I'd like to believe the definition Nevada holds on rape is the most adequate: Penetrating any person or animal against their will, or when they are unable to make responsible decisions (such as being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, mental disability, or minors).
That's a legal definition, and already way out of the context we're interested in here. Even the legal community agrees legal definitions of complex behavior like rape are necessarily restricted and must be considered inherently out of step with the broader context of acceptable social behavior.

Few people find this kind of simplified formal definition satisfying for long; it quickly breaks down when used to judge many ordinary situations. The usual opening point of contention is the 'against their will' part, and everything goes downhill from there.

The principle attraction seems to be the simplicity itself, and in part what we’re interested in is why that should be so.


Quote:
Forcing someone to do anything other than this against their will is wrong and can constitute abuse, harassment, or battery (to name a few), but, by definition, is not rape.
Yup, if you want to enforce the Nevada legal definition. But virtually nobody thinks that's a particularly good idea in the context of trying to actually understand human behavior.


Quote:
Fuzzing the lines is unsafe and undoes the hard work of dedicated people...
I don't know who you mean. The people that made the law don't think it's particularly accurate; they needed a definition that could be argued in court, not one that serves to provide understanding.

People like Ann Cahill (read a little more of the post) are very dedicated, well respected, and trying to find the answer to a question that is inherently fuzzy already. Legal definitions are a side issue.

We're dedicated, too, and very serious. We found a way to de-fuzzify the issue, and we’re trying to explain it. So far our models work for us and the few people that have taken the time to understand them. They also seem to be 100% accurate in hindsight, unraveling what happened in any particular case.

Getting them into public view will allow them to work before the fact, which is the subject of the thread.


Quote:
As for the article first posted: I've seen some of those behaviors on first or second dates before, and cut the dates short. Rude, agressive, and controlling people don't deserve a second of my time. Or yours.
That's fine, but the vast majority of rapes occur despite the best intentions of the victim to apply this sort of personal principle.

The interesting question is understanding how that can be true while continuing to acknowledge and honor the independent intellect and free will of the victim. That's the problem, the thing that makes it complicated.


Quote:
Men and women (my brothers and sister included) seem to be under the misconception that dates deserve extra chances, and put up with these unacceptable behaviors while they escalate.
Exactly. That's it, right there.

I guarantee you Kay or I could casually talk with your sister or brothers and hear them say something equivalent to your statement of principle in just a few minutes. Who doesn't believe in their heart in the sanctity of the individual?

The problem is understanding why people that demonstrably know the dangers of a situation sometimes abruptly apply a completely different set of standards, and wind up in trouble.


Quote:
As a result, articles like this one are needed.
Discussions like this are needed. Articles like this have been around since Kay and I were in college. They're good for stimulating a process of self discovery, and thanks for that, Ian.

But simply applying the principles in the article directly plays into the hands of men that would take advantage of women. The reason is that no person can be trusted (or can trust themselves) to always apply the principles when they're needed.

That's the truth of rape, and complicated as the mechanisms are, what keeps it happening is only the lack of open recognition of the problem.

We simply are not allowing ourselves to be aware of the fact that it's possible for our own self-model to become compromised.

The purpose of forcing a woman to compromise her self model, to essentially form an alternate version of herself, is to create a person that doesn't apply the principles in the article.

That's the point, duh! It's a safety mechanism for the rapist, and it's why we have a complex definition of rape, specifically indicting that forced change to the self model.

It's also why we consider rape to be pandemic. We believe that far more than 90% of rapes go unreported, and we’re not alone in that opinion. A significant percentage go unrecognized, although the effects on a persons life are easy to spot once you understand the mechanisms.

The only technique that works reliably is learning to recognize that process and understanding it. Once you can see it at work, it literally loses all of its power.

It's not an easy view of reality at first; like Kay says, it's everywhere. But it’s accurate, and the behavior itself eventually starts to seem quaint, and silly, and very desperate.

I don't think anyone is ever going to get that perspective from an article about narcissism. But it popped right out in the discussion, didn't it? So we'll keep on bangin' the drum…


--Tom and Kay
__________________
Peace. --TR =+= =+=

"There is no normal life, Wyatt.
There's just life. Get on with it."
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 05-05-05, 06:13 PM
Ian's Avatar
Ian Ian is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 4,698
Blog Entries: 6
Thanks: 30
Thanked 298 Times in 107 Posts
Ian has disabled reputation
I'm sure there is music in that drum. I can hear if in the quiet moments.
__________________
A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?

Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-21-06, 11:26 PM
neroballerino neroballerino is offline
Newbie
 

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
neroballerino is on a distinguished road
Hey thanks for the insight! I'll keep all these things in mind!
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 04-10-06, 10:18 PM
raspberryrum30 raspberryrum30 is offline
Member
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 95
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
raspberryrum30 will become famous soon enough
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse7.html

I mailed this around pretty heavily today. I thought it was great.

===============

Is there anything you can do to avoid abusers and narcissists to start with? Are there any warning signs, any identifying marks, rules of thumb to shield you from the harrowing and traumatic experience of an abusive relationship?

Imagine a first or second date. You can already tell if he is a would-be abuser. Here's how:

Perhaps the first telltale sign is the abuser's alloplastic defenses – his tendency to blame every mistake of his, every failure, or mishap on others, or on the world at large. Be tuned: does he assume personal responsibility? Does he admit his faults and miscalculations? Or does he keep blaming you, the cab driver, the waiter, the weather, the government, or fortune for his predicament?

Is he hypersensitive, picks up fights, feels constantly slighted, injured, and insulted? Does he rant incessantly? Does he treat animals and children impatiently or cruelly and does he express negative and aggressive emotions towards the weak, the poor, the needy, the sentimental, and the disabled? Does he confess to having a history of battering or violent offenses or behavior? Is his language vile and infused with expletives, threats, and hostility?

Next thing: is he too eager? Does he push you to marry him having dated you only twice? Is he planning on having children on your first date? Does he immediately cast you in the role of the love of his life? Is he pressing you for exclusivity, instant intimacy, almost rapes you and acts jealous when you as much as cast a glance at another male? Does he inform you that, once you get hitched, you should abandon your studies or resign your job (forgo your personal autonomy)?

Does he respect your boundaries and privacy? Does he ignore your wishes (for instance, by choosing from the menu or selecting a movie without as much as consulting you)? Does he disrespect your boundaries and treats you as an object or an instrument of gratification (materializes on your doorstep unexpectedly or calls you often prior to your date)? Does he go through your personal belongings while waiting for you to get ready?

Does he control the situation and you compulsively? Does he insist to ride in his car, holds on to the car keys, the money, the theater tickets, and even your bag? Does he disapprove if you are away for too long (for instance when you go to the powder room)? Does he interrogate you when you return ("have you seen anyone interesting") – or make lewd "jokes" and remarks? Does he hint that, in future, you would need his permission to do things – even as innocuous as meeting a friend or visiting with your family?

Does he act in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes you often? Does he emphasize your minutest faults (devalues you) even as he exaggerates your talents, traits, and skills (idealizes you)? Is he wildly unrealistic in his expectations from you, from himself, from the budding relationship, and from life in general?

Does he tell you constantly that you "make him feel" good? Don't be impressed. Next thing, he may tell you that you "make" him feel bad, or that you make him feel violent, or that you "provoke" him. "Look what you made me do!" is an abuser's ubiquitous catchphrase.

Does he find sadistic sex exciting? Does he have fantasies of rape or pedophilia? Is he too forceful with you in and out of the sexual intercourse? Does he like hurting you physically or finds it amusing? Does he abuse you verbally – does he curse you, demeans you, calls you ugly or inappropriately diminutive names, or persistently criticizes you? Does he then switch to being saccharine and "loving", apologizes profusely and buys you gifts?

If you have answered "yes" to any of the above – stay away! He is an abuser.

Then there is the abuser's body language. It comprises an unequivocal series of subtle – but discernible – warning signs. Pay attention to the way your date comports himself – and save yourself a lot of trouble!



This is the subject of the next article.










first i am going to forward this to a bunch of people then i am going to make a copy of it and put it on my wall!!!!!!!!!!! thanks man
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 04-10-06, 11:01 PM
Ian's Avatar
Ian Ian is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 4,698
Blog Entries: 6
Thanks: 30
Thanked 298 Times in 107 Posts
Ian has disabled reputation
Life is short, play hard. This is not a dress rehearsal!
__________________
A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?

Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 05-03-06, 11:51 AM
E-boy's Avatar
E-boy E-boy is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 1,756
Thanks: 0
Thanked 44 Times in 32 Posts
E-boy has disabled reputation
Good advice on the whole. One of the very best ways to avoid an abuser though, in particular if you have a history of abusive relationships to include your upbringing, is to VERY carefully examine what it is you find attractive in a potential mate. Many folks don't even really think about this and it's one of the prime reasons that it's so common for abused individuals to end up in a relatively continuous string of abusive relationships.

People have a natural, and quite unconscious tendency to gravitate to their comfort zone. They will look for traits in others that create the relationship dynamics they were raised in and comfortable with (regardless of whether they are abusive or not).

Pattern abusers are similarly shackled by tendencies and seek out people they can successfully isolate and dominate. The best advice is to take a VERY careful look at the things that draw you to a potential suitor and ask yourself what it is that makes that attractive. It may very well be that the very criteria you use are destructive to your own interests.

In short the best way to avoid an abuser is to ensure you aren't a ready made victim.

One of the reasons I phrase it in quite this way is simple. There are behavioral patterns and even "vibes" that an abusive unhealthy person puts out, but not all abusers follow the pattern anymore than any other categorization is 100% accurate regarding human behavior. One thing that is for sure is that abusers consolidate their power over time. Simply being a non-victim prevents them from doing this because you refuse to abdicate your own idependence to them. Late in a relationship doing that can result in serious injury or death as an abuser in that stage will do very nearly anything to enforce his power and control over the victim. They are in the most danger when they attempt to leave an abusive relationship. Modifying your own behavior and the manner in which you deal with other people can prevent anyone from ever having that power over you in the first place.

It involves being strong, assertive, and having a healthy self image. It involves being willing to put the kybosh on any behavior that even hints at a controlling nature. To include ending a relationship if necessary.

One of the reasons individuals who have never experienced abuse can't understand why a victim simply won't leave is that their self image and personalities would never make them good victim material in the first place. They literally can't put themselves in a victim's shoes and make sense of it.

Some people are simply better targets to be chosen as victims. As with any other violent crime one of the best approaches to dealing with it is avoiding allowing yourself to become a victim in the first place.

For those who are victims, we need to extend understanding, safety, and the means to not only get out of the abusive situation and be protected, but counseling, and support to help them to get back on their feet, improve their self esteem, and avoid ever allowing themselves to be victims again.

As for the offenders, who often claim they are sick and need help? I don't deny they need help, but A) they aren't psychotic, they know the difference between right and wrong, and B) the recidivism rate is so high they literally don't know if treatment has any effect at all. I say put their butts in jail and let them get help there.
__________________
"I drank what?" ~Socrates as quoted by Val Kilmer in the movie "Real Genius"
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to E-boy For This Useful Post:
Crazygirl79 (08-08-13), Ravenstar (02-27-12)
  #56  
Old 05-03-06, 12:03 PM
chameleon's Avatar
chameleon chameleon is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: US
Posts: 2,304
Thanks: 0
Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts
chameleon has disabled reputation
Your comment makes me wonder about something -

Only 2 of my relationships that I can think of right now weren't abusive, and one was based on lies (he was told me he wasn't married, and pretended to be a different type of man than he really was). Those 2 relationships were the only ones that didn't go long term and the only ones that hurt my heart when they ended (the liar relationship hurt because I missed the man that I knew he wasn't, but had I thought he was, if that makes any sense).
That leads me to wonder if I'm subconsciously ruining healthy relationships, yet letting unhealthy ones flourish.
That's a pretty scary thought. And if it's true I'll be furious at myself for ruining my own chance at happiness.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 05-03-06, 12:21 PM
Ian's Avatar
Ian Ian is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 4,698
Blog Entries: 6
Thanks: 30
Thanked 298 Times in 107 Posts
Ian has disabled reputation
long time

It's wonderful to here your voice again E-boy! Thanks for your contribution here. I think it's really important to try and stay aware of what we do out of habit or like you suggest, seeking the comfort zone.

chameleon your avatar is wonderful.
Ian
__________________
A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?

Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 05-03-06, 12:25 PM
E-boy's Avatar
E-boy E-boy is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 1,756
Thanks: 0
Thanked 44 Times in 32 Posts
E-boy has disabled reputation
No reason to be angry at a behavior based on long ingrained habbits Cham. Better to examine why you make your choices to find out if you indeed do have those sorts of habbits and then take appropriate action to change how you do business.

I don't see how a man lying to you the way he did could in anyway be construed as you sabotaging a relationship. That gentleman (I'm being sarcastic here), took advantage of your vulnerability every bit as much as a physically abusive person would have.

Being in a position of having self esteem issues and psychological baggage from a long history of abuse is not YOUR fault or, for that matter, any other victims fault. It is however something only you can fix with appropriate support and assistance. So it's nothing to get angry at yourself over. Be angry at those who victimized you. Be angry at those who even now do it to others. Use that anger to help take the steps you need to, to make yourself healthier in your outlook and feelings. When you at last come to a place when you truly like yourself, and have true independence, then you need only examine why you made your bad choices, see how little sense they make in light of your new found respect for yourself and be a bit pickier with any future relationship candidates. One nice thing that comes with independence and self respect is patience, and not needing to be with someone else to feel "safe" or "meaningful" as a person. Only then can you really be in a mutual relationship, and spot individuals who you really don't want to be in any kind of relationship with easily, and act accordingly. You don't need them. All they do is hurt you. They need you to feel in control, but you need nothing from them that they will ever actually give you. More importantly you can get the things you crave so much from yourself if you give it half a chance.
__________________
"I drank what?" ~Socrates as quoted by Val Kilmer in the movie "Real Genius"
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 05-03-06, 12:25 PM
E-boy's Avatar
E-boy E-boy is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 1,756
Thanks: 0
Thanked 44 Times in 32 Posts
E-boy has disabled reputation
Thanks Ian! :-) The feeling is quite mutual.
__________________
"I drank what?" ~Socrates as quoted by Val Kilmer in the movie "Real Genius"
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 05-03-06, 12:40 PM
chameleon's Avatar
chameleon chameleon is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: US
Posts: 2,304
Thanks: 0
Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts
chameleon has disabled reputation
Very insightful words for me.
Recently, I've gone from feeling very badly about myself again, to seeing the pattern underneath the chaos - for the first time in my life. And only because of the comments of the people on this forum. This place has a bigger impact on my psyche than therapy!
A wall is slowly being constructed to keep abusive words from getting straight through to my ego.
I need to make my "people circle" bigger so I get more positive input on my personality. I'm such a hermit.
But with more positive input, I can see the I-Want-To-Control-You-So-I-Make-You-Feel-Small or the I'm-A-Jerk-Welcome-To-Hell comments for the crap they are, and throw the negative comments in the garbage without even absorbing them.

I hope there are other abused women listening here...


Thanks Ian! I loved the animation when I saw it, and even went to the trouble of finding an online program to shrink animations so I could use it here. It's so happy!
I'm so transparent here, because my avatars change with my mood
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to chameleon For This Useful Post:
Icantbraintoday (09-04-12)
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Further Discussion split off from "How To Spot An Abuser - For Men" StanleyW Relationships & Social Issues 68 11-29-17 04:56 PM
Your Birth Date clawless Chit-Chat 22 01-10-10 07:41 PM
A memorable first date !!! Garry Chit-Chat 1 11-06-05 04:21 PM
Best Date??? joanrdtobe Relationships & Social Issues 4 06-02-03 02:27 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 2003 - 2015 ADD Forums