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  #46  
Old 07-01-12, 05:00 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Thanks for the reply mctavish, I suppose by anomaly I meant an extreme fluctuation in recorded scores, especially observed through your personal experiences. Have you observed anyone fluctuating in scores drastically, when comparing medicated and non-medicated performance? Some here on this forum have cited seemingly absurd increases or decreases (though I suppose they can occur, and they would be statistical aberrations), and it makes me curious is all.
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  #47  
Old 07-01-12, 05:14 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNCG View Post
Ana,

If you are interested in the genetic origins of low IQ in ADHD, a study by Kunsti et al (2004) showed that ADHD and low IQ co-occurrence has genetic origins, as genes that influence both ADHD and IQ accounted for 86% of the phenotypic correlation between ADHD symptom scores and IQ, and 100% of the phenotypic correlation between ADHD research diagnosis and IQ.

cf: Kunsti J, Eley TC, et al (2004) "Co-occurrence of ADHD and low IQ has Genetic Origins". Am J Med Genet B Neuropsychiatry Genet 124:41-7.
Interesting.

I think that reason this ADHD and IQ issue keeps coming up is that a lot of us have taken the WAIS as part of our diagnosis, and are therefore well aquainted with our own IQ scores.

It's a bit difficult for some of us with high IQ scores to imagine that our IQ would likely be even higher without ADHD.

Because I have a high IQ score and ADHD, it's natural for me to want to form a causal relationship between the two- "I'm 'smarter' than most people, and I have ADHD, which most people don't have, therefore my ADHD must have something to do with my high IQ."

When I think this way, it's hard for me to see how my ADHD negatively impacts my IQ. I do have an IQ score that is higher than the great majority of the population- and IQ scores only measure where you sit relative to the rest of the population.

So in order to really see how ADHD negatively impacts my IQ, I have to ignore how I compare to the rest of population. I should be comparing myself to people who test in my percentile and 5-10 points above. When I do that, I can easily see how my ADHD impares my intellect.

My dad and his siblings are all extremely bright, and they all seem to have ADHD. It's possible that our intelligence and our ADHD are coming from the same genetic source, and without that bit of genetic material we might not have ADHD and be less intelligent. However, if it had been possible to inheret everything but the ADHD, we would a bunch of flippin' geniuses.
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  #48  
Old 07-01-12, 05:28 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
I think that reason this ADHD and IQ issue keeps coming up is that a lot of us have taken the WAIS as part of our diagnosis, and are therefore well aquainted with our own IQ scores.
This is a fair point, and makes me think of something. My IQ score comes with vast discrepancies, I have an extremely rare cognitive profile. My psychiatrist believed, after assessing many things, that I had a "severe dopamine shortage". Without getting into what else he told me, dopamine supposedly is implicated in learning.
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Old 07-01-12, 05:39 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalNomad View Post
This is a fair point, and makes me think of something. My IQ score comes with vast discrepancies, I have an extremely rare cognitive profile. My psychiatrist believed, after assessing many things, that I had a "severe dopamine shortage". Without getting into what else he told me, dopamine supposedly is implicated in learning.
this has me curios, if im not mistaken we had similar symptoms and comorbids

so im wondering what about your cognitive profile is rare?
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  #50  
Old 07-01-12, 05:48 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

So this thread got me thinking about my own thought process post-diagnosis. I was very quick to attribute certain "positives" to my ADHD. For instance- I've always "fudged" my through multiple choice exams by examining the test writer's logic. I considered this ability a "gift" given to me by my ADHD. What I failed to realize, is that any person with an IQ score similar to mine would be able to do this. The difference is, they don't have to do this when they take an exam, they can simply rely on the crystalized knowledge they learned in class.

My ADHD impairs my ability to develop crystalized knowledge, so to cope I have put a great amount of effort into mastering the art of BSing. So yes, I am likely a better BS'er than an intellectual peer without ADHD- but that is only because they have not needed to put the same amount of effort into developing this "skill".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalNomad View Post
This is a fair point, and makes me think of something. My IQ score comes with vast discrepancies, I have an extremely rare cognitive profile. My psychiatrist believed, after assessing many things, that I had a "severe dopamine shortage". Without getting into what else he told me, dopamine supposedly is implicated in learning.
Mine has great discrepancies as well. My scores seem to perfectly match a typical ADHD profile.
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  #51  
Old 07-01-12, 07:50 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

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Originally Posted by daveddd View Post
this has me curios, if im not mistaken we had similar symptoms and comorbids

so im wondering what about your cognitive profile is rare?
High verbal, decent working memory, low performance (spatial, processing speed). I also have anxiety and depression issues, and it probably wasn't the best idea to chug a Mountain Dew before testing. I was also dreading the event.

Overall, I scored average and the psychologist who scored me claimed I wasn't performing at my true ability, our last appointment left certain discussions unresolved, so he seemed to suggest a potential flattering increase, but that seems statistically unlikely.

I'm sure I'll catch quite a bit of heat for this, but I know anxiety, amount of sleep, and motivation drastically effects my ability to perform. For instance, I took a college essay test to evaluate English abilities, the first time I scored so low I was put in a basic language skills class (I don't think I met the minimum word requirement). When I took the test several days later, I scored into English 121, going up several tiers because I was more rested and less anxious. How that would translate into increased IQ test performance I have no idea.

Oddly enough, the first time I took a reading comprehension test from that college I scored 5 points away from perfection. So, I can obviously focus on things that are much more interesting in my mind, however I'm still brought down by doubt over my abilities.

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  #52  
Old 07-01-12, 09:11 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

What would be the relationship between,

General Intelligence and Emotional Intelligence,

IQ and EQ?

For me stress is the decisive factor in my mindset.

Anxiety Stress,

interferes with my judgement.

How does this situation,

fit into the score?

The environment ,(proper accommodations?)

"Point of performance"-Dr.Barkley
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  #53  
Old 07-01-12, 10:09 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Anxiety and stress do negatively impact brain functioning, but not as profoundly as ADHD or developmental disorders.

There have been a lot of animal studies that look at the relationship between stress and the brain.
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  #54  
Old 07-01-12, 10:31 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by ana futura View Post
Anxiety and stress do negatively impact brain functioning, but not as profoundly as ADHD or developmental disorders.

There have been a lot of animal studies that look at the relationship between stress and the brain.

What is the relationship between ADHD and anxiety,

if the person has both?

In regards to intelligence test scores.

When accommodations are provided,

verses when no accommodations provided?

I am sure there would be different scores,

based on environmental conditions that promote development,

and environmental conditions that don't.

In regards to the relationship between ADHD and Anxiety,

and a person writing a test.


Developed skills might show that some people with ADHD don't get anxiety when writing tests.

But I think most get anxiety about something.

I think this is do to individually developed acquired strengths and weaknesses not acquired,

Especially during the critical time of development,

when these systems like emotional regulation are developing shape for the very first time as an infant.(pre and post natal).

Example I have very good hand eye coordination because I played a lot with lego.
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  #55  
Old 07-01-12, 10:38 PM
eclectic beagle eclectic beagle is offline
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by ana futura View Post
Anxiety and stress do negatively impact brain functioning, but not as profoundly as ADHD or developmental disorders.

There have been a lot of animal studies that look at the relationship between stress and the brain.
Not to be argumentative, but I've actually heard the opposite from psychologists. That is, anxiety and depression are more of an impact than ADHD itself, could be wrong though.
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  #56  
Old 07-01-12, 10:39 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Just remember that anecdotal isn't statistically significant.

Having given (literally) thousands of IQ tests over the years,

my impression is that this is a combination of ADHD related

Executive Function impairments, and the nature of the test

themselves.

Included in the latter, are the incredibly small sample sizes for

people with actual ADHD.

That alone deletes the statistical inferential power.

Hope that helps.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)
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  #57  
Old 07-01-12, 10:44 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalNomad View Post
Not to be argumentative, but I've actually heard the opposite from psychologists. That is, anxiety and depression are more of an impact than ADHD itself, could be wrong though.
An excerpt from chapter 14 of ADHD In Adults: What the Science Says by Russell R. Barkley, Kevin A. Murphy, and Mariellen Fischer:

Quote:
In this book we have presented one of the most comprehensive reviews and original research reports published to date on adults with ADHD concerning their symptoms, impairments, and adaptive functioning in many of the important domains of major life activities. We did so while juxtaposing the findings for clinic-referred adults with ADHD against those of clinic-referred children with ADHD followed into adulthood.

Our sample sizes in both studies provided sufficient statistical power to detect differences among the groups of at least low-to-moderate effect sizes or greater, ensuring that we were likely to identify those differences that would be robust and also clinically meaningful. By using two control groups in the UMASS Study, we were also able to report not only on the differences between adults with ADHD and general community samples typically reported in previous studies but also on differences that may be most specific to ADHD in adults relative to adults seen at the same clinic who are not diagnosed with ADHD but rather with other disorders.

The Milwaukee Study contrasted its adults currently having ADHD against those who, having grown up with ADHD, appeared no longer to have the disorder at age-27 follow-up. Our results relied not only on the self-reports of the adult participants but also on reports from significant others, clinician ratings, employers, official educational and DMV archives, and psychological tests. This extensive battery of measures gave us a multi-informant and multisource perspective on the disorder and its impact on major life activities. It allowed us to conclude that ADHD in adults is a far more impairing disorder across multiple domains of major life activities than are most other disorders likely to be seen in outpatient psychiatric clinics, such as anxiety disorders, or mood disorders.

Across all of our results, one thing seems abundantly clear—ADHD in adults is a significantly impairing disorder. It is associated with numerous difficulties in virtually every domain of major life activity studied here. Whether one studies functioning in education, occupation, social relationships, sexual activities, dating and marriage, parenting and offspring psychological morbidity, crime and drug abuse, health and related lifestyles, financial management, or driving, ADHD can be found to produce diverse and serious impairments. Indeed, its impairments are more substantial than are those seen in other disorders most likely to present to outpatient mental health clinics, such as anxiety disorders, dysthymia, and major depression, among others. This is obvious in the numerous differences we found between adults with ADHD and our Clinical control group.

The disorder also deserves its status as one distinct from other forms of psychopathology or developmental disabilities. Its symptoms and impairments are not due simply to general psychopathology. They stand out from other forms of psychopathology in numerous respects. Statements to the effect that ADHD is not a valid disorder, is a myth created by mercenary pharmaceutical companies or mental health professionals for sheer commercial gain, or is indistinct from the other disorders with which it may be associated are not only wrong, they are egregiously so.

Numerous differences emerged in the context of these two studies between those with ADHD and general population (Community) controls and between those with ADHD and Clinical control groups that make such assertions moribund. To continue to make such statements in the face of such overwhelming evidence to the contrary is to show either a stunning scientific illiteracy or reflect planned religious or political propaganda intended to deceive the uninformed or unsuspecting general public.
I broke the two larger paragraphs up into smaller paragraphs, and the book is filled with a lot of rather sciency talk, but chapter 14 presents conclusions in fairly accessible language.
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  #58  
Old 07-01-12, 10:57 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

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Originally Posted by MentalNomad View Post
Not to be argumentative, but I've actually heard the opposite from psychologists. That is, anxiety and depression are more of an impact than ADHD itself, could be wrong though.

I think it would depend on the person,

especially if the sensitivity is addressed in infancy.

I am not a professional.

The way I understand,

in my own words,

during the pre and postnatal time of development.

A hypersensitive child will develop a more touchy, high strung, anxious self regulation system.

Due to being hypersensitive.

The development of less sensitive child will not be effected to the same degree,

during early development.

There doesn't even need to be anything considered abnormal,

for a very hypersensitive child to develop anxiety,

related to inherited hypersensitivity.


There is also the other side of the coin,

where some children are not born abnormally sensitive,

but are exposed to extremely "anxious" situations.

.During critical period of development.

.
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  #59  
Old 07-01-12, 11:01 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortune View Post
An excerpt from chapter 14 of ADHD In Adults: What the Science Says by Russell R. Barkley, Kevin A. Murphy, and Mariellen Fischer:

I broke the two larger paragraphs up into smaller paragraphs, and the book is filled with a lot of rather sciency talk, but chapter 14 presents conclusions in fairly accessible language.
Ah, I was incorrect then. I was merely going off of what professionals told me, I suppose I gave them the benefit of the doubt rather than doing the proper homework. Anyway, I have ADHD and a very high level of anxiety, so for me the distinction doesn't mean much as I'm afflicted with both (as many ADHDers tend to be).

mctavish,

True anecdotal isn't necessarily statistically significant, from what you're saying I'm understanding that ADHD makes statistical predictions a bit difficult as far as IQ is concerned? I'm just concerned with whether or not a psychologist would take an absurd rise in score seriously, or not (in general, one can't account for every psychologist).
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Old 07-01-12, 11:36 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita View Post
I think it would depend on the person,

especially if the sensitivity is addressed in infancy.

I am not a professional.

The way I understand,

in my own words,

during the pre and postnatal time of development.

A hypersensitive child will develop a more touchy, high strung, anxious self regulation system.

Due to being hypersensitive.

The development of less sensitive child will not be effected to the same degree,

during early development.

There doesn't even need to be anything considered abnormal,

for a very hypersensitive child to develop anxiety,

related to inherited hypersensitivity.


There is also the other side of the coin,

where some children are not born abnormally sensitive,

but are exposed to extremely "anxious" situations.

.During critical period of development.

.
ive been reading about hypersensitive infants quite a bit lately

along with infants that switch from hypo to hyper sensitivity in their first year


it is interesting how many separate disorders (axis 1 and 2) are correlated with that infant temperament style

the disorders all have quite a bit in common , maybe other factors contribute to different defense styles that are the difference in the diagnosis
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