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  #196  
Old 02-23-17, 09:19 PM
Nelson1967 Nelson1967 is offline
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

Your selfish if it's u then others first is not wrong at all to do others then self
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  #197  
Old 11-28-17, 03:19 AM
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mikemotorbike mikemotorbike is offline
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

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Originally Posted by RhapsodyInBlue View Post
The "author" is a very well known narcissist, and someone who's words I would be very leary of. I believe it would take more than one or two dates to know this much about a person, and Vankin [the author] is smart enough to know this.

I am not saying there are no good points here, there are, but to make it a forum focal post is a narcissits dream. Vankin would love it!

-Viktoria
Agree. This is a handbook for disentitlement. A narrsisist's wet dream. A poison pill with a sugar coating. Hard on identification, soft on solution.

If anybody asks for prior advisement of your social calendar, immediately consider terminating that relationship. Immediately, firmly, and constantly, establish that under no circumstances would you do so You must affirm your sovereign right to determine when with whom you play. After the person concedes, and only then, directly but lightly ask, why they wanted to know? If it was innocuous, then no harm done. You have demonstrated your autonomy. If the request turns out to be neurotic, then you have just saved your bacon.

Let them know you don't agree, simply, with self respect. Don't argue or force the issue. I suggest inwardly at that very moment, changing your availability. Decide to tread lightly. They are crazy. You coddle crazy people. Take longer to answer emails, Don't pick up the phone right way, call them back, later...you were busy. Be emotionally available, enthusiastic, sincere and genuine when you do interact, just do it less.

You might have to be rude at some point tho, because the longer you let them down gently, the more they want better pickins and will precipitate an impossible situation which will force the issue. This can work in your favour. But I'm not so sure. You might lose your self control one day and play your cards wrong, and he would have evidence to trash your reputation. Identify why you responded to their attention. Bad boys are attractive. Don't lead them on. Take control of your life first.

Real friends will wait months. But then, if you truly are fabulous, an abuser will instinctively know you are a really fine meal, and worth the payoff after a long wait. You might be caught at a weak moment if you are being too gentle too long. It's like playing with dynamite. Better take control and be upfront at the right moment. Then, if you are lonely one night, and the sexy bugger shows up with a dozen roses, but you wont be wailing in your bedsheets at home. You will still be be alone and lonely, but instead you decided finally to take matters into your own hands an just go to the social event on your own. Where you will meet a fabulous person like yourself, who, just like you, didn't settle– who waited, lonely, and took himself by the hand to the social event, where he met a kindred spirit. This is what I am learning.

And beware of dating sites where dates show up with a uhaul. If people say they are looking for a relationship, watch out! I know this sounds paradoxical, because i too pine for a cuddle buddy... but the first relationship is the one we have with ourselves. Look for 'friends', or 'other.', no matter how lonely. Especially if lonely!

I dunno. Love myself, and by extension, others, or jump enthusiastically into a co-dependent or abusive relationship? What do you think? He sure is sexy....

Last edited by mikemotorbike; 11-28-17 at 03:33 AM..
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  #198  
Old 04-23-18, 11:50 PM
mind_in_orbit mind_in_orbit is offline
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

Reading this was interesting, in that it gave me some insight into how certain women (and certain typically-developing adults in general) think. I don't mean that the profile given is descriptive of them, but rather the fact that they would WRITE something like this shows something about the kind of boxes they put people into, and how they interpret certain traits. To me, this profile seems like a hodgepodge of things, some of which seem consistent with how someone with developmental differences (e.g. an autism spectrum disorder) would tend to behave, and some that seem totally opposite from that.

Here are my interpretations:

Quote:
Does he keep blaming you, the cab driver, the waiter, the weather, the government, or fortune for his predicament?
Seems typical for someone who has trouble grasping how the social world works, in addition to having irritable tendencies (as a subset of neurodiverse people do).

Quote:
Is he hypersensitive, picks up fights, feels constantly slighted, injured, and insulted? Does he rant incessantly?
Same. I've heard of quite a few on the spectrum who are like this, and have a lot of this tendency myself.

Quote:
Does he confess to having a history of battering or violent offenses or behavior?
I hope there's an implied "as an adult" here. Many neurodiverse people have histories of violent outbursts as children, and though it's much less common, some retain at least a bit of this into adulthood.

Quote:
Next thing: is he too eager?
This is common in people who have missed out on developmental stages, and/or feel like everyone else has done things that they haven't.

Quote:
Does he control the situation and you compulsively? Does he interrogate you when you return ("have you seen anyone interesting")
Again, this need for control can come from feeling like there's a "social rulebook" that one doesn't understand.

Quote:
Does he emphasize your minutest faults (devalues you) even as he exaggerates your talents, traits, and skills (idealizes you)? Is he wildly unrealistic in his expectations from you, from himself, from the budding relationship, and from life in general?
Again, this could easily refer to someone behind in his/her social development, who hasn't been emotionally close with anyone before and doesn't know how to pace things or what to expect.

Quote:
Does he have fantasies of....pedophilia?
Once again, this can certainly be a "symptom" of having missed out on developmental stages. I'll put a "trigger warning" here for just the rest of this paragraph because the following could potentially trigger some people with bad experiences in their childhoods. Anyway, there are sadistic pedophiles, who most people have heard about because they're the most notorious, but there are also plenty who are missing a certain stage in their romantic development. This isn't made up--I've read quite a few personal stories of self-admitted pedophiles and there are quite a few with lots of "markers" of neurodiversity and developmental differences, including hyper-sentimentality, "hopeless romanticism" (sometimes to what many might consider a "painful" degree), etc. (see below). Now, if the person actually dates real children, that's a different story, as at the very least it indicates a difficulty obeying the law--but the list specifies "fantasies of". I didn't really want to bring this up, but then I wasn't the one who chose to put this on the list.

However, then there are some other things on the list that are very INconsistent with the above picture. For instance:

Quote:
Does he treat animals and children impatiently or cruelly
This is exactly the opposite of the what most of the people I was referring to above would do. Many of those who are outsiders in the adult human world feel a special kinship towards children and/or dogs/cats. I know that I can be bitter about not having a girlfriend, dealing with a chronic illness, AND doing poorly at work/in a class all at once, and if I see a happy dog walking by all that is erased for the moment. Animals don't judge the way that adult humans do.

Quote:
does he express negative and aggressive emotions towards ... the sentimental and the disabled?
To the contrary, many who are socially isolated and/or behind in social development feel a connection to the poets and the artists, and don't judge those with disabilities.

It seems that there are two things that potentially are confused here. For people who feel bitter and slighted all the time, and who try and maintain control around other people, this could stem from a feeling of lacking control and/or being socially unaware (in the case of people on the spectrum, especially those who had additional factors that kept them from growing up like everyone else), OR it could come from someone who acts brutally toward others intentionally as a matter of course. The two of these are, from my perspective, at opposite ends of the relatability/sympathy scale.

The former acts aggressive out of a perceived unfairness of the world, and out of a difficulty fitting in within the (particularly adult) social world, which is seen as unforgiving. The more control he/she is given, the less irritable and controlling he/she feels the need to act. An illustration of this is the woman in the viral video yelling about the unfairness of missing a flight to a Disney cruise. Most of us can probably agree that she could have handled this more productively, but I would much rather deal with her than an angry cop, much less a gang member who makes a living out of ruthlessness, or even just someone who is manipulative in relationships without regard for fairness. Someone like that, the more control he/she is given, the MORE ruthless he/she will become.

I will use an analogy that will probably make me sound like a total gamer, which is ironic because I'm considerably less into video games than most others on the spectrum who I've met. But it goes like this... imagine you're sitting there playing a game on level 5, which is the farthest you have ever gotten. Then someone comes over and takes the controller from you, and gives it back to you on level 25. How will you react, if nobody understands that you were playing level 5 before?

My point is, it may be rather difficult to differentiate people who are genuinely behind in their emotional development, and people whose goal it is to take advantage, solely based on how they act while playing level 25. Many of both types will likely be "sore losers", the former because they have been forced to play level f***ing 25 when they were still trying to beat level 5, and the latter because they will be sore losers on ANY level. However, let each of them play level 5, and you will see the difference. Those who are on level 25 but who want to game the system, they will likely have disdain for those still playing level 5. On the other hand, those who were on level 5, they will likely have empathy for others stuck on level 5, and will try to help them.

I question whether people who would read the quoted profile and have it resonate can't tell the difference between the two, or simply don't care to. It's quite possible some of them feel like anyone who doesn't take things in stride and is unable to roll with the punches is a
"loser" for whatever reason, and doesn't want to bother understanding further. In any case, the fact that someone would make a list like this that "smooshes" all this together and interprets all these qualities alike was an eye-opener.
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  #199  
Old 04-24-18, 12:14 PM
daveddd daveddd is offline
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

Quote:
Originally Posted by mind_in_orbit View Post
Reading this was interesting, in that it gave me some insight into how certain women (and certain typically-developing adults in general) think. I don't mean that the profile given is descriptive of them, but rather the fact that they would WRITE something like this shows something about the kind of boxes they put people into, and how they interpret certain traits. To me, this profile seems like a hodgepodge of things, some of which seem consistent with how someone with developmental differences (e.g. an autism spectrum disorder) would tend to behave, and some that seem totally opposite from that.

Here are my interpretations:



Seems typical for someone who has trouble grasping how the social world works, in addition to having irritable tendencies (as a subset of neurodiverse people do).



Same. I've heard of quite a few on the spectrum who are like this, and have a lot of this tendency myself.



I hope there's an implied "as an adult" here. Many neurodiverse people have histories of violent outbursts as children, and though it's much less common, some retain at least a bit of this into adulthood.



This is common in people who have missed out on developmental stages, and/or feel like everyone else has done things that they haven't.



Again, this need for control can come from feeling like there's a "social rulebook" that one doesn't understand.



Again, this could easily refer to someone behind in his/her social development, who hasn't been emotionally close with anyone before and doesn't know how to pace things or what to expect.



Once again, this can certainly be a "symptom" of having missed out on developmental stages. I'll put a "trigger warning" here for just the rest of this paragraph because the following could potentially trigger some people with bad experiences in their childhoods. Anyway, there are sadistic pedophiles, who most people have heard about because they're the most notorious, but there are also plenty who are missing a certain stage in their romantic development. This isn't made up--I've read quite a few personal stories of self-admitted pedophiles and there are quite a few with lots of "markers" of neurodiversity and developmental differences, including hyper-sentimentality, "hopeless romanticism" (sometimes to what many might consider a "painful" degree), etc. (see below). Now, if the person actually dates real children, that's a different story, as at the very least it indicates a difficulty obeying the law--but the list specifies "fantasies of". I didn't really want to bring this up, but then I wasn't the one who chose to put this on the list.

However, then there are some other things on the list that are very INconsistent with the above picture. For instance:



This is exactly the opposite of the what most of the people I was referring to above would do. Many of those who are outsiders in the adult human world feel a special kinship towards children and/or dogs/cats. I know that I can be bitter about not having a girlfriend, dealing with a chronic illness, AND doing poorly at work/in a class all at once, and if I see a happy dog walking by all that is erased for the moment. Animals don't judge the way that adult humans do.



To the contrary, many who are socially isolated and/or behind in social development feel a connection to the poets and the artists, and don't judge those with disabilities.

It seems that there are two things that potentially are confused here. For people who feel bitter and slighted all the time, and who try and maintain control around other people, this could stem from a feeling of lacking control and/or being socially unaware (in the case of people on the spectrum, especially those who had additional factors that kept them from growing up like everyone else), OR it could come from someone who acts brutally toward others intentionally as a matter of course. The two of these are, from my perspective, at opposite ends of the relatability/sympathy scale.

The former acts aggressive out of a perceived unfairness of the world, and out of a difficulty fitting in within the (particularly adult) social world, which is seen as unforgiving. The more control he/she is given, the less irritable and controlling he/she feels the need to act. An illustration of this is the woman in the viral video yelling about the unfairness of missing a flight to a Disney cruise. Most of us can probably agree that she could have handled this more productively, but I would much rather deal with her than an angry cop, much less a gang member who makes a living out of ruthlessness, or even just someone who is manipulative in relationships without regard for fairness. Someone like that, the more control he/she is given, the MORE ruthless he/she will become.

I will use an analogy that will probably make me sound like a total gamer, which is ironic because I'm considerably less into video games than most others on the spectrum who I've met. But it goes like this... imagine you're sitting there playing a game on level 5, which is the farthest you have ever gotten. Then someone comes over and takes the controller from you, and gives it back to you on level 25. How will you react, if nobody understands that you were playing level 5 before?

My point is, it may be rather difficult to differentiate people who are genuinely behind in their emotional development, and people whose goal it is to take advantage, solely based on how they act while playing level 25. Many of both types will likely be "sore losers", the former because they have been forced to play level f***ing 25 when they were still trying to beat level 5, and the latter because they will be sore losers on ANY level. However, let each of them play level 5, and you will see the difference. Those who are on level 25 but who want to game the system, they will likely have disdain for those still playing level 5. On the other hand, those who were on level 5, they will likely have empathy for others stuck on level 5, and will try to help them.

I question whether people who would read the quoted profile and have it resonate can't tell the difference between the two, or simply don't care to. It's quite possible some of them feel like anyone who doesn't take things in stride and is unable to roll with the punches is a
"loser" for whatever reason, and doesn't want to bother understanding further. In any case, the fact that someone would make a list like this that "smooshes" all this together and interprets all these qualities alike was an eye-opener.

While youre separating the two. Narcissistic disorder is actually a emotional developmental disorder.
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  #200  
Old 04-25-18, 06:25 AM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

Quote:
Originally Posted by mind_in_orbit View Post
Reading this was interesting, in that it gave me some insight into how certain women (and certain typically-developing adults in general) think. I don't mean that the profile given is descriptive of them, but rather the fact that they would WRITE something like this shows something about the kind of boxes they put people into, and how they interpret certain traits. To me, this profile seems like a hodgepodge of things, some of which seem consistent with how someone with developmental differences (e.g. an autism spectrum disorder) would tend to behave, and some that seem totally opposite from that.
I don't want to address your full post because I am way too tired and I spent two and a half hours writing a long post elsewhere. But, I picked up on your statement about how this profile gives you insight into how certain women and typically-developing adults in general thing, and, well... Sam Vaknin is a man, not a woman. He is also not a typically developing adult. He claims to be a narcissist, but may actually be a psychopath. There are people (professionals as well as people who actually have narcissistic personality disorder) who criticize his work on the topic as an attempt to warp public perception of what NPD is. Which is to say, he may have an agenda in writing things like this that are not actually related to communicating useful information. Following his advice may even make it harder for people to identify abusers.

I mean, some of his information is useful, but take everything he says with a grain of salt and most especially be wary of concluding that his views are representative of anyone but him.

Which is to say, I think you're right to question what he said. I just don't think his thinking represents what you said it might represent.
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  #201  
Old 04-27-18, 05:45 AM
somuchtolife somuchtolife is offline
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

My ex punched me in the face and beat my ribs to the point of bruises when I caught her cheating on me for the 3rd time. GUESS WHAT WORLD. I was a 31 y/o female and she was a 30 y/o female. I had 30 lbs on her. Im 58 shes 55. Every argument she physically hurt me the word that I have rolled over in my head again and again and again.... is PROVOKE. ABUSERS USE THE WORD PROVOKE
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