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  #1  
Old 05-29-05, 06:18 PM
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Part 2 What is ADD (AD/HD)? Why does it exist?

In the first part of the Evolution of AD/HD I explained my view that it was initially a genetic spread function.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18053

It is still being selected for in the human species.


The population starts to increase allowing for more mixing of tribal groups... culture started to promote the genetic spread function through arranged marriages between tribes and trade of the more "reproductionally valuable gender" (female). Patriarchy starts to take over as the dominant cultural paradigm. Hierarchy becomes more defined and roles increase. Lack of order is shunned.


1. AD/HD men and women start to lose their functionality in the "genetic spread" realm.
2. Because of the lack of culture processing, there is processing capability that is unused.
3. Boredom leads to hyperfocus
4. New technologies are created

AD/HD (IR) technology/culture Feedback system

a) Brain power developed for cultural processing gives the (AD/HD) extra-cultural individual more processing power for creation of art, music and technology.
b) Art, music and technology lead to more complex culture that leads to a).

5. Culture becomes more complex due to the technological advance of two things
a. The domestication of the horse
b. Agriculture
6. Smaller tribes become larger and stationary as villages form
7. Culture "breeds" humans for cultural complexity. Speeding up "brain power evolution".
8. With the increasing complexity of culture, more "mental processing power" becomes available to the "AD/HD" Brain
9. More technology is produced.
10. Dwellings, food and water systems become more complex because of the technology
11. Cities form
12. More roles and groups per individual leads to a processing power increase.
13. Technology allows for governmental and complex religious structures
14. Structured education is formed in order to support the weight of highly complex culture involving many sub-cultures
15. De selection increases for individuals that are questioners
16 Structural systems tend to be brittle and unstable.
17. Extra-cultural (AD/HD) individuals find a place in the volatility. Selection continues.
18. Extra-cultural (AD/HD) individuals are increasingly creating art, technology and dissent
19. Dominant structures start to label extra-culturals (AD/HD) heretics
20. Culturally biased science starts to see socially less functional individuals as disordered.
21. High levels of structure needed to keep complex rule, roles and governmental systems creates less functional situations for the extra-cultral (AD/HD)


This is where we sit now. A type of cognition that is less than functional in the structured society. This takes new ways of using our minds to increase our functionality and mental health. We still have a valuable role... In a sense we drive the culture.

So we need to be happy with driving the bus... not trying to get into the seats in the back. There is no room for us and the driver is needed
In AD/HD we process the world through a highly context dependant mind. The descriptions and predictions of what that entails is next
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Old 05-30-05, 02:15 AM
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chain can you explain #20 more. Please
I'm not sure I understand that one.
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Old 05-30-05, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stori813
chain can you explain #20 more. Please
I'm not sure I understand that one.
With 20... you have the field of psychology not removing culture as a factor when it starts declaring disorders...culture or lack thereof is a factor. It is hard for psychology to understand that there are people who do not process culture in the same way.

Also psychology is very gender biased... they do not see how women can be of certain types. For example until very recently very few women were dx'd with ADD... Women are almost viewed above disorder in psychology OR they have their own special set of disorders. I personally see that as silly and a sign that psychology as a science is heavily culturally biased. Observation through the filters of our culture.

Culturally biased = cultural agenda = bad science

IMHO

There ARE plenty of brilliant psychologists who are seem to be seeing this problem... I am not pointing the finger... just in general when humans look at themselves... we like to bestow upon ourselves some special status (we are above animals and nature). It may seem that I am doing this with ADD but in the end it is simply a functional type that was chosen for and has a purpose... it only seems like status because culture assigns positive values to many of the things that ADD seems to be filled with.
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Old 06-03-05, 12:16 PM
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Couple questions:

First, why is it that Europeans have a lot less incidence of AD/HD?

Second, why are males roughly 3 times more likely to develop AD/HD?

Also, let me add this, it appears your theories are soley based on genetic causes. Am I correct? I personally feel that my enviornment also played a big role in my ADD development and I was predisposed for developing ADD like symptoms. My father was a physically abusive man and experiencing that stress on a daily basis contributed greatly to my eventual inability to process correctly. There is most certainly a connection between prefrontal cortex function and abuse/trauma.

http://www.lawandpsychiatry.com/html/hippocampus.htm

The above page links abuse/trauma with decreased funtioning of the hippocampus and lack of overall blood flow to the PFC, which are the same markers of many ADD sufferers, too. In other words, isn't AD/HD just a form of brain damage, genetic or otherwise? According to this article I would probably be labeled PTSD , but we share many of the same symptoms as those who are Limbic ADD. I personally feel that PTSD is a form of ADD that is induced through life experiences and traumas.

I'm new here, so just trying to add the perspective of those of us who feel our enviornment contributed greatly to the onset of ADD symptoms. Btw, my ADD didn't show up until puberty.
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Old 06-03-05, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxima
I'm new here, so just trying to add the perspective of those of us who feel our enviornment contributed greatly to the onset of ADD symptoms. Btw, my ADD didn't show up until puberty.
Sorry to hear about your traumatic past. I hope you are coming to terms with those events. There is a book I have on hold at the library, "Dare to Forgive", by Dr. Ned Hallowell. Dr. Hallowell is one of the leading experts on ADHD.

The DSM lists one of the main criteria as :
  • Some hyperactive-impulsive or inattentive symptoms that caused impairment were present before age 7 years.
You had mentioned your symptoms did not show up until puberty (12-13 years old?). I would agree that you fit the diagnosis of PTSD, which carry a lot of the same symptoms.

Myself and my son fit this criteria. According to my wife, my son exhibited the hyper-acitve portion in utero.

I also can also see that the effects of PTSD can permenantly alter the brain causing ADHD symptoms.

Have you read Driven to Distraction (1994) or Delivered from Distraction (2005) by Dr. Ned Hallowell? If you haven't please try to read them. In my opinion (and many others), they are the best books published on ADHD. If you can totally relate to the books and they answer a lot of questions as to "why you are the way you are", then this will reinforce the ADHD diagnosis.


Chain,

Are you taking into account these situations in your model?
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Old 06-03-05, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chain
Also psychology is very gender biased... they do not see how women can be of certain types.

the end it is simply a functional type that was chosen for and has a purpose...
So, you believe that psychology as a discipline is better at defining the workings of the male mind, because the discipline doesn't have a grasp of the separate 'functional cognitive types' that women are characterised by?

But if ADHD "is an example of a functional cognitive type", then does that mean that each individual could potentially have lots and lots of different functional cognitive types?

SB.
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Old 06-03-05, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SB_UK
So, you believe that psychology as a discipline is better at defining the workings of the male mind, because the discipline doesn't have a grasp of the separate 'functional cognitive types' that women are characterised by.

But if ADHD "is an example of a functional cognitive type", then does that mean that each individual could potentially have lots and lots of different functional cognitive types?

SB.
Psychology is biased by the culural myths that women are completely different than men that they have different levels of disorder. I think the differences are there but they are minimal. In culture, gender role plays an important part. There are cognitive types that process culture and the actual "look" of the "symptoms" is different (but the it is really the same type) Male NPD tends to show masculine and flashy... female NPD shows as Muenchhausen more commonly. In my theory NPD is extreme in its culture processing... same number of ADDers in men and women... simple genetics.

The brains are different but not in that way (Women may lean slightly closer towards CM... but ADD is almost full CM.. the diffences are not so big with us)

The cognitive types I define are base. We are genetically predisposed for a "type". It is really no more different than I am a human and not a bird (both functional in different ways but very clearly different) I cannot be 10 feet tall, I was born 5'7". I do have the type I call IRCM... I will never be ER...ER is a survival function and I have a different one. Birds fly and I walk. All different but not that different

functional cognitive type = survival strategies

Now the big question is... do I believe that IRCM is special... yes I do... because I am that and have to be what I am.

Do I feel IRCM is better than the other survival strategies? No... I don't.... in the end all we are is a degree of order. no disorders just different kinds of orders.

Do I feel that the other strategies are functional for the other cognitive types... can be... may not be. It depends on the individual.

We are all different and all alike... I am just saying that the differences do not come out of thin air or are some strange malevolent diseases foisted on us by unknown forces.

Can we be several base cognitives types at once? No... can we switch cognitive types? yes... it happens commonly and is considered "disordered"

Can we be members of multiple differing cognitive types...yes (Birds have feet... people have feet... we are footed animals)

Can an ERHM person become IRCM... yes through neurotransmitters... through volition...no

Can all cognitive types find self? Possibly... depends on the ROI
Can we all be enlightened.... yes! Do we all have CM? Yes... all humans have CM... self... emotion (It is hard for NPD and SPD to find it... but they are most likely able too... is there ROI for them?.... quite possibly yes.... but it depends on the individual)

Can IRCM become ERHM (ADD type to non-ADD type) No but we can fake it well with stimulants and antidepressents... but creativity is often lost with The ADs (CM is where emotion is stored in memory...)

It really does not matter if I am a bird or a human as long as I am functiional and living a life worth living... the diferences are only important in moving past the problem of seeing everything as a disorder. Fuctionalism and evolution do not only apply to non-humans...humans are animals too We are just caught up in our big egos.

We are all sentient... that, in the end is most important...
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Old 06-03-05, 04:17 PM
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Base cognitive types are presumably the labels you place on your 2 continua.

So using your continua, you believe it's impossible to see a narcissistic ADDer, a sociopathic ADDer, a creative sociopath, a structured ADDer?
ie displaying both characteristics simultaneously?

SB.
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Old 06-03-05, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chain

Can an ERHM person become IRCM... yes through neurotransmitters... through volition...no
If 'ADHD is one of two main functional cognitive types' - isn't it amazing that a neurotransmitter (or more) can somehow result in a switch between the 'two main functional cognitive types'?

How does a neurochemical change result in such a profound switch?

How can a presumably simple change in the behaviour of a small set of our neurones, perhaps even in just 1 neurotransmitter, result in an entirely different set of higher level behaviours, ultimately giving rise to two mutually exclusive states - ERHM and IRCM ... or nonADDer and ADDer ... representing the 'two main functional cognitive types'?

Shouldn't that be the big question?

Incidentally are these 2 main base functional cognitive types ADDer (IRCM) and sociopathic narcissist (ERHM), or ADDer and normal (on your primary/secondary continua)?

SB.
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Old 06-03-05, 05:07 PM
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Folks, this entire thread is logically bankrupt. It depends on the previous thread, which isn't supported at all.

It's deceitful to cite questionable material as authoritative, and pretend to build on it without addressing valid objections.

Several members of the forums, ourselves included, have been trying to engage Cory in an attempt to understand some of his 'theory' in a way that we can accept as actually being scientific.

He has refused to respond, instead ignoring our specific questions in favor of vague attacks, personal and otherwise.

Until he slows down long enough to talk with those of us who have legitimate questions (and the training and expertise to ask them), we have to consider these 'theories' to be no more than casual speculation.

Sorry, Cory, but this isn't making it. We're trying, but we're not getting anything like the response we'd expect from someone with actual science behind their ideas.

Argue with that if you want, but at least argue some point, dude.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chain
In the first part of the Evolution of AD/HD I explained my view that it was initially a genetic spread function.

It is still being selected for in the human species…
Unfortunately, this hasn't been established. As far as we can tell, this isn't really a very significant factor, and the only reason we see for hyping it is to create an artificial division between ADDers and normals.

For example, in your original post you said:


Quote:
It is a functional type of human cognition...

Here is what I have discovered. The theories and models are pretty tight at this point.


Why does AD/HD exist?

1. It started as a simple way of spreading genes across different cultural groups.

2(a). It ended up being a driver of innovation and technology as a secondary effect.

2(b). Therefore (it) continues to be selected for.

Back to that in a minute. Some more randomly chosen statements, which I'm certain you feel are obviously true, and for which you also offer no support:


Quote:
Highly structured groups/culture tend to be xenophobic…
Sorry, but they don't. Xenophobia has a specific etiology. It has nothing to do with structure.


Quote:
This creates an environment in which genetic material is not fresh...
Sorry, but no again. The terms 'fresh' and 'genetic material' aren't correctly coupled here.


Quote:
Groups needed both fresh genetic material and xenophobia…
There isn't any way to tell what you mean by this; it's not obvious to those of us with formal training, and your refusal to address our questions and concerns is troubling.

However: regardless of how you meant it (if you did actually think it through) there is no valid direct relationship establishing that groups 'need' either 'fresh' genetic material or xenophobia.


Quote:
A strict hierarchy must be maintained in order to provide the best protection…
Sorry, no, no, no. What the heck are you thinking? Are you trying to establish a logical justification for enforcing a hierarchy of your own design?

If this seems obvious to you, you need to slow down and think about what science actually is, how it works, and then begin to apply it honestly.


Quote:
Foreigners bring new ideas and instability…
Equivalent statement: airplanes bring new ideas and instability.

There are a lot more: boxes delivered to your door, letters, learning anything new, catching mom unawares, and so on. It's just not relevant, and the instability isn't either.

Oh well. You get the point, or you don't; it doesn't really matter. The point is valid. We're not certain that your basic ideas are. These specific statements of yours are off to the side somewhere, in need of some resuscitation.


You originally stated "it is a functional type of human cognition." Unfortunately, that phrase has little or no meaning, regardless of what your degree might have been in.

Try this: AD/HD is not a type of cognition.

Read it again, and again, until you can hear what people with lots of training and experience have been trying to politely tell you: AD/HD is not a type of cognition, and treating it as such forces everyone to try to translate what you're saying into real terms.

AD/HD has an effect on cognition, but it affects everything else about how we use our brains, too. Why pick on cognition? Our guess is that you don't understand it at all, which is why we tried to explain something about it to you early on.

If you could 'see' cognition the way your writings imply, you wouldn't be saying that AD/HD is a class of cognition. AD/HD is in fact an entirely different class of logical object, which we thought should be obvious.

But I guess it's not. Too bad.


As long as we've on the subject of the flaws in your presentation, here's some more comments relating to just the tiny bit we quoted back at the beginning:


1. (AD/HD) started as a simple way of spreading genes across different cultural groups.

AD/HD did not start as a way of spreading genes across different cultural groups, simple or otherwise. Sorry, dude, but if your whole theory is based on this idea, it's all invalid.


2(a). (AD/HD) ended up being a driver of innovation and technology as a secondary effect.

Nope, sorry. AD/HD did not end up being a driver of innovation and technology as a secondary effect of (1.)

The 'driver' isn't of science and technology at all; that is the secondary effect. There is a mechanism that arises as our brains begin to adapt to the use of specific logical structures, not too hard a thing to understand.

The mechanisms themselves aren't too hard to understand, either, and once you spend a bit of time looking at how these things happened, anyone can see why they look like a driver of technology.

But you need to do that, specify a mechanism; you can't just blindly claim stuff happened because it seems to make sense to you.

If that's harsh, tough; you are completely ignoring our questions here, and a lot of us are beginning to suspect that you don't have answers.


2(b). Therefore (it) continues to be selected for.

Selection is selection, dude; what does your statement have to do with that? Is there some way that we’re supposed to assume a connection between your previous statements and the process of selection itself?

I don't think so. I suspect you meant to make a point, that there are forces that cause a genetic predisposition to AD/HD to select.

We've already covered that. We've proposed a solid model of the underlying mechanisms, which seem to be missing in your models.

Is there something more that you want us to explain, or are you trying to dismiss our understanding of the situation by ignoring it?

Either way, it's just rude, isn't it?

* * * * *

Actually, this is where the 'model' for this sort of thing is located, in offering an explanation for the underlying mechanism. Your 'models' don't do that; they don't even try.

And they aren't really models if they don't; they're just a bunch of unsupported statements. We’re trying to cut you a break, asking you to explain a bit of the mechanisms you apparently see at work, but to no avail.


Feel free to respond, if you want. We are serious about trying to understand what you're talking about, and confident that we understand enough to know that there are serious weak spots.

We’re trying to be polite, in the spirit of these forums that was established long before you joined in. If you really don't like our culture, you should say so. But I think most of us like it.

Why not join in?
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  #11  
Old 06-03-05, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SB_UK
Base cognitive types are presumably the labels you place on your 2 continua…
And right there is how things start to go south. SB's trying, but this little conversation is already doomed.

AD/HD Is not a class of cognition. We're being drawn into a discussion using false terms, and there is no way out once it begins.

I suggest Cory address this difficulty right here and now, so the discussion can proceed honestly.
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Old 06-03-05, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
AD/HD Is not a class of cognition. We're being drawn into a discussion using false terms, and there is no way out once it begins.
Let's break this down a little. First the definition of cognition :
  1. The mental process of knowing, including aspects such as awareness, perception, reasoning, and judgment.
  2. That which comes to be known, as through perception, reasoning, or intuition; knowledge.
Based on this definition, I would agree that AD/HD is not a class of cognition. But, AD/HD definitely affects one's cognition.

So it actually is a <blank> of cognition. Any ideas?
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Old 06-03-05, 07:10 PM
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That's a pretty interesting definition, Tim. Just out of curiosity, where did it come from, or is it your personal gestalt based on your background?

We use a functional definition derived from well understood and generally accepted models of neural function. That's a bigger stretch than most tend to make, but it gives it a solid base.

It also makes our definition seem a bit slippery sometimes, because we’re always referring back to the neural level. It can seem like we’re avoiding the details that show up in stuff like your definition, but we’re not. We see the stuff you cited as artifacts of the underlying processes that give rise to cognition.

If we needed to sum our model up, it would be something like this:

Cognition is the active process of modeling being in a logical context that is itself a model of the physical context, i.e., the external physical world. This process feeds back, affecting both the model of the context and the model of the active process itself. So in a sense, cognition is an interactive process.

There's a lot of support out there in the CS community for this view or something similar. It’s sometimes described using a 'film' metaphor, but that doesn't capture the way that it's an interactive process.

It doesn't directly suggest an appropriate neural expression, either, which is how we came by our model. We went from the bottom up, asking how do these things work first, and then figuring out how they might make something that looks like, say, consciousness experience.

Or, not so coincidentally, AD/HD. We weren't looking for it; we were trying to explain certain differences between people, and AD/HD was something we needed to understand and eliminate from the equation before we could understand the specific differences we were targeting.
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Old 06-03-05, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
That's a pretty interesting definition, Tim. Just out of curiosity, where did it come from, or is it your personal gestalt based on your background?
Not my personal definition, just Webster's defintion.

Here is the American-Heritage definition:

The mental process of knowing, including aspects such as awareness, perception, reasoning, and judgment. 2. That which comes to be known, as through perception, reasoning, or intuition; knowledge.

If you think about it, AD/HD is only a label for the way a persons mind operates. One of the major classic symptoms of this style of thinking is "racing thoughts".

For example, "Gee, look at that cat over by the tree, did I feed the cats this morning before I left for work, I hope someone brings donuts to work today, boy I need to stop eating junk food, where can I go for lunch, Oh yeah, I am supposed to meet Bob at Chipotle for lunch, I hope he doesn't talk about his health problems the whole time, I need to schedule a doctor's appointment....." This also happening all within seconds time or less.

Could it be that AD/HD is a "style" of thinking, while thinking is a "catalyst" of cognition.

No scientific basis here, just ideas.
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Old 06-04-05, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timh
Based on this definition, I would agree that AD/HD is not a class of cognition. But, AD/HD definitely affects one's cognition.

So it actually is a <blank> of cognition. Any ideas?
How about?


ADHD is the name for individuals with the visible consequences of an altered structure of mind. All processes of mind are affected by this altered structure, including cognition.
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