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Old 04-10-10, 09:47 AM
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Kaos and Control

A few interesting ideas have dropped into place over the last fortnight. It is wonderful what a little break will do for you. I hope you all find this of interest. I think we live in very promising times, and hope this contribution of mien will help. Look out for the book "Ishmael". It has definitely shaken up my view of the world.
Kaos and Control


Kaos and Control, the forces of nastiness versus the forces of niceness. If you were born in the 1950s or the 1960s, this simple concept, from the TV series “Get Smart” seemed to sum up all we needed to know.


The baby boomers, and generation X grew up in the shadow of World War 2, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. We had an example right in front of us of the potential for mischief and chaos in the human spirit, and the need to keep firm control of our natures, with all the potential for harm that we contained. The trouble was that the lines of good and evil were blurred. Our parents' generations were morally upright, careful about emotional attachments and sexual liaisons, but seemed as lost as any previous generation. The free love generation of the 1960s seemed to be offering something new, but in the end that dream failed and faded, and some of its leading lights turned out to be among the worst of the greedy exploiters that haunted the eighties and nineties.


In the end we in the tail end of the baby boomers generation and the beginning of generation X just grew up confused. We could see ourselves beset by danger in every direction, but did not know how to respond. First the risk of WWIII, and nuclear annihilation, then global warming, and the ever present oppressive effect of global poverty and overpopulation. Everywhere an observant person looked the beautiful things in the world were being destroyed, all so we could “fit twice as many in the same building space”, to borrow the words of the band Genesis. It seemed that we had to become masters of self control and restraint just to have a hope of surviving. The catch was, a perceptive psychiatrist by the name of Carl Jung had noted the relationship between persona and shadow. The more we try to control our inner nature, the stronger we make our persona, the harder our shadow kicks back at us. It seemed that there was no winning, that we are doomed to fail no matter what we do. Despite this the message was clear- suck it up, hold firm control, be a man, and all will be well.


I remember even as a small child maybe 5-7 years old being haunted by a recurrent horrific dream in which the whole world exploded, all to a doom laden voice over telling me it was all my fault. My religion told me I was flawed from the start, and the solution of “accepting Jesus” seemed to me just to be a meaningless form of words that papered over multiple layers of senseless dogma. It was little wonder that by my early teens I felt quite at home with Franz Kafka, even though I did not know why.


The message that I took from Christianity as I was taught it at school and at Church, was that unless I accepted something that just did not make sense to me that I was personally doomed. However, the experience of WWII and Nazi Germany told me all I needed to know about denying reality. I chose science. I regarded myself as the arch- rationalist, able to shoot down a bogus argument at 500 metres. I trained well in this skill, and learned from masters such as George Orwell, Bertrand Russell, and Noam Chomsky. I had the whole world under control now. I was the master of the rational, but I was still no happier. In many ways I was worse. I thought I knew it all, and could be pretty hostile to anyone whose reality bumped up against mine. More than a few people came up against this aspect of the working out of my karma. ( Sorry about that!)


Relief came for me in the form of Buddhism. I gradually noticed that there was a whole class of people who seemed to sidestep this whole mess and avoid all the questions that troubled me, and even seemed to be amused by them. Their answers were mysterious and somehow remarkably attractive. Talk of “Silver Dewdrops Slipping into a Shining Sea” and “No Snow, No Skier, Only Skiing' rung a bell on a deeper plane. The book Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance taught me that I could use all kinds of concepts to cut up reality, just like a jeweller could cleave a diamond along different planes ( that led me naturally to the Diamond Sutra), or a a baker would use different cookie cutters to get different results out of the same dough. The harder I looked the more bizarre the paradoxes seemed, as I learned about the Great Way, which is easy for those who know no preferences; the Ten Thousand Things; and the fact that when enlightened Samsara is Nirvana, and one just “draws water and chops wood”.


While all this was happening, I was getting older, I became a father, and was dismayed to see my children struggle when they left early childhood. What really distressed me was that everything I did to try and help them seemed to have the opposite effect. The harder I tried the worse it all became, the worse our relationship was and the more I struggled.


Finally I ended up in such a state of confusion that I was diagnosable with ADHD, and fitted that classification perfectly ( right down to the SPECT scan which was pathognomonic). Not a bad achievement for a would be Dharma practitioner! One hundred and eighty degrees in the wrong direction! It was maybe a fortunate turn of events though- as it did not take too long to get the idea that an “about face” was in order.


What took a little longer though was grasping the extent of my delusions.
The first verse of the Dhammapada got me off to a racing start:
If a man speaks or acts with an unclear (impure) mind, then suffering will surely follow.”


That was clear enough in my situation, but not the whole answer.


A deeper understanding of Dharma reveals the idea that underneath our apparent day to day selves, we all are “Buddha Nature”. Instead of Original Sin we have Original Perfection. It is only our confusion that prevents us from acting in accord with that nature. The way I conceive this is that we are somewhat like those lovely Indian lamps, through which the light of our true nature shines out through tiny chinks in the dense layers of our delusions. To me real communication between individuals consists of seeing that “Buddha Nature” in other individuals, and grasping its identity within our own real selves. This is a radically different idea to the idea presented by common or garden street Christianity ( but not the deeper, mystical kind as expressed by Ekhardt, and St John of Cross). It is neatly encapsulated in the question “what was your face before you were born”. This question is a koan, an apparently insoluble riddle given to novices in Zen training as a focus for their meditation. The answer is easier than one might think.


An important clue in resolving some of these complexities came to me while reading “Ishmael” a book by an author called Daniel Quinn, who narrates the story of a man who was led to the true story of the “Fall of Man”. The core idea of this book is that “The Tree of Knowledge” is the Tree of Knowledge that can only be successfully managed by the Gods. Essentially, our approach is to try and micro manage the whole world, and act as though we can manage all of life though an act of will. The real trap of this approach is that it leaves us responsible for everything. It is as though each of us had tried to take on all the functions of our own autonomic nervous systems, and consciously regulate all of our bodily functions right down to tear production and sweating. In other words it is too much for us to consciously do. The result of this approach lies right before our eyes. Our world is in a state of chaos. The environment is near collapse, the economy hangs on a thread. All around us there is deprivation and hunger, suffered by people who have not committed any wrong in this life. It is a pretty nasty world, the world of which that we have declared ourselves lords and masters. It looks like it is going to get a whole lot nastier in short order if there is not a change of heart.


The answer, though is closer than we might think. It goes back to that koan. What exactly was our face before we were born? What is the life that we were actually evolved to live?
The answer is very simple- we have evolved to live the lives of hunter – gatherers. Two to three hours work per day, and the rest of the day spent spinning yarns, and hanging with our friends. Despite all the bad press, people in the Paleolithic were in general taller, leaner, and kept more of their teeth than is usual in our world nowadays. So much for Western medicine.


So what would be required of a hunter gatherer? Such a person would be very active ( average 18 km/day walking or running), they would have to be good at tracking animals and food plants by following subtle signs. They would be good at working in a group, learning from respected elders, supporting their friends, and defending their tribe, they would encourage tribe members who were feeling downhearted, but would put the interests of the group first. They would be very sensitive for subtle signals when hunting. They would be walking upright more than sitting.
Such an individual would be selected by Darwinian selection to be mindful, concentrated, curious (investigative) energetic, joyful, compassionate and empathetic, tranquil and equanimous in a crisis.


In other words our 3 million years or so as hunter gatherers would have selected for what in Buddhism are called the “Four Perfections, and the Seven Factors of Awakening”. That is my “face before I was born” and I am sure it is yours too. What is more, those qualities are the qualities of the prefrontal cortex, the part of our brains that grew most when we became human.


Once we understand this we truly do live in a new world. We need to understand that at heart we all really are decent, worthwhile people, and that it is only our confusion, and our striving, that prevents this from coming to the surface. Kaos and Control are very apt metaphors, but we have hold of the wrong end of the stick. The harder we try to achieve a goal, the more we try to enforce our will and control a situation, the worse the result. We should watch the movie “Kenny”again, and remember that the final message was to “relax and let it go”.


When we release our will and learn to watch the situation for an opportunity, we find that the chances we need to bring about a happy result are right in front of us, many times each day. It is only that we “can't see for looking.” In the end living in accordance with “The Tao” or The Great Way” or our “Buddha Nature” or “God's Will” are all much the same thing. What is needed to be able to do this is the head space to see what is going on, and the spaciousness to let the right decision come to us. This is not going to happen if we keep ourselves too busy, or get too tied up in the material end of life.


I think we are living in times of great change, and that an enormous opportunity for the good is right in front of all of our noses, right now. It is up to us to pause for a moment, and ask where our best interests really lie. The rest will happen for us.


As a small aside- as a “recovering ADD sufferer” as I now class myself, it is a curious observation that my need for stimulant medication is greatest when I am forcing myself to do work that I have some qualms or doubts about. The “Great Way' really is easy, and extra assistance is not required.
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  #2  
Old 04-10-10, 12:42 PM
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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barliman View Post
In the end living in accordance with “The Tao” or The Great Way” or our “Buddha Nature” or “God's Will” are all much the same thing.
One story; surprisingly hard to tell; well worth the effort.

... ... come out, and live with a religious community in a beautiful place out in the country ... ... ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginniebean,Rumi
Out beyond ideas of wrong-doing and right-doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there ... ...


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  #3  
Old 04-11-10, 03:16 AM
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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barliman View Post
Kaos and Control


Everywhere an observant person looked the beautiful things in the world were being destroyed, all so we could “fit twice as many in the same building space”, to borrow the words of the band Genesis. It seemed that we had to become masters of self control and restraint just to have a hope of surviving. The catch was, a perceptive psychiatrist by the name of Carl Jung had noted the relationship between persona and shadow. The more we try to control our inner nature, the stronger we make our persona, the harder our shadow kicks back at us.


Quote:
And I hope that you are
Having the time of your life
But think twice
That's my only advice


Metanoia


Quote:
Come on now, who do you
Who do you, who do you, who do you think you are?
Ha ha ha, bless your soul
You really think you're in control?








It seemed that there was no winning, that we are doomed to fail no matter what we do. Despite this the message was clear- suck it up, hold firm control, be a man, and all will be well.


Quote:
It was little wonder that by my early teens I felt quite at home with Franz Kafka, even though I did not know why.


There is this sense of bleakness, of such a profound lack of meaning. I have an image, brooding, before a fire, book in hand, one hand pressed to a forhead in anguish. But this was the romanticized mental thought of the feeling. The real image (if such can ever be real) was a room, four walls, small, no windows or doors and thowing myself against the walls.. frustration.. 'I'm alive in here!' Trapped.

Quote:
. I had the whole world under control now. I was the master of the rational, but I was still no happier. In many ways I was worse. I thought I knew it all, and could be pretty hostile to anyone whose reality bumped up against mine. More than a few people came up against this aspect of the working out of my karma. ( Sorry about that!)


Quote:
But it wasn't because I didn't know enough
I just knew too much

Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Possibly
Ahhh yeah, my arrogance bumped up against a few people. I remember reading that knowledge is like medicine and it can do as much to heal as it can to harm. The balance could be kept if your being matched your knowledge. The problem being is that this is just more knowledge, until it isn't. The directions on how to get out of the box are on the outside of the box and you can't see them until you're out.



Quote:
Relief came for me in the form of Buddhism. I gradually noticed that there was a whole class of people who seemed to sidestep this whole mess and avoid all the questions that troubled me, and even seemed to be amused by them. Their answers were mysterious and somehow remarkably attractive.

I was not amused. haha Zen used to just **** me off, I used to actually even say that out loud and I was often amused/disgusted by those who would hear it and then I could see the flash of arrogance cross their features quickly followed by the condescending voice. Why lie? Why make pretense that you've 'got it' when you don't? It was an invitation to be real. The ego always declines. It does neatly side step a mess tho, I always felt tho this was too easy an out and potentially not useful. A cool foreign faith, an externally visible esoterica it's exotic, novel and attractive. Yet here we are, steeped in the psychological 'messiness' of Christianity and it's psychological fall-out. That fall-out of various conflicts can't be avoided and brings it's baggage along willing or not. I figured it's best to know them all, but to be aware that one was the soil in which I was grown in.

Some plants can be transplanted with ease, others, the roots need to be scraped of all soil and then with the risk of a higher mortality rate, at least initially, may thrive. The question, at least for me was, what would be most effective?

Quote:
While all this was happening, I was getting older, I became a father, and was dismayed to see my children struggle when they left early childhood. What really distressed me was that everything I did to try and help them seemed to have the opposite effect. The harder I tried the worse it all became, the worse our relationship was and the more I struggled.


Maybe our help is the desperate desire to control the kaos? Control is an illusion. It's kind of interesting that when describing the relationship of a non-ADDer to an ADDer the non will report feeling out of control and then work to control which more than likely will kill the spirit of the relationship?
I think you might find this short essay interesting.


http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...z_o40b2TlHRXrQ


Quote:
What took a little longer though was grasping the extent of my delusions.
Quote:
The first verse of the Dhammapada got me off to a racing start:
“ If a man speaks or acts with an unclear (impure) mind, then suffering will surely follow.”


A vague wish carries no will?



Quote:
A deeper understanding of Dharma reveals the idea that underneath our apparent day to day selves, we all are “Buddha Nature”. Instead of Original Sin we have Original Perfection.

There's a misunderstanding here, the teaching is that we are born 'into' OS not of it. It's very practical to see that we will be affected by that which is here when we arrive.

When did we stop being perfect? Is it even possible? Perhaps this is the Original Delusion.

It is only our confusion that prevents us from acting in accord with that nature. The way I conceive this is that we are somewhat like those lovely Indian lamps, through which the light of our true nature shines out through tiny chinks in the dense layers of our delusions. To me real communication between individuals consists of seeing that “Buddha Nature” in other individuals, and grasping its identity within our own real selves. This is a radically different idea to the idea presented by common or garden street Christianity ( but not the deeper, mystical kind as expressed by Ekhardt, and St John of Cross). It is neatly encapsulated in the question “what was your face before you were born”. This question is a koan, an apparently insoluble riddle given to novices in Zen training as a focus for their meditation. The answer is easier than one might think.


Quote:
The answer, though is closer than we might think. It goes back to that koan. What exactly was our face before we were born? What is the life that we were actually evolved to live?
Quote:
The answer is very simple- we have evolved to live the lives of hunter – gatherers. Two to three hours work per day, and the rest of the day spent spinning yarns, and hanging with our friends. Despite all the bad press, people in the Paleolithic were in general taller, leaner, and kept more of their teeth than is usual in our world nowadays. So much for Western medicine.

I don't know if reifying the past is any true answer, although simplifying is definitely of worth. How much can you manage, and when I look at the answer to that question it's very little.


Quote:
In other words our 3 million years or so as hunter gatherers would have selected for what in Buddhism are called the “Four Perfections, and the Seven Factors of Awakening”. That is my “face before I was born” and I am sure it is yours too. What is more, those qualities are the qualities of the prefrontal cortex, the part of our brains that grew most when we became human.

How beautiful.



Quote:
Once we understand this we truly do live in a new world. We need to understand that at heart we all really are decent, worthwhile people, and that it is only our confusion, and our striving, that prevents this from coming to the surface. Kaos and Control are very apt metaphors, but we have hold of the wrong end of the stick. The harder we try to achieve a goal, the more we try to enforce our will and control a situation, the worse the result. We should watch the movie “Kenny”again, and remember that the final message was to “relax and let it go”.


ADHD is a disorder (kaos) of time. Yet, time doesn't actually exist. The past is dead, and that which is dead doesn't exist, the future hasn't been born yet and as such doesn't exist (yet). Everything is new now.


Quote:
When we release our will and learn to watch the situation for an opportunity, we find that the chances we need to bring about a happy result are right in front of us, many times each day. It is only that we “can't see for looking.” In the end living in accordance with “The Tao” or The Great Way” or our “Buddha Nature” or “God's Will” are all much the same thing. What is needed to be able to do this is the head space to see what is going on, and the spaciousness to let the right decision come to us. This is not going to happen if we keep ourselves too busy, or get too tied up in the material end of life.


Quote:
I remember when, I remember
I remember when I lost my mind
There was something so pleasant about that place
Even your emotions have an echo in so much space


Quote:
As a small aside- as a “recovering ADD sufferer” as I now class myself, it is a curious observation that my need for stimulant medication is greatest when I am forcing myself to do work that I have some qualms or doubts about. The “Great Way' really is easy, and extra assistance is not required.


Force is violence, violence against the self or others. I feel ill when I force myself. Yet I do just to survive. It's such a pleasure to read what you've written and calls into question my fear that I won't survive.
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  #4  
Old 04-11-10, 07:12 AM
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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginniebean View Post
There's a misunderstanding here, the teaching is that we are born 'into' OS not of it.
Born into a poorly architected windows vista which shows its poor architecture when net books are released; ... ... as we {live, learn, understand} what's important the transition to free, open source, lightweight, google chrome OS occurs.

Full distribution -
exclusively selfish turns ostensibly selfless.

Would we prefer the illusion that we should strive to differentiate ourselves from one another, or the truth that we can all be as happy as we innately desire, if we throw off the delusion.

~*~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jung
Individualization, Individuation
Current rotten nonADD society drives us towards individualization -
attempts to differentiate ourselves from others through selfish ownership of $tuff and non$ense -

- individuation involves the understanding that none of that matters.

~*~

The Buddhist or Christian (or whichever school) monk attains the spiritual state -
individuation
could not have reached that same state if they'd pursued individualization.

Diametrically opposed - where individualization is the primitive of the two desires.

Sportsman and Actor worship for their very lavish lifestyles will take the individual ever further from attaining the spiritual state.

Windows Vista breaking under the strain.
NonADD breaking under the strain.

~*~

The evolutionary drive appears to put in place novel structures which grow uncontrollably (cf virus) - which upon reaching a certain threshold - 'collapse down' into more efficient enclosure (cf first life).

Efficient autonomy - the unifying drive is the pursuit of liberty (freedom).

~*~

Quantity to Quality.

Quality relates to reprise in geometry (the torus - Holy patterns (reality)).

~*~

Summarising -
a generational improvement in quality of operating system built over 'fully distributed' architecture.
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  #5  
Old 04-11-10, 07:28 AM
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Re: Kaos and Control

Ginniebean,
I think Original Sin is one of the most puzzling doctrines of all. I have done my head in trying to figure it out for decades.
You know I see Zen as a little like love. I always knew that I could never get into a relationship of any worth by going out and trying. I sort of had to sidle up and approach it from the corner of my eye. I think Zen was a good antidote to my intellectual pretensions- it threw me back on myself, and pointed out what a complete prat I was (and quite possibly still am). It felt right- but I could not put my finger on why. The fact that it defeated every attempt at analysis helped, and gradually helped me loosen up.

The Christian mystic stuff that talks about our perfect acts coming from God is very close to the same idea. Slowly the feel of the work is coming to me- to stand back and let my good sense come to the fore. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not. I am quicker to notice the difference now, and less likely to spend weeks wallowing in self pity after the latest failure. I think we are all too hard on ourselves, and others.

Daniel Amen said a truly great thing on one of his DVDs meant for Medical Education. He said that he never assumes that anyone wants to be miserable and maladjusted. He assumes everyone wants to be a success and have a happy life, but that circumstances get in the way- whether they be a temporal lobe cyst, or an unfortunate upbringing. I was so impressed- that is a truly forgiving, compassionate attitude. To cultivate an attitude like that is a work worth undertaking. I think it is important to start with the small things- like not getting aggravated in the traffic, and like giving ourselves the permission to have a little rest and relaxation in the never ending daily round of tasks.
I remember hearing it said that we should practice compassion on ourselves first, so we know whether what we are practicing is any good and worth passing on. That seems quite smart to me.
__________________

Whenever you see a crowd all rushing in the same direction on any one issue, run in the opposite direction.

There is neither fun nor profit to be had in polishing the brass knobs on a bandwagon.
Nicholas Nasseem Taleb.


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  #6  
Old 04-11-10, 07:33 AM
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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by SB_UK View Post

Would we prefer the illusion that we should strive to differentiate ourselves from one another, or the truth that we can all be as happy as we innately desire, if we throw off the delusion.

~*~



Current rotten nonADD society drives us towards individualization -
attempts to differentiate ourselves from others through selfish ownership of $tuff and non$ense -

- individuation involves the understanding that none of that matters.

~*~

The Buddhist or Christian (or whichever school) monk attains the spiritual state -
individuation
could not have reached that same state if they'd pursued individualization.

Diametrically opposed - where individualization is the primitive of the two desires.

Sportsman and Actor worship for their very lavish lifestyles will take the individual ever further from attaining the spiritual state.

Windows Vista breaking under the strain.
NonADD breaking under the strain.

~*~

The evolutionary drive appears to put in place novel structures which grow uncontrollably (cf virus) - which upon reaching a certain threshold - 'collapse down' into more efficient enclosure (cf first life).

Efficient autonomy - the unifying drive is the pursuit of liberty (freedom).

~*~

Quantity to Quality.

Quality relates to reprise in geometry (the torus - Holy patterns (reality)).

~*~

Summarising -
a generational improvement in quality of operating system built over 'fully distributed' architecture.
The individuation happens all by itself, if we have the nerve to just explore what interests us- as you so admirably display, SB.
Look around - there are all kind of people doing very novel things quietly, and nobody even notices. It is all a little subversive.
__________________

Whenever you see a crowd all rushing in the same direction on any one issue, run in the opposite direction.

There is neither fun nor profit to be had in polishing the brass knobs on a bandwagon.
Nicholas Nasseem Taleb.


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Old 04-11-10, 01:34 PM
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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by SB_UK View Post
Born into a poorly architected windows vista which shows its poor architecture when net books are released; ... ... as we {live, learn, understand} what's important the transition to free, open source, lightweight, google chrome OS occurs.
You're right, and the thing is those with ADHD can see this. The program's architecture if flawed. People with ADHD are given to self doubt or so say the experts. This is a natural response to being able to see thru the inconsistencies. I have some guesses why this happens, and I have a guess that we are so constructed in order to fulfill a necessary function.

Why are we? What are we? These are two important questions.

What are the results and possibilities of our differences? Not just those which negatively impact us?

I can only conclude that it's not a random result.

Your and my understanding of free is projected from the internal necessity.



Quote:
Full distribution -
exclusively selfish turns ostensibly selfless.
Quote:
"It is in our conscious experience that we can liberate ourselves from the deterministic process; this implies an act of creation, for the gaps in the casual sequence necessary for freedom can be filled only by making something that is not there. Carried to the logical conclusion, this line of thought leads us to conceive a level in eternity from which causality has disappeared entirely and is replaced by a situation in which free creative activity is the only law."


John Godolphin ( JG) Bennett


It can happen, that inner freedom realises the stupidity of selling that which can lead to it.

Check it out!! One of my favourite authors.

http://www.jgbennett.net/


Quote:
Would we prefer the illusion that we should strive to differentiate ourselves from one another, or the truth that we can all be as happy as we innately desire, if we throw off the delusion.
The devil is in the details. I seem to bedevil myself with fears. I remember this story about an evil djinn who would torment a man and the man went to a wise man who told him to give the evil djinn something to do so that he wouldn't be able to bother him. The man went home and told the djinn to go and plow and plant his fields, and one minute later the evil djinn returned saying it was done and continued to bedevil the man, so the man gave him the task of building a kingdom and within a few minutes the evil djinn was back the task complete and the man's torment continued. Finally the man went out of his house and planted a long stick in the ground and told the evil djinn to run up and down the stick until the man found something else for him to do. The evil djinn couldn't stand such repetition and fled never to be heard from again.

I need to find the stick I guess.
~*~



Quote:
Current rotten nonADD society drives us towards individualization -
attempts to differentiate ourselves from others through selfish ownership of $tuff and non$ense -
It is intereresting that many of us will never have to take a vow of poverty as it's thrust upon us.

Quote:
- individuation involves the understanding that none of that matters.

~*~
That's so true, because as much as we sense an underlying individuality, and it is there, it can't ever be as long as we are doing what we should do it's a prescription for madness and a proscription against identity.

Quote:
Diametrically opposed - where individualization is the primitive of the two desires.
primitive? hmmm Could it be the result of unity? a sort of spin off? I mean the reality not the urge. The urge itself seems to be primitive and unrealised in any pure sense because the repertoire of uniqueness has been exhausted long ago? Like a baby who does not know of it's own seperateness until it unifies with the false and then it knows alienation only in reverse.

Quote:
Windows Vista breaking under the strain.
NonADD breaking under the strain.

~*~
Yeah, it's sad because there are enough broken people in the world. Counter-control is not well understood.

Quote:
The evolutionary drive appears to put in place novel structures which grow uncontrollably (cf virus) - which upon reaching a certain threshold - 'collapse down' into more efficient enclosure (cf first life).

Efficient autonomy - the unifying drive is the pursuit of liberty (freedom).

~*~
Usually accompanied by a great deal of pain. To die before you die. If ennui were fuel non-NT's might be able to light the world. Maybe it is.

Quote:
Quantity to Quality.

Quality relates to reprise in geometry (the torus - Holy patterns (reality)).

~*~
quality... it's a strange word. Something that stands out... as individual and yet is part of a recurring pattern.



Quote:
Summarising
Quote:
-
Quote:
a generational improvement in quality of operating system built over 'fully distributed' architecture.
A clearer picture of necessity?
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  #8  
Old 04-12-10, 04:17 AM
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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGBennett.net
Bennett began his training school in 1971, aimed at giving his students the tools and methods necessary to develop both conscience and the ability to act on it.
He's right, exactly as Barliman describes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barliman
The individuation happens all by itself, if we have the nerve to just explore what interests us.
The drive to explore what interests us is buried by the attraction for exclusively selfish wealth which, with time in its worship, deviates our focus ever further away from the ability to intuit what it is that interests us.

We're interested in taking in the view from each side and each floor of a skyscraper and find ourselves trapped in the first room we come to -
- eager to ensure that we have the 'decor' just right
- before moving on.

We change, the decor in that room is required to change to keep up with our changing 'eye'
- we believe we're busy and don't venture out.
The pre-occupation which the room offers us counters the fear of exploring others; there's always that 'final' change to make.

There's a person in each room of the building behaving similarly; each room is progressively shifted away from its default intuitive structure (of an insulated box with wooden floors, windows with wooden blinds and 2 electrical and water pipes in and out) - into {unintuitve,non-standard}; so how come something so easy is made so overly complicated

- we all know why
Quote:
'I'm an expert you know'
His chest puffed out in pride.

We take a trip to another's flat - and are confused by the structures which they've put in place within it - and are relieved to return home.

We resolve not to accept any invitations to visit, elsewhere, in future.

Honest moral scrutiny fails at the hands of poorly chosen language and bad architecture; we're trapped in our boxes unable to leave - the stability of knowing that, at least we have a roof over our heads countering the fear of exploration
- the fear of exploration - our innate drive.

Quote:
... ... at least we have a roof over our heads
And then subprime; home repossession rates increase.

People then realise that they haven't even the ability to imagine the view out through any other window.

The entire block is evicted and the property deeds are shared by the politician, lawyer and banker, the corrupt triumviracy which knew that this day would come
- all they needed do
was
wait.

A global one~wage & communal ownership of land/property makes it all go away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile View Post
It’s going to be interesting in a few years to go back and look at the statistics on the homeless over about a fifty year period.
~*~

The whole building's 'gotta' come down' - so internally inconsistently construed; so falsely, logically internally inconsistently construed that the partitions walls separating academic disciplines can no longer be removed.

~*~

We need to reconstruct a model for reality which begins with the state of 'space:time' which existed pre-Big Bang and which 15-20 billion years later, regenerates reality (as we know it) using a defined (simple) geometric evolutionary pattern.

Most importantly - the geometric pattern if reflected onto social structure will show that we're destined to make the transition from 'local mind' to group mind' (to the conscience ruling our behaviour) ... ...

the social behaviour of the ant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGBennett.net
Bennett began his training school in 1971, aimed at giving his students the tools and methods necessary to develop both conscience and the ability to act on it.
where

Quote:
... ... the tendency towards grasping and self-centeredness will alter spontaneously in the direction of increased selflessness.
All we need do (to see where we're going) is to observe the religious recluse within a
Quote:
'and the meek
Quote:
one~ or no~wage
shall inherit the earth'
monastery; the religious aspect can be pushed to one side - the important observation is of their heightened social conscience.

We can't all win the lottery, can all be as happy as we (actually) want to be; the peculiar paradox which surrounds ADHD - the awakening feels (the waking meditative state) more like falling (the non-linear daydream) asleep.

~s~
Quote:
In the more recent study, brain activity was studied both when the meditators’ brains were in a neutral state and while they cultivated unconditional loving-kindness (metta) and compassion. For the beginners there were only minor changes in brain activity between the neutral state and the meditation on lovingkindness, but for the experienced meditators there were massive changes — the degree of change being correlated with the number of hours of meditation each individual had done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
The metta:-)model web
' ... the degree of change being correlated with the number of hours of meditation each individual had done.'

Imagine the consequences to one's mind/brain if every waking hour is spent in this state.

~ADD~
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  #9  
Old 04-12-10, 04:58 AM
SB_UK SB_UK is offline
 
 

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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
kaos and control
People chase the 'next big thing' without worrying about whether it's compatible with existing technology.

Sure - it's nice
--- though ---
Will we have the energy to power it in 5 years time?
Can it be upgraded?
Can it be repaired?
Can it be recycled?
Will it be redundant (swept aside) by new technology before the year is out?

So - you don't actually care, do you?
As long as you make your money.

And who gets to clean the mess up.

No - your products can't be recycled can they ?
... ... the product cycle which 'rewards' first to market ensures that environmental concerns are spurned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Who
Besides - who wants a cure when there's more money to be made in thousands of palliatives.
The fundamental problem with capitalism -
variable remuneration
- quantity and not quality is rewarded.

~*~

The species is driving itself offa' cliff because of the inner (primitive) drive (which first mind brings) (individualization) to 'make it'.

There is no such thing as 'making it' on an individual level (the drive is simply an artefact of the human developmental cycle - of finding a mate); - we either make it as a species or fail.

The problem we face is in reaching this understanding - in listening to the words even though they may not seem to feel right; whether they feel as though they're right is determined by the stage which we're at in our developmental life cycle.

The primitive desire (original sin) is exclusively selfish in nature -
the mind introduces evil; at first mind comes evil
- of course there is no such thing as evil
- until the mind passes this stage though, divisive it shall be.

The divisive mind blames; wisdom bears responsibility.

We're hardwired to over-exuberant virulent, cancerous growth (on an individual level)
- a fundamental aspect of the evolutionary process (without that innate drive to grow - growth would not occur)
- luckily though we contain a second set of directives
(group survival)
- a fundamental aspect of the evolutionary process (without that innate drive to tame growth - overgrowth would occur).

An evolutionary process which can be characterized as simply as:

{to grow
tame growth}n
->- leading to ->-
evolution of mathematical complexity.

where generalized onto modern man, we observe the progression of

growth (original sin required)
wisdom

wisdom
- which we can only access if we decommission
Quote:
Originally Posted by the mechanism
self-directed education, scrutiny of the nature of reality, reaching an understanding of the world around ... ...
the exclusively selfish drive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barliman
The individuation happens all by itself, if we have the nerve to just explore what interests us.
How?

one~wage alongside communal ownership of land/property (socialism) with capitalism (abstraction layer separated) operating using a corporation only currency which values items based on {environmental,ecological} factors.

Socialism ensuring that all people are equal - with capitalism ensuring that people have something to do with their time; two separate electronic currencies - where never the twain shall meet.

Really very simple - remove the attraction of materialism by ensuring that no person can earn any more than any other on any level -
- and the latter (higher) directive (of tendency towards species friendly behaviour) will leap to the fore.
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  #10  
Old 04-12-10, 06:10 AM
SB_UK SB_UK is offline
 
 

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Re: Kaos and Control

It helps, when attempting to work out an optimal structure for society
- when we realise how little we need to live as well as we desire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natural,sustainable,recyclable
of an insulated box with wooden floors, windows with wooden blinds and 2 electrical and water pipes in and out ... ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by natural,sustainable,recyclable
cotton, organic food, water
Set up a system kinda' like
Quote:
Originally Posted by natural,sustainable,recyclable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Kolkata_Wetlands
in all centres worldwide

Quote:
Originally Posted by natural,sustainable,recyclable
and an electrical dynamo which people can plop their bicycle onto and use within the comfort of their own home or garden to feed power into the grid.
- and we're there :-).

(noting more for personal health and helping people to grow comfortable on a cycle rather than solving the imminent energy crisis
- though (actually) why ever not?)

What do we need?
A light bulb, computer, freezer and microwave.

Cycling - 300 watts.

~*~

Noting that there's a sting in the tail - the pre-ADD mind seeks to make phenomenally complex systems - where the developed ADD mind is happiest looking outta' the window
- it's really very interesting how far we're forcing a societal structure upon ourselves which diverges from our actual human developmental course.

Why ? bother planning to inhabit the stars - when the population growth curve appears to show that we're due to be thrown into 'reverse' soon
... ... will not outgrow the planet
(as we appear to fear we will) -
- can have the planet which we desire here,now
- need not concern ourselves with impossible dreams when we have all we need right here, right now.

All that's required is insight into the evolutionary psychological nature of Christianity's (and Islam's ?) original sin.

~*~

Concentrate on software development and we can separate ourselves away from needing to use limiting resources.

~*~

The mind is ready to see through itself - it wants to be stimulated -
we can attain our stimulation without needing to resort to a reduction in any limiting resource.

~*~

Our greatest enemy - the innate, primitive drive (original sin) (individualization)
- the immature pre-wise pre-cursor mind which wants to eat the World all on its lonesome.

~*~

The private corporation is driven by the same over exuberance which characterizes the ebola virus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
Kenneth Lay
The guy in the suit on the table at the front of the share holder meeting is not your friend.

We're rather in need of people who seek money for their own exclusive use, to develop some level of personal understanding; the individual who seeks material pleasures for his exclusive self is being driven by the lower innate desire which religion has tried its 'darndest' to bring to our attention.

~*~

No reason to be depressed about the nature of original sin -
every reason to simply understand the necessary (for species continuation) illusion which it weaves

- the evolutionary process put us in place
- has plenty more in store

at least if we're willing to pay attention to its underlying nature
and
allow it the opportunity to continue.

Its underlying nature - to make things better (through our eyes).

The stairway to Heaven, the religious metaphor holds, the fundamentalist's world view
thrown out
... ... as we gain an understanding of the nature of words.

There are two levels of semantics - linear (nonADD) and non-linear (developed ADD)
- where religion is written in non-linear metaphor.

The fundamentalist cannot understand this language.

Education (*personal*, self-directed) has the key; others can't do it for you; a fundamental switch in educational philosophy is required from generic aggressive didactic to Master-Pupil customized constructivist.

What's ? the point of telling anybody anything unless we are sure that they've incorporated the information into their own minds, and in the appropriate way.
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  #11  
Old 04-12-10, 06:30 AM
SB_UK SB_UK is offline
 
 

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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ View Post
The fundamentalist cannot understand this language.
There's only one division which separates people within our species.

The immature and mature mind.

The immature mind has an overly simplistic worldview and is capable of resorting to violence in pushing their divisive agenda; tribal warfare ensures.

The mature mind (educated immature mind) which sees through the illusion of that former state ... ... of 'first' mind.

~*~

It's remarkable that I appear to be able to repeat this idea in post after post and not grow tired of the repetition; it feels a little as though the idea needs repetition until the feeling that it needs repetition (because no counter argument within the shared species mind any longer exists) dissipates.

That last point may not make sense; I'm trying to suggest that human motivation on the group (and not individual level) is driven by the state of the group (shared) mind
- that the group mind is a converging structure -
and that convergence in elements of the structure define motivation (at least on that level).

That the motivation to investigate ideas (on that level) vanishes when convergence occurs within that sector in the mind (on that level).



Quote:
Originally Posted by JGBennett.net
demiurge
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  #12  
Old 04-13-10, 04:50 AM
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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barliman View Post
Ginniebean,
I think Original Sin is one of the most puzzling doctrines of all. I have done my head in trying to figure it out for decades.
hmmm I'll send you a pm.. it's really not that difficult.


Quote:
You know I see Zen as a little like love. I always knew that I could never get into a relationship of any worth by going out and trying. I sort of had to sidle up and approach it from the corner of my eye. I think Zen was a good antidote to my intellectual pretensions- it threw me back on myself, and pointed out what a complete prat I was
HAH! I don't think this could be said any better! Make it two prats.


Quote:
I remember hearing it said that we should practice compassion on ourselves first, so we know whether what we are practicing is any good and worth passing on. That seems quite smart to me.

I'm not making fun, I heard on cats and dogs first.. they don't have a cerebral cortex to interfere so in that sense are more finely emotionally tuned.

com pati ion
unified suffering with
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  #13  
Old 04-13-10, 10:01 AM
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Re: Kaos and Control

The Lord's my shepherd (German)


.| -- horizontal
v
e
rtical

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginniebean View Post
I'm not making fun, I heard on cats and dogs first.. they don't have a cerebral cortex to interfere so in that sense are more finely emotionally tuned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-boy View Post
I recently read a fascinating new hypothesis about the relationship between humans and dogs. Recent molecular evidence pushes the domestication of dogs back enormously. Originally it was assumed they were domesticated about 14 thousand years ago. Then they pushed it back to 40 thousand years ago. Now the molecular evidence pushes it back to right around the emergence, or just before the emergence of anatomically modern humans. In short they were probably with us before we became "Modern".

More interesting still, there is evidence to support the idea that the presence of dogs influenced human evolutionary development as much as we influenced theirs.

Domestic animals typically have some brain shrinkage compared to their wild ancestors. Oddly enough in relatively recent history (sometime in the range of ten to 80 thousand years ago) modern human brains shrank as well. Domestic dogs underwent a ten to thirty percent shrinkage (depending on breed). Human brains shrank by ten percent (more than being more skeletally gracile should account for). The interesting part is in WHERE the shrinkage occured. In dogs and later domestics the shrinkage occurs in the frontal lobes. In humans the shrinkage occured in the midbrain. Which is where we do most of the initial processing of sensory information.

This is exactly what one would expect to see if our relationship with dogs was symbiotic. They literally entered into this relationship with us of their own accord (as the first humans to associate with the wolves that would become dogs likely did not have true language yet and were on a much more even footing with wolves intellectually). In exchange for our specialization in frontal lobe function they took up the slack in mid brain and sensory function.

Humans and dogs both have remarkable abilities to read each other. Dogs can, for example interpret human facial expressions. Even wolves raised in captivity can't do this. Humans in turn have very little difficulty getting the gist of dog communications.

Fascinating stuff.
Quote:
Now the molecular evidence pushes it back to right around the emergence, or just before the emergence of anatomically modern humans.
Man's best friend - I'm never more than a metre from mine.
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Old 04-13-10, 10:26 AM
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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginniebean View Post
com pati ion
unified suffering with
leading to unification of existence; coming home.
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Old 04-13-10, 10:52 AM
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Re: Kaos and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barliman View Post
In the end living in accordance with “The Tao” or The Great Way” or our “Buddha Nature” or “God's Will” are all much the same thing.
-->Mmm, as a recovering christian now-atheist taoist (philosophical taoist), I'd have to disagree here.

There's a fundamental difference between God's "Will" - your actions have a predetermined "right" course - and the Tao - your actions determine your course; or your course determines your actions.

God's will can be accepted or denied. The Tao is neither accepted or denied - it just is.
__________________
If you want to nourish a bird, you should let it live any way it chooses. Creatures differ because they have different likes and dislikes. Therefore the sages never require the same ability from all creatures. . . concepts of right should be founded on what is suitable. The true saint leaves wisdom to the ants, takes a cue from the fishes, and leaves willfulness to the sheep. - chuang-tzu
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