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  #46  
Old 12-02-16, 02:18 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
This right there was why I described it as not being in this world. If a person is standing in front of you and you are talking to them and they are looking at you and they don't acknowledge anything you have said, or even attempt to read your lips...they stand there like a doll, what would you call it? I was once with an autistic child in one of these non-communicative states when a bookcase shelf collapsed. No one was hurt, just a bunch of books fell to the floor and made a loud noise,the child didn't even blink. It was experiences like this that lead me to use the term not in this world...do you have another way to describe it?

My ADHD son may not hear me at first but once I get him to come back by saying his name or touching his shoulder he's back and we can talk. My experience with Autistic children are that they are just sometimes gone and they will not come back until they are ready to.
What you describe is generally called Withdrawal or Shutdown caused by
Sensory Overload.

http://www.autism.org.uk/sensory

The autistic person has not gone away to another world, they've gone inside
themselves. Since they can't physically escape from the Sensory Overload,
they retreat within themselves.

There's so much sensory stuff bombarding them that they can't focus on just
one thing, like a person standing face-to-face talking, or the bookcase falling.

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Old 12-02-16, 09:38 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
This right there was why I described it as not being in this world. If a person is standing in front of you and you are talking to them and they are looking at you and they don't acknowledge anything you have said, or even attempt to read your lips...they stand there like a doll, what would you call it? I was once with an autistic child in one of these non-communicative states when a bookcase shelf collapsed. No one was hurt, just a bunch of books fell to the floor and made a loud noise,the child didn't even blink. It was experiences like this that lead me to use the term not in this world...do you have another way to describe it?
Lunacie made some really good points and this is basically repeating what she said....If they were autistic, I wouldn't know for sure what was going on, but it could be called shutdown, or having trouble processing auditory information, or sensory overload, or a mix of those even. Maybe even losing the ability to speak, going mute.

I want to assure you we are still "here" in this world when those things occur. We are just different and process things differently and may sometimes have trouble expressing ourselves verbally/communicating and have different body language.

Quote:
My ADHD son may not hear me at first but once I get him to come back by saying his name or touching his shoulder he's back and we can talk. My experience with Autistic children are that they are just sometimes gone and they will not come back until they are ready to.
I guess I can see how it can seem that they are "gone."

But it's actually just a different way of being. We never leave our bodies. We may be unable to communicate or show that we want to communicate. Or maybe we are misunderstood sometimes. But we never "leave" like as in there isn't a human being there with you anymore.

You are right though that they can't communicate in the way wanted by the listener until they are ready/able to.
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  #48  
Old 12-03-16, 04:48 AM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
I have had multiple dealings with Autistic children as a camp counselor. Some had Asperger syndrome, and some got VERY upset by what appeared to me to be normal every day things, like a candle, or we were warned not to touch the child unless they were in immediate danger. I am by no means an expert. However, in my opinion, ADHD and Dyslexic people see the world in a different way, but they are in THIS world. Through strategies, medicine, and or other adjustments most of the time conformity can happen with most academic things. Conversely Autistic people, depending on the level of Autism, are actually in another world. Those are two very different categories.
you don't have autism though, correct? so, people telling you their experiences with it supersede your observations and suppositions about the minds of others, i would think.

some of your posts sound incredibly cynical on this thread. i find it unsettling.

i think the point though i wanted to discuss the book and i get you've not read it, but it seems you are disagreeing with it without any real grounds to do so. and i'm unsure why you've moved to pass judgment on the experiences of those on the spectrum, unless you are...i'm sorry i don't really know what your diagnostic situation is.

your "shrug" seemed to be shrugging off the ideas that you've not read and arguing against it.

i'm possibly a bit discombobulated, but i'm skimming through this thread and it seems like you're going quite a distance to tell people on the spectrum what they're like instead of listening to them tell you what they're like and accepting that their firsthand experience outweighs yours, by definition.
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Old 12-04-16, 11:59 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

so, i read through again and thought i'd share an excerpt from the book that explains why i think it's an important read for me. because these goals are my goals. and i'm committed to finding alternatives to punishment/reward models because i think the numerous studies he cites showing that that encourages self interest and reduces social responsibility and social conscience... i don't want to tread any political lines here so i'll leave it at that or am happy to discuss in debates, so i'll leave it at that.

anyway, in chapter ten entitled "the child's perspective" he opens,

Quote:
how do we raise our children to be happy? that's an important question, but here's another one: how do we raise our children to be concerned about whether other people are happy?

it's important that we don't allow the first issue to upstage the second--or, for that matter, that we don't spend more energy trying to get kids to be polite and well behaved than on trying to help them become genuinely compassionate and committed to doing the right thing. we need to focus on our children's moral* development.

to do so is to recast various ideas that are discussed in other parenting books. for example, "boundaries" and "limits" are usually thought of as restrictions that adults impose on children. but shouldn't our goal be for the children to refrain from doing certain things not because we've forbidden them, but just because they're wrong? the limits on kids' behavior, in other words, should be experienced as intrinsic to the situation. we want them to ask "how will doing x make that other kid feel?"--not "am i allowed to do x?" or "will i get in trouble for doing x?"

this is an ambitious goal, but not an unrealistic one because we have good material to work with. human beings are born with the capacity to care. thus, parents hoping to raise a child who is responsive to the needs of others already have "an ally within the child," as martin hoffman once put it.

of course, that doesn't mean that kids will automatically grow into ethical people if left to their own devices. they need our help. to begin with, they need us to stop doing things that interfere with moral growth, things like punishments and rewards, which are rooted in--and underscore a child's preoccupation with--self-interest. the elimination of these staples of traditional discipline is an important step toward helping children become attuned to the well-being of others...
(bolding mine)
*i would substitute "ethical", but "moral" is what he uses here
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  #50  
Old 12-05-16, 11:11 AM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
you don't have autism though, correct? so, people telling you their experiences with it supersede your observations and suppositions about the minds of others, i would think.

some of your posts sound incredibly cynical on this thread. i find it unsettling.

i think the point though i wanted to discuss the book and i get you've not read it, but it seems you are disagreeing with it without any real grounds to do so. and i'm unsure why you've moved to pass judgment on the experiences of those on the spectrum, unless you are...i'm sorry i don't really know what your diagnostic situation is.

your "shrug" seemed to be shrugging off the ideas that you've not read and arguing against it.

i'm possibly a bit discombobulated, but i'm skimming through this thread and it seems like you're going quite a distance to tell people on the spectrum what they're like instead of listening to them tell you what they're like and accepting that their firsthand experience outweighs yours, by definition.
I have not read the book and I am not autistic. I was responding to something that was posted with my first post. My shrug really was meant to display, as stated, to each their own. I personally am not interested in exploring unconditional parenting with my children because I think children need hard rules, as long as the reasons for the rules are explained and it's not a dictatorship.

The autism discussion kind of spiraled away from the thread because I made a reference comparing and contrasting autistic vs ADHD. Some people who have autism, or more experience with autism, were disagreeing with my interpretation of what I had been seeing. It was more of a clarification discussion, not meant to be cynical.
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Old 12-05-16, 12:15 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
Shrug, to each their own. Every kid is different, I hope that by telling my kids the reasons why I handled the situations the way I handled them, it will help them to understand their own moral compasses. As my 14 year old gets older I can see the defiance in his eyes that he disagrees, I then ask him why he disagrees. 9 times out of 10 he didn't understand my reasoning, so I explained it again, but every now and then he does have a different take on things that makes me reevaluate.

I don't think any kind of dictatorship would work with a child, they need to know they have a voice in their life. However, my kids are also aware of certain expectations and rules, and they are unbreakable. If you do not have an 80% average in your core subjects you are grounded is an example of one. Notice I didn't say an 80% in ALL subjects, I said an average. My boy dislikes science with a passion, I am lucky if he is passing, but a higher math grade (which he loves) can compensate for his science grade. He has the power over if he is grounded, but he also knows it is a firm rule.
That sounds like you expect your child to listen and consider what you're explaining as your reasons.

And you also are willing to listen to your child if he doesn't agree with your reasoning. That's good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
I have not read the book and I am not autistic. I was responding to something that was posted with my first post. My shrug really was meant to display, as stated, to each their own. I personally am not interested in exploring unconditional parenting with my children because I think children need hard rules, as long as the reasons for the rules are explained and it's not a dictatorship.

The autism discussion kind of spiraled away from the thread because I made a reference comparing and contrasting autistic vs ADHD. Some people who have autism, or more experience with autism, were disagreeing with my interpretation of what I had been seeing. It was more of a clarification discussion, not meant to be cynical.
As you aren't interested in reading anything about the book or the subject of unconditional parenting,
I don't understand why you decided to join the discussion.
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Old 12-05-16, 12:30 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
it's more about developing a child with a social conscience or ethical compass or however you prefer to phrase it. more about respect and love and steering away from coercion or carrot/stick, punishment/reward systems. it's a process though, not a how to list.

i think of self regulation as still, with respect to ADHD, quite possibly needing more than love to develop self regulation. this would be less about shaping behaviour in favor of fostering creation of self. kids without self regulation still can need medication or other treatments.

with length, i want to say it's under 250. i just take forever nowadays...
To answer the question of why I posted on this topic...the above in bold is why. While I have not read the book, as I think everyone else who posted on this topic has not read the book, I believe strongly that behavior can be shaped when the parent shares their own moral compass and it's included in the carrot/stick, punishment/reward system.

I think sharing our experience and views on the world is a great help to our children. While I am showing them MY moral compass and MY conscience I think that is all valuable information. Why let them flounder to figure out right and wrong? As they get older they will decide for themselves what they truly believe is right and wrong, but there will be many times in their lives that they will have to follow someone elses belief system, such as their boss, and they may not agree but they DO have to follow it if they want to not get in trouble. Our society is based on the punishment/reward system so why not raise our kids that way?
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Old 12-05-16, 03:37 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
To answer the question of why I posted on this topic...the above in bold is why. While I have not read the book, as I think everyone else who posted on this topic has not read the book, I believe strongly that behavior can be shaped when the parent shares their own moral compass and it's included in the carrot/stick, punishment/reward system.

I think sharing our experience and views on the world is a great help to our children. While I am showing them MY moral compass and MY conscience I think that is all valuable information. Why let them flounder to figure out right and wrong? As they get older they will decide for themselves what they truly believe is right and wrong, but there will be many times in their lives that they will have to follow someone elses belief system, such as their boss, and they may not agree but they DO have to follow it if they want to not get in trouble. Our society is based on the punishment/reward system so why not raise our kids that way?
Who said anything about letting the child "flounder?"

You start simple, give a child two choices: this food or that food?
This shirt or that shirt?
Read this book or listen to a song at bedtime?
Wear your coat or carry it?
Put on your shoes yourself or have some help?

If you don't like the food they chose, you've learned something about what you like or don't like.
If they get cold they can put the coat on.
It's bedtime, no choice there, but you can choose a book or a music video.
No choice about wearing shoes, but you can choose to put them on yourself
or have someone do it for you.

So when they grow up and get a job, they know that even when it seems like
there isn't a choice, like with the boss, there is still a choice.
Discuss the options that the boss may not have considered, get along or get out.

It's about naturally-following consequences rather than arbitrary punishment or reward.
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Old 12-05-16, 05:08 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
Why let them flounder to figure out right and wrong?
i'm with luna...nobody said "let them flounder". in fact, in the excerpt i quoted he states clearly:

Quote:
of course, that doesn't mean that kids will automatically grow into ethical people if left to their own devices. they need our help.
Quote:
As they get older they will decide for themselves what they truly believe is right and wrong, but there will be many times in their lives that they will have to follow someone elses belief system, such as their boss, and they may not agree but they DO have to follow it if they want to not get in trouble.
actually, one of the points he makes in the book is to cite numerous studies indicating that they WON'T be equipped to decide for themselves what's right/wrong intrinsically because they've been coerced into seeing right/wrong as a function of consequences only, and, specifically, consequences that promote/deny them their self interests.

and with having to follow others' systems, like a boss...i would rather my child stand up and refuse to do something unethical regardless of whether her "boss" tells her to. and it seems reasonable to me that fostering that ability in her requires me to cultivate her developing her own critical thinking and ethical compass, and if i'm only telling her what's right/wrong and punishing/reward based on whether she complies...the only thinking she's doing is how to manipulate a system.

Quote:
Our society is based on the punishment/reward system so why not raise our kids that way?
because my perspective/belief/position is that the system is flawed and we can do better than promulgating it...we can do better than teaching to act from self interest; e.g. to act to avoid getting into trouble, to be utilitarians.
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Old 12-06-16, 05:01 AM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

For the record... I didnt read the book either I kind of ran with the topic, I hope thats ok. And I dont think I am some parental guru but I come from a place of experience in having an adult child now, a 16 year old and a 13 year old all with adhd and other comorbids. My son will be 21 in Feb. He was the first child to very young parents. ( I was 20). I taught him about compassion and empathy, sympathy and kindness. I taught him to be a free-thinker even if it means thinking differently then I do. I taught him to respect women and himself. I taught him to treasure memories and to not sweat the small stuff. When he played 'camping' in the woods behind our house with the neighborhood kids and tried lighting an actual fire at 8 years old- we made him apologize to each child's parents. We didnt let him in the woods for awhile. We did not ground him or take something away because after the fact I think the punishment part would have been more about making me feel like I was an adequate parent, and not about teaching him anything.

When he stole a lolipop from the convienence store, I made him go in with money and buy it. I didnt shame him. I tried to teach him how you are supposed to acquire things in this world. When he was a sophomore he went through a period where his politics were very pro-gun/conservative which were not at all what we believed in our house, and I listened to him make his case for what he thought I should support. I gritted my teeth, disagreed and let him find his own way. We sure butted heads-but never did I shame, or punish him. I tried very hard to have him experience natural consequences-and if there were no obvious ones-I did my best to talk to him about it. The few times I lost my temper and did punish him was purely because I was angry that he disobeyed me and I wanted to make him feel bad about it.
Ive learned

He is 20 now and a great person.I can say that with confidence.Looking at him I know that despite my alcoholism, depression and bipolar, I still raised a good human. He isnt without fault, but he isnt cruel or mean.
My daughters are on this path as well- but differently. They get the kinder, softer and thoughtful mom-someone with more patience and time for them. With their brother, I had to work, go to school and take care of him.
I dont know how to wrap this up very well.
And I dont want anyone to think I am bragging or a know-it-all.I just wanted to share my perspective.
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Old 08-20-17, 07:36 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
it's more about developing a child with a social conscience or ethical compass or however you prefer to phrase it. more about respect and love and steering away from coercion or carrot/stick, punishment/reward systems. it's a process though, not a how to list.

i think of self regulation as still, with respect to ADHD, quite possibly needing more than love to develop self regulation. this would be less about shaping behaviour in favor of fostering creation of self. kids without self regulation still can need medication or other treatments.

with length, i want to say it's under 250. i just take forever nowadays...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
I will look for the book, and after I finish it ..

..could we discuss these topics in parts, in posts under 250 , over a long period of time?

Because I mostly agree, and i am not sure why we are appearing to disagree?

Edit: It might have something to do with context?

Let me get back to you after I read the book.


G
I downloaded the audiobook.

Have listened to 4 chapters, and I recommend the audiobook to every family.

Thanks peripatetic.

I understand now, what you mean.

So far, in my own words, I would equate it to the difference between the child who receives loving attachment needs but lacks more complex individual attunement needs.

Children with AD(H)D temperaments have even more attunement needs than normal.

This is a great book so far.

I want to listen to the whole audiobook before I comment more.

Looking forward to discussing the information focusing on terminologies the author prefers in about a week, when I finish.






M
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Old 08-20-17, 10:45 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

it's been a really useful perspective for me to have read. i can't even count the number of times e has wanted to do something or been frustrated at her inability to communicate (especially before she could talk very well and even still at 2.5) and when i stop and get on her level and try to figure out WITH HER what's wrong and how we can work together... it has (touch wood) thus far worked.

example:

the other day we were going to brother in law's. we wanted her to get into the vehicle. she lost it and wanted to play chalk. i took a minute to realize she was under slept (her nap that day was only twenty minutes), she hadn't eaten a great deal, and we'd given her 1/2 a dramamine (she has car sickness to the point of vomiting for anything that's longer than a thirty minute ride...and even then it can happen), and we were asking her to get into her carseat, which she's not the biggest fan of.

i ended up asking her if we did chalk for ten minutes whilst eating a light snack, telling her that i understood we're asking a lot and it's frustrating, if we could play chalk for a bit and then get into the car seat. she agreed. brother in law got a call that we'd be a good fifteen minutes late, which he understood. she played for less than ten minutes, ate an apple, and climbed up into the seat herself.

i really like the book.
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Old 08-28-17, 12:28 AM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
it's been a really useful perspective for me to have read. i can't even count the number of times e has wanted to do something or been frustrated at her inability to communicate (especially before she could talk very well and even still at 2.5) and when i stop and get on her level and try to figure out WITH HER what's wrong and how we can work together... it has (touch wood) thus far worked.

example:

the other day we were going to brother in law's. we wanted her to get into the vehicle. she lost it and wanted to play chalk. i took a minute to realize she was under slept (her nap that day was only twenty minutes), she hadn't eaten a great deal, and we'd given her 1/2 a dramamine (she has car sickness to the point of vomiting for anything that's longer than a thirty minute ride...and even then it can happen), and we were asking her to get into her carseat, which she's not the biggest fan of.

i ended up asking her if we did chalk for ten minutes whilst eating a light snack, telling her that i understood we're asking a lot and it's frustrating, if we could play chalk for a bit and then get into the car seat. she agreed. brother in law got a call that we'd be a good fifteen minutes late, which he understood. she played for less than ten minutes, ate an apple, and climbed up into the seat herself.

i really like the book.


Thanks Peripatetic

Your example above is exactly what I have been trying to express for several years.

This is really fun learning these things with you and everyone.

I think I am more preverbal.

These discussions really help me to learn to verbally express what I am feeling.


Quote:
Quote:
(14:26) ..There is a big difference after all, between a child who does something because he or she believes it's the right thing to do, and one who does it out of a sense of compulsion. Ensuring the children internalize our values isn't the same thing as helping them to develop their own. And it's diametrically apposed to the goal of having kids become independent thinkers...
-Alfie Kohn, "Unconditional Parenting", (Audiobook) Introduction.

M
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

There are parts in National Geographic's tv series "Einstein", when Einstein is separated from his young sons' without visiting them for several years, because of factors including work, war and the divorce. In a scene Albert Einstein visits his son in the hospital after Einstein learns his son tried to commit suicide. Until then Einstein assumed his sons' knew that he loved them. But when he saw his son in the hospital Einstein realized, perhaps his son did not know his father loved him.




(Paraphrasing)




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Post Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
it's been a really useful perspective for me to have read. i can't even count the number of times e has wanted to do something or been frustrated at her inability to communicate (especially before she could talk very well and even still at 2.5) and when i stop and get on her level and try to figure out WITH HER what's wrong and how we can work together... it has (touch wood) thus far worked.

example:

the other day we were going to brother in law's. we wanted her to get into the vehicle. she lost it and wanted to play chalk. i took a minute to realize she was under slept (her nap that day was only twenty minutes), she hadn't eaten a great deal, and we'd given her 1/2 a dramamine (she has car sickness to the point of vomiting for anything that's longer than a thirty minute ride...and even then it can happen), and we were asking her to get into her carseat, which she's not the biggest fan of.

i ended up asking her if we did chalk for ten minutes whilst eating a light snack, telling her that i understood we're asking a lot and it's frustrating, if we could play chalk for a bit and then get into the car seat. she agreed. brother in law got a call that we'd be a good fifteen minutes late, which he understood. she played for less than ten minutes, ate an apple, and climbed up into the seat herself.

i really like the book.
I guess it's important to take the time to understand our children when they
are young, because once they start school we don't always have the time to
take the time. I woke up this morning to loud voices just before the "bus"
arrived to take my granddaughter to school.

Most of the time my daughter is patient and awesome and will give my GD
space to talk about it ... saying if she doesn't ride on the bus that mommy
will drive her to school because she has to go to school. But this morning
mommy had a doctor's appointment so no time to drive the kiddo to school.
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