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  #46  
Old 02-10-19, 10:23 PM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

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Originally Posted by LeighWolf View Post
Right. Now that you put it in the context of other people's creativity, and mention yours, it's easy enough to see. I wonder if that desire for appreciation is a tip-off to something being a creative act. One doesn't admire the purely logical or mathematical, like an algorithm. While you can have admiration for concepts, no one would gaze at or be inspired by a ratio, let alone ask for another or wonder how you accomplished it. Creative things are meant to be shared and admired. I even consider a creative medication plan that works a better achievement than a "treat as usual" that works. And it's nice to have someone appreciate that and ask you how you arrived at the notion.

Why not share your creative endeavors here?
Have you never watched The Big Bang Theory? One most certainly can admire
the purely logical or mathematical if that's where one's interest lies. And as the
scientific journals show, they can be and are shared and admired.
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  #47  
Old 02-13-19, 09:16 PM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Have you never watched The Big Bang Theory? One most certainly can admire
the purely logical or mathematical if that's where one's interest lies. And as the
scientific journals show, they can be and are shared and admired.
No I haven't. I get your point and agree. I think I am not sure how to convey the difference between something that is mechanical and admirable vs something that is creative and admirable. I love chemistry and enjoy chemical structure and function. It's my major interest. But what I feel observing a compound's apparent behavior is different than what I feel hearing soaring and well played music. Boy, those can be considered to be awfully close in many ways. And both beautiful, admirable and inspiring. But I don't create with chemistry. I observe it, interact with it, manipulate and describe it. Creative acts are different.

Or maybe they're not, in which case the whole creative vs not creative would seem to be moot?
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  #48  
Old 02-13-19, 11:56 PM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

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Originally Posted by LeighWolf View Post
No I haven't. I get your point and agree. I think I am not sure how to convey the difference between something that is mechanical and admirable vs something that is creative and admirable. I love chemistry and enjoy chemical structure and function. It's my major interest. But what I feel observing a compound's apparent behavior is different than what I feel hearing soaring and well played music. Boy, those can be considered to be awfully close in many ways. And both beautiful, admirable and inspiring. But I don't create with chemistry. I observe it, interact with it, manipulate and describe it. Creative acts are different.

Or maybe they're not, in which case the whole creative vs not creative would seem to be moot?
Is it not the same kind of thing when someone takes a musical instrument
(including the voice) and manipulates it to create something?

Something which can be beautiful, but also may not be beautiful.
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  #49  
Old 02-21-19, 05:52 PM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

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It's true, as you suggest, that it's rare for all results on a particular topic of research to be uniformly consistent. But in this case, there's really been very little rigorous study, and there's a whole lot of wishful thinking. That doesn't rule out a connection between ADHD and creativity -- it just means that it can't be considered a proven fact that people with ADHD are more creative than others.
Ok, I'll tone down my language about how it's as proven as can be almost. Still seems like most studies support it though.

Out of curiosity, what is the line between when there is enough research and data to support something enough to call it conclusive from a scientific standpoint? Just wondering how difficult that is to achieve in an underfunded area like this.
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  #50  
Old 02-21-19, 06:33 PM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

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Out of curiosity, what is the line between when there is enough research and data to support something enough to call it conclusive from a scientific standpoint? Just wondering how difficult that is to achieve in an underfunded area like this.
It's pretty difficult!

1) "Where is the line?" is a question whose answer tends to be subjective/arbitrary. Sensible people can disagree on how much evidence is enough. Sometimes, one or two really well-designed, large studies (if they can be funded/carried out!) can be overwhelmingly persuasive. (But as long as there remains considerable disagreement among people who know the subject well, and there continue to be conflicting/mixed/nuance-adding results from recent studies, to me, that points to "inconclusive"!)

2) In this particular case, so much depends on how one defines "creativity", as people have been discussing in different ways in this thread. It may be that people with ADHD are more likely to have high levels of certain traits associated with creativity (e.g. disinhibition, novelty-seeking) but not others (e.g. ability to generate multiple solutions to a problem quickly). It may be that people with ADHD are very good at generating ideas, but lack the creative output to show for it because of poor follow-through. Etc. (Note: These are just possible examples; don't take them as truth.)

3) A lot also depends on how people conceptualize ADHD, which probably arises through multiple genetic and environmental pathways. We know that different symptoms are more troublesome for some people with ADHD than others, and that they don't all manifest the same way for everyone with the diagnosis. It may be that some flavors of ADHD are associated with greater creativity (for a given definition of creativity) and others are not.

A wise scientist once told me, after I'd made some comment about how there wasn't consensus on a particular issue, that "Science doesn't operate by consensus." It's true -- in some fields, there are debates that rage (politely or, in some cases, not-so-politely) for generations. As new evidence comes out, it's up to researchers (and others) to evaluate their models to see if the models fit the data, and to change them if they don't. (Of course, that also assumes that the new evidence was generated in a rigorous manner, and that the interpretation of the evidence is unambiguous, and one or both of those conditions may not be met.)

Last edited by namazu; 02-21-19 at 06:45 PM..
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  #51  
Old 02-22-19, 05:41 AM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

Sometimes I feel like there is something wrong with me because I do not see how adhd makes me more creative or think outside the box...
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  #52  
Old 02-22-19, 11:59 AM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

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Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
Sometimes I feel like there is something wrong with me because I do not see how adhd makes me more creative or think outside the box...
I wonder if it's only those with adhd alone that are more creative?

When you add in other issues like ASD, bipolar, anxiety, etc, does that interfere
with the creative gene?
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  #53  
Old 02-22-19, 04:00 PM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
I wonder if it's only those with adhd alone that are more creative?

When you add in other issues like ASD, bipolar, anxiety, etc, does that interfere
with the creative gene?
There's been even more research on creativity and bipolar disorder than on creativity and ADHD...
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  #54  
Old 02-22-19, 04:33 PM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

One useful thing to remember here, I guess -- even if it were unequivocally true that people with X diagnosis were "more creative" on average -- it doesn't mean that every single person with X diagnosis is necessarily super-creative.
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  #55  
Old 02-25-19, 02:08 AM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

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Originally Posted by acdc01 View Post
Ok, I'll tone down my language about how it's as proven as can be almost. Still seems like most studies support it though.

Out of curiosity, what is the line between when there is enough research and data to support something enough to call it conclusive from a scientific standpoint? Just wondering how difficult that is to achieve in an underfunded area like this.
this is tough

the creativity thing can be subjective, like im more of the understanding that people with adhd can excel behing normal in things that interest them, due to the inability to regulate interest for what it is, an emotion

can you take anecdotal evidence ? absolutely not, if its one person or people "they know" for something

but what about top researchers , those who have seen so many people with adhd they can provide great insight? is their anecdotal evidence worth anything? read what brown, barkley, nigg, etc say about these topics


another avenue is recent cognitive profiling of specific genetic variants of adhd

for some reason is still not that understood , that like everything in the DSM adhd is just a group of symptoms . well there are single gene phenotypes of adhd . ive seen cognitive profiling of them and there does seem to be , among many weaknesses , certain strengths that can be linked to creativity or maybe hyperfocusing

its fun stuff
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  #56  
Old 02-25-19, 02:18 AM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

heres one

fragile premutation, is much more common than thought, 93% of people with it will meet full blown adhd, it be crazy not to believe there is some value using it as a model for adhd

this cognitive profile shows deficits in executive function sound familiar?
Profiling Fragile X Syndrome in males: strengths and weaknesses in cognitive abilities.
Van der Molen MJ1, Huizinga M, Huizenga HM, Ridderinkhof KR, Van der Molen MW, Hamel BJ, Curfs LM, Ramakers GJ.
Author information


Abstract
The present study examined the cognitive profile in Fragile X Syndrome (FXS) males, and investigated whether cognitive profiles are similar for FXS males at different levels of intellectual functioning. Cognitive abilities in non-verbal, verbal, memory and executive functioning domains were contrasted to both a non-verbal and verbal mental age reference. Model-based cluster analyses revealed three distinct subgroups which differed in level of functioning, but showed similar cognitive profiles. Results showed that cognitive performance is particularly weak on measures of reasoning- and performal abilities confined to abstract item content, but relatively strong on measures of visuo-perceptual recognition and vocabulary. Further, a significant weakness was found for verbal short-term memory. Finally, these results indicated that the choice of an appropriate reference is critically important in examining cognitive profiles. The pattern of findings that emerged from the current cognitive profiling of FXS males was interpreted to suggest a fundamental deficit in executive control.
Copyright 2009 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.
PMID: 19939624 DOI: 10.1016/j.ridd.2009.10.013
[Indexed for MEDLINE]

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but there are also strengths not just deficits , could it be a way the brain functions when EF is weak?

one strength, visuo-perceptual recognition
Cognitive scientists understand the importance of perception and pattern recognition as a major component of creative thinking
Perception and Pattern Recognition
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Last edited by namazu; 02-25-19 at 10:44 AM.. Reason: Replaced link to commercial website (prohibited) with print-friendly version of page.
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Old 02-25-19, 02:23 AM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

or if youre able to make connections for yourself when something hasn't been really studied much



Enhanced perception in savant syndrome: patterns, structure and creativity
Laurent Mottron,1,2,* Michelle Dawson,1 and Isabelle Soulières1,2,3
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This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

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Abstract
According to the enhanced perceptual functioning (EPF) model, autistic perception is characterized by: enhanced low-level operations; locally oriented processing as a default setting; greater activation of perceptual areas during a range of visuospatial, language, working memory or reasoning tasks; autonomy towards higher processes; and superior involvement in intelligence. EPF has been useful in accounting for autistic relative peaks of ability in the visual and auditory modalities. However, the role played by atypical perceptual mechanisms in the emergence and character of savant abilities remains underdeveloped. We now propose that enhanced detection of patterns, including similarity within and among patterns, is one of the mechanisms responsible for operations on human codes, a type of material with which savants show particular facility. This mechanism would favour an orientation towards material possessing the highest level of internal structure, through the implicit detection of within- and between-code isomorphisms. A second mechanism, related to but exceeding the existing concept of redintegration, involves completion, or filling-in, of missing information in memorized or perceived units or structures. In the context of autistics' enhanced perception, the nature and extent of these two mechanisms, and their possible contribution to the creativity evident in savant performance, are explored.
Autism is characterized by enhanced perceptual processing (Happé & Frith 2006; Mottron et al. 2006a). The superiority of autistics in low-level cognitive operations (e.g. discrimination) is a widely replicated finding in both the visual and auditory modalities (Dakin & Frith 2005; Samson et al. 2006). At least at the group level, this advantage can be observed in most operations involving perceptual material. For example, superior discriminative performance co-occurs in the same autistic individuals with enhanced abilities in a variety of target detection tasks involving mnemonic, attentional or visuospatial operations (Caron et al. 2006). In the auditory modality, superior pitch discrimination, labelling and memory also co-occur (Bonnel et al. 2003; Heaton 2003). Mechanisms involved in these perceptual skill superiorities are not yet fully understood, but a more extensive and atypical involvement of primary and associative perceptual areas during perceptual tasks (Gaffrey et al. 2007; Manjaly et al. 2007; Milne et al. 2009), atypical lateral inhibition in both modalities (Bertone et al. 2005; Vandenbroucke et al. 2008) and functional autonomy of perceptual operations from top-down processing influences (Caron et al. 2006) are complementary and promising physiological explanations.
The collection of empirical findings and associated putative partial mechanisms related to autistic perception has been combined under the label of enhanced perceptual functioning (EPF), a behavioural and physiological model that has recently been updated in the form of a short list of principles (Mottron et al. 2006a). These principles can be considered variously as descriptive and/or explicative. For example, one principle is that top-down influences on perceptual systems are optional in autism and mandatory in non-autistics. This assertion may act not only as a unifying description for the dominant and extended role of perception in autistic strengths, but also as an explanatory mechanism for the autonomy of perception with respect to various higher level cognitive processes. The wide variety of atypical mechanisms involved in EPF principles suggests that autistic cognitiv
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Old 02-25-19, 10:23 AM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

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Originally Posted by daveddd View Post
this is tough

the creativity thing can be subjective, like im more of the understanding that people with adhd can excel behing normal in things that interest them, due to the inability to regulate interest for what it is, an emotion

can you take anecdotal evidence ? absolutely not, if its one person or people "they know" for something

but what about top researchers , those who have seen so many people with adhd they can provide great insight? is their anecdotal evidence worth anything? read what brown, barkley, nigg, etc say about these topics


another avenue is recent cognitive profiling of specific genetic variants of adhd

for some reason is still not that understood , that like everything in the DSM adhd is just a group of symptoms . well there are single gene phenotypes of adhd . ive seen cognitive profiling of them and there does seem to be , among many weaknesses , certain strengths that can be linked to creativity or maybe hyperfocusing

its fun stuff
Earlier in this thread I shared a link with Barkley's response to an opinion piece
in Scientific American where he wrote: " ... people with ADHD range across the
entire spectrum of creativity ... creativity, among other psychological abilities,
is not increased by virtue of the person having ADHD."

https://www.printfriendly.com/p/g/kkwFXT

I didn't look for research by Joel Nigg or others. Barkley tends to read all those
people and find the common thread.
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Old 02-25-19, 11:57 PM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Earlier in this thread I shared a link with Barkley's response to an opinion piece
in Scientific American where he wrote: " ... people with ADHD range across the
entire spectrum of creativity ... creativity, among other psychological abilities,
is not increased by virtue of the person having ADHD."

https://www.printfriendly.com/p/g/kkwFXT

I didn't look for research by Joel Nigg or others. Barkley tends to read all those
people and find the common thread.
yea, like i mentioned, if there are cognitive strengths in ADHD, my personal belief is it revolves more around hyperfocus, hyperactive

barkley will rarely mention a strength , but in taking charge of adult adhd he mentions how people with adhd often make fantastic pharmaceutical reps, because theyre always moving and traveling
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Old 02-26-19, 12:06 AM
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Re: Feel i'm not creative as others of my level of intelligence

thomas brown constantly mentions cognitive strengths he sees in adhd

im not interested in any conversations saying this means adhd is a gift, thats ridiculous

I'm just open to thinking maybe more primitive forms of self regulation can have strengths that people with ADHD can use to their advantage, because, well they have no choice wether they have ADHD or not. so this isnt "having adhd makes me so much better than norms, cause i really get it man" its just , this is the way my brain works

the dsm syndrome of ADHD is defined strictly by deficit , personally it seems poor executive function involves regualtion in different immature forms less than strict deficits or lacking ability
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