ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community  

Go Back   ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community > CO-EXISTING CONDITIONS > Personality Disorders
Register Blogs FAQ Chat Members List Calendar Donate Gallery Arcade Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-13-16, 06:18 PM
midnightstar's Avatar
midnightstar midnightstar is offline
Purriendly feline moderator
 

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 18,069
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 16,993
Thanked 21,440 Times in 12,635 Posts
midnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond repute
Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

Or is it a nonsense label the professionals stick on you just for something to say you have "wrong" with you and say there's no cure so bye bye we can't do anything for you with that? (they gave me an OCPD diagnosis as one of the things I apparently have wrong with me and they said when they diagnosed me there's no cure and pretty much left me to get on with it)
__________________
Beauty (12th August 2007 - 3rd November 2008 )
Dylan (4th November 2008 - 23rd March 2012)
Tom (29th August 2014 - 17th October 2014)
Ebony (1st January 2014 - 2nd March 2018)
Tigger (31st October 2014 - current)
"No human should ever hurt an animal" Jessie, Animal Farm

Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to midnightstar For This Useful Post:
Fuzzy12 (07-13-16), Gilthranon (07-14-16), namazu (07-13-16), Unmanagable (07-15-16)
  #2  
Old 07-13-16, 06:24 PM
Fortune's Avatar
Fortune Fortune is online now
I eat shades of red.
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Candy Kingdom, Land of Ooo
Posts: 12,343
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 11,900
Thanked 22,097 Times in 9,342 Posts
Fortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

There are a lot of problems with personality disorders as a category. The DSM-5 changed things in the US so they're axis-1 disorders instead of axis-2, which is a good change, although I am not sure what that will mean - if anything - for people diagnosed with PDs.

Several of the PD diagnoses are valid, some are questionable, and the idea that they're untreatable is probably false. BPD, for example, is quite treatable. OCPD can be treated with cognitive behavioral therapy, medication, and relaxation training.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Fortune For This Useful Post:
Fuzzy12 (07-13-16), Lunacie (07-13-16), midnightstar (07-13-16), namazu (07-13-16)
  #3  
Old 07-13-16, 06:34 PM
midnightstar's Avatar
midnightstar midnightstar is offline
Purriendly feline moderator
 

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 18,069
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 16,993
Thanked 21,440 Times in 12,635 Posts
midnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

So it's just in the UK that they're all like "it's untreatable off you go blah blah"? Mental health help in the UK is utter crap.
__________________
Beauty (12th August 2007 - 3rd November 2008 )
Dylan (4th November 2008 - 23rd March 2012)
Tom (29th August 2014 - 17th October 2014)
Ebony (1st January 2014 - 2nd March 2018)
Tigger (31st October 2014 - current)
"No human should ever hurt an animal" Jessie, Animal Farm

Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to midnightstar For This Useful Post:
Fuzzy12 (07-13-16), Lunacie (07-13-16), namazu (07-13-16)
Sponsored Links
  #4  
Old 07-13-16, 06:38 PM
Fortune's Avatar
Fortune Fortune is online now
I eat shades of red.
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Candy Kingdom, Land of Ooo
Posts: 12,343
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 11,900
Thanked 22,097 Times in 9,342 Posts
Fortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightstar View Post
So it's just in the UK that they're all like "it's untreatable off you go blah blah"? Mental health help in the UK is utter crap.
It's not just in the UK, no. There are professionals who do treat it and professionals who act like it's not treatable at all, but that's old dogma.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Fortune For This Useful Post:
Lunacie (07-13-16), midnightstar (07-13-16), namazu (07-13-16)
  #5  
Old 07-13-16, 06:41 PM
midnightstar's Avatar
midnightstar midnightstar is offline
Purriendly feline moderator
 

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 18,069
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 16,993
Thanked 21,440 Times in 12,635 Posts
midnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond reputemidnightstar has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortune View Post
It's not just in the UK, no. There are professionals who do treat it and professionals who act like it's not treatable at all, but that's old dogma.
So the professionals here and both places I used to live are talking out of their backsides

Fortune
__________________
Beauty (12th August 2007 - 3rd November 2008 )
Dylan (4th November 2008 - 23rd March 2012)
Tom (29th August 2014 - 17th October 2014)
Ebony (1st January 2014 - 2nd March 2018)
Tigger (31st October 2014 - current)
"No human should ever hurt an animal" Jessie, Animal Farm

Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to midnightstar For This Useful Post:
namazu (07-13-16)
  #6  
Old 07-13-16, 06:45 PM
Fuzzy12's Avatar
Fuzzy12 Fuzzy12 is online now
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 19,377
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 31,653
Thanked 29,062 Times in 13,421 Posts
Fuzzy12 has a reputation beyond reputeFuzzy12 has a reputation beyond reputeFuzzy12 has a reputation beyond reputeFuzzy12 has a reputation beyond reputeFuzzy12 has a reputation beyond reputeFuzzy12 has a reputation beyond reputeFuzzy12 has a reputation beyond reputeFuzzy12 has a reputation beyond reputeFuzzy12 has a reputation beyond reputeFuzzy12 has a reputation beyond reputeFuzzy12 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightstar View Post
So it's just in the UK that they're all like "it's untreatable off you go blah blah"? Mental health help in the UK is utter crap.
Funnily enough I think if you look up personality disorders on the nhs websites it does list ways of treating them through therapy like dbt or meds like anti depressants.


Uggh...the ignorance of some professionals makes me just so angry. I mean they should know at least as much as the nhs Web pages shouldn't they? ??

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Persona...Treatment.aspx

( not sure if they specifically mention ocpd though)
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Fuzzy12 For This Useful Post:
Fortune (07-13-16), midnightstar (07-14-16), namazu (07-13-16)
  #7  
Old 07-13-16, 08:57 PM
Little Missy's Avatar
Little Missy Little Missy is online now
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: BIG, Wonderful, Wyoming USA
Posts: 15,053
Thanks: 22,305
Thanked 20,877 Times in 11,119 Posts
Little Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightstar View Post
So it's just in the UK that they're all like "it's untreatable off you go blah blah"? Mental health help in the UK is utter crap.
Maybe if you pursued it a bit more aggressively, some type of help could be offered to you. I don't really know, but if you continue making appointments and keep on about your struggles possibly?
__________________
The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you are uncool ~ Lester Bangs

And in the end, the love you take; is equal to the love you make...Beatles Abbey Road 1969
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Little Missy For This Useful Post:
Lunacie (07-13-16), midnightstar (07-14-16), namazu (07-15-16)
  #8  
Old 07-15-16, 07:22 AM
Donny997 Donny997 is offline
ADDvanced Member
 

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 212
Thanks: 92
Thanked 213 Times in 124 Posts
Donny997 is a glorious beacon of lightDonny997 is a glorious beacon of lightDonny997 is a glorious beacon of lightDonny997 is a glorious beacon of lightDonny997 is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightstar View Post
So it's just in the UK that they're all like "it's untreatable off you go blah blah"? Mental health help in the UK is utter crap.
Sure sounds like it. But there's some truth to it as personality in general is so hard to change. I think you can never totally change your personality, you are who you are. But you can modify it and learn to integrate other opposing traits to balance your personality. And in the case of personality disorder, you can learn to bring your personality style to the normal level of adjustment, i.e. there are many "normal" OCDPs. These things are tremendously hard work, though, and it probably requires more than a lifetime to fully change and undo the effects of personality disorder, but it doesn't mean people can't move in the direction of health.
__________________
Diagnoses: ADHD-PI, social anxiety, depression.

Current medications: Adderall 30 mg XR, Wellbutrin 300 mg XL, Lexapro 10 mg
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Donny997 For This Useful Post:
midnightstar (07-15-16), namazu (07-15-16)
  #9  
Old 07-13-16, 06:45 PM
Fortune's Avatar
Fortune Fortune is online now
I eat shades of red.
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Candy Kingdom, Land of Ooo
Posts: 12,343
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 11,900
Thanked 22,097 Times in 9,342 Posts
Fortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

Basically.

If you can find someone who does CBT they can probably help you with your symptoms. If they treat your symptoms instead of your diagnosis, that is.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Fortune For This Useful Post:
midnightstar (07-14-16), namazu (07-13-16)
  #10  
Old 07-13-16, 06:45 PM
Fortune's Avatar
Fortune Fortune is online now
I eat shades of red.
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Candy Kingdom, Land of Ooo
Posts: 12,343
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 11,900
Thanked 22,097 Times in 9,342 Posts
Fortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

If they focus on your diagnosis they might just be all "No treatment works" which is not helpful.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Fortune For This Useful Post:
midnightstar (07-14-16), namazu (07-13-16)
  #11  
Old 07-15-16, 02:19 PM
Fortune's Avatar
Fortune Fortune is online now
I eat shades of red.
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Candy Kingdom, Land of Ooo
Posts: 12,343
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 11,900
Thanked 22,097 Times in 9,342 Posts
Fortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

That's part of the problem - the idea that personality disorders are so difficult to treat - which is not true, at least not for all of them. OCPD is fairly treatable.

Last edited by Fortune; 07-15-16 at 02:47 PM..
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Fortune For This Useful Post:
aeon (07-16-16), midnightstar (07-15-16), namazu (07-15-16)
  #12  
Old 07-15-16, 03:37 PM
Fortune's Avatar
Fortune Fortune is online now
I eat shades of red.
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Candy Kingdom, Land of Ooo
Posts: 12,343
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 11,900
Thanked 22,097 Times in 9,342 Posts
Fortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond reputeFortune has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

I mean there's a reason personality disorders are no longer axis 2.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Fortune For This Useful Post:
aeon (07-16-16), midnightstar (07-15-16), namazu (07-15-16)
  #13  
Old 07-15-16, 03:45 PM
Unmanagable's Avatar
Unmanagable Unmanagable is offline
Societal Malarkey Sorter
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Over Yonder in the USA
Posts: 15,709
Thanks: 34,989
Thanked 17,789 Times in 8,902 Posts
Unmanagable has disabled reputation
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

I still chuckle (albeit a bit angrily) when I think of how perplexed the psych docs seemed to be with my supposed pd that they couldn't seem to nail down and ever specify, yet they continually set aside and ignored all of the trauma related info openly shared with them, and never discussed ptsd, while they steadily threw a slew of meds my way for depression, anxiety, adhd, and insomnia.

Perhaps I have a buffet variety. A little bit of everything all rolled into one. Ha! Imagine that. Their ideas and methods of treating all of their various diagnoses of me were damaging enough to make me seek relief elsewhere, luckily. Their widespread and perceived incompetence ended up being the silver lining to my ongoing and worsening clouds of misery, repeatedly.

Not sure what that means in the grand scheme of things as far as opinions go, be it professional or otherwise, but I sure feel more relief on this particular path, more so than I've ever felt in pursuit of wellness via most typical means, so I'll stick with it, until it no longer works, lol, then I'll figure it out again, and again, and again, with any luck, quite painfully, I'm sure, and with or without their labeling guesstimations.
__________________

"You torment yourself wondering how they could not love your burning heart. And the answer darling, you are not the star you thought you were. You are the f******g universe and not everybody is an astronaut." ~Unknown
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Unmanagable For This Useful Post:
Fortune (07-15-16), midnightstar (07-15-16), namazu (07-15-16)
  #14  
Old 07-17-16, 06:55 PM
Cyllya Cyllya is offline
ADDvanced Contributor
 

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 578
Thanks: 38
Thanked 663 Times in 339 Posts
Cyllya has a reputation beyond reputeCyllya has a reputation beyond reputeCyllya has a reputation beyond reputeCyllya has a reputation beyond reputeCyllya has a reputation beyond reputeCyllya has a reputation beyond reputeCyllya has a reputation beyond reputeCyllya has a reputation beyond reputeCyllya has a reputation beyond reputeCyllya has a reputation beyond reputeCyllya has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

I feel like psychiatric diagnostic labels are pretty flaky in general (i.e. they're all real problems, but the line drawn between one disorder and another doesn't always make sense), and I suspect that it's even worse for personality disorders.

It seems like executive dysfunction (e.g. ADHD, ASD) + trauma + associated anxiety would almost certainly make you end up with pretty much the exact set of traits of OCPD. (So would ADHD + OCD.) The diagnostic criteria requires that the problem isn't due to another health problem, but will they count mental health problems for that?

A key trait of PDs (and what separates OCPD from OCD) is that they are usually supposed to be ego-syntonic, meaning the patient considers them correct and healthy. That would explain why it's considered hard to treat: it's usually not feasible to treat something the patient doesn't want treatment for! But if you're actually looking for treatment, that wouldn't apply to you. Even if OCPD is still a good diagnosis for you in spite of it being ego-dystonic, it means you've got a more treatable variant of OCPD, and they should acknowledge that.

I found this from Wikipedia interesting:

Quote:
There are considerable similarities and overlap between Asperger's syndrome and OCPD,[19] such as list-making, inflexible adherence to rules, and obsessive aspects of Asperger's syndrome, though the former may be distinguished from OCPD especially regarding affective behaviors, worse social skills, difficulties with Theory of Mind and intense intellectual interests e.g. an ability to recall every aspect of a hobby.[20] A 2009 study involving adult autistic people found that 40% of those diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome met the diagnostic requirements for a co-morbid OCPD diagnosis.[21]
I like how the parts that distinguish AS from OCPD are also what distinguish AS from ADHD. Pretty sure inflexible adherence to rules and especially list-making are related to executive dysfunction. I wonder what percentage of people with primarily inattentive ADHD meet the requirements for a co-morbid OCPD diagnosis.

Quote:
But there's some truth to it as personality in general is so hard to change. I think you can never totally change your personality, you are who you are. But you can modify it and learn to integrate other opposing traits to balance your personality. And in the case of personality disorder, you can learn to bring your personality style to the normal level of adjustment, i.e. there are many "normal" OCDPs. These things are tremendously hard work, though, and it probably requires more than a lifetime to fully change and undo the effects of personality disorder, but it doesn't mean people can't move in the direction of health.
It's true that personality is hard to change, but how do the diagnosticians distinguish that a problem is part of the patient's personality and not from a normal mental disorder? Especially considering how often mental health professionals get weird interpretations about a patient's behavior and opinions.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Cyllya For This Useful Post:
aeon (07-17-16), Fuzzy12 (07-17-16), midnightstar (07-17-16), namazu (07-17-16)
  #15  
Old 02-03-18, 11:50 AM
MaxDemain MaxDemain is offline
Newbie
 

Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: South Florida, FL
Posts: 9
Thanks: 5
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
MaxDemain is on a distinguished road
Re: Does "personality disorders" actually mean anything?

@Cyllya

Forgive my spelling. Even the computer can't help me sometimes and trying to be perfect imobilizes me.

I also wonder the % "with primarily inattentive ADHD meet the requirements for a co-morbid OCPD".

I learned I was ADD at age 28 in college. It was another student that helped me connect the dots. It wasn't the professionals. Later professionals confirmed the diagnostics. It was undetected because I am not hyper. I just loose my train of thought.

It 1st grade they diagnosed me with dyslexia. So I was in the system and in front of the professionals from the beginning. Lots of phycological testing throughout school. 20 years later another student picks up on the fact that I am ADD. Suddenly with a little retilin my grades go from D's to A's.

One pill and just for the "test" my grade goes from F to A.

Twenty more years go by and young neurologist tells me I have OCPD. The medical community only starting to figure this stuff out now.

When I explain OCPD symtoms to my friends (mostly nero diverse) they say there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with though symtoms they all seem pritty helpful.

So OCPD is very under diagnosed I suspect like you there is a higher than expected correlation between ADD(I know the DSM dropped ADD and uses ADHD, but they are different to me ) and OCPD.

Relating to "..inflexible adherence to rules and especially list-making are related to executive dysfunction..."

It might be how it starts. I also noticed people like Einstien and Steve Jobs (OCPD) both wore the same simple dark colored cloths everyday so they didn't waste time thinking about matching colors.Their clostest were full of clothes that were indistiguishable. I found it helped me to get out the door faster and on to things that I wanted to work on. I really like being productive.

Then I noticed that having a list and looking at it once or twice a day helped me focus on what was important. It would help me prioritize or reprioritize. (Great book: Getting Things Done).

I think it comes down to higher effientcy and productivity and gives repeatable results.

I think it was in "Driven to Distration" a book about ADD that I pickup up that we have adictive personalities. Its not joing to change so just pick your addictions. Like choose exercise or meditation as hobbies so you don't get sucked into less healthy alternatives.


Think about farming 50-10000 years ago. Make a list of things to do. Execute that list to the letter. Wait 6 moths to see the results. Make adjustment after 6 months and repete.

You have to be rigid in your execution and repetitive in your behaviour.

Problem comes in when your significant other doesn't understand why you have to have plates washed in a specific way, and placed in a specific location in the cabnet.

The trick with OCPD is to try to figure out when being perfect doesn't matter.

Its not easy to figure out when your OCPD. Everything matters.


@Midnightstar

Try to find a hot shot young neurologist. The next generation doctors are learning the new stuff. The old ones don't know anything about how our minds work.

Meditation is the one of the best medications and its free after you get the hang of it.
__________________
Best,

Max
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MaxDemain For This Useful Post:
midnightstar (02-03-18)
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Viewing ADD as a "personality trait" vs. a "mental disorder" lmg2474 General ADD Talk 103 05-18-15 08:09 PM
"Personality Conflict?" Impetus Careers/Job Impact 18 09-14-11 04:37 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 2003 - 2015 ADD Forums