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  #16  
Old 06-07-17, 02:22 PM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
I have a problem with this....while the deficit may not be his "fault" there are ways to adapt, ways to counter balance the deficit....this kid won't try to adapt or help himself. It sounds to me like these parents are trying to talk to their kid, trying to get him help when it's obviously over their head, and he refuses to listen and refuses to even attempt to help himself. That is not on them, that is on the kid. He doesn't want help, he doesn't want to attempt to help himself, and he wants to rant and break things in his parents home because he thinks he is entitled to do that, and that is the problem.
Of course I didn't phrase it that way to him. I was in the room when the therapist (who also has ADHD kids) just told him that he needs to learn to accept help in doing the things that challenge him until he learns to do that himself, like using a planner, putting appointments on his phone, setting an alarm that will get him up etc.
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Old 06-07-17, 02:23 PM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
Honestly, and this will not be a popular response....I would take away privileges. ADHD can cause some issues. I have two kids with it, but what you have there sounds like a spoiled entitled brat who doesn't want the help you are trying to provide. This happens to ADHD kids and non ADHD kids.
How do you know he doesnt want help? I get it that he is acting a certain way, but teens are notorious for acting in ways that do not accurately reflect what they really want or think.


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He doesn't appreciate what he has....so take it all away. I wouldn't let him have a car, or money, or any other fun thing he likes to do. I would also charge him rent after high school. He doesn't know the challenges of real life....so I would show him.
Definitely agree with no car. Its a weapon. That kind of anger doesnt need a 3000lb weapon. I dont agree with taking away everything that is fun though.

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Otherwise he will be in your house for the extended future and letting you know that YOU are the bad person here. You are the parent...you need to parent.

P.S. That texting insults to you because you took your own car is totally unacceptable. What was your punishment to him?
I can imagine it would be hard to punish an angry 17 year old male. What do you suggest? And what happens if he doesnt abide by the punishment?
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Old 06-07-17, 02:24 PM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

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Originally Posted by Little Missy View Post
Why would a 17 year old have a phone in the first place? Does he have a job to pay for it?
How many 17 year olds do you know who don't have cell phones? Yes, he has a job to pay for it.
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Old 06-07-17, 02:26 PM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
I have a problem with this....while the deficit may not be his "fault" there are ways to adapt, ways to counter balance the deficit....this kid won't try to adapt or help himself. It sounds to me like these parents are trying to talk to their kid, trying to get him help when it's obviously over their head, and he refuses to listen and refuses to even attempt to help himself. That is not on them, that is on the kid. He doesn't want help, he doesn't want to attempt to help himself, and he wants to rant and break things in his parents home because he thinks he is entitled to do that, and that is the problem.
lets suppose what you say is true. All he wants to do is break stuff, he wants no help and refuses help. What then? Should they just throw in the towel? Send him to boot camp or millitary school?
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Old 06-07-17, 02:32 PM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

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Originally Posted by TylerDurdon View Post
Of course I didn't phrase it that way to him. I was in the room when the therapist (who also has ADHD kids) just told him that he needs to learn to accept help in doing the things that challenge him until he learns to do that himself, like using a planner, putting appointments on his phone, setting an alarm that will get him up etc.
TylerDurdon, I wasn't talking to you I was talking to dvdnvwls when he said he this high lighted part below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdnvwls http://www.addforums.com/forums/imag...s/viewpost.gif
Anxiety can come from dealing with ADHD, it's true...

If you put it like "because of your terrible skills" though, I mean, what kind of reaction DID you expect? Blaming him for ADHD is not going to solve anything, and in fact blaming him for his symptoms is a textbook example of how parents can turn kids oppositional and defiant. He knows bad time management is part of ADHD and not his fault. If he's blamed for it by someone who ought to know better, he is going to label that person a liar, and he's going to stop listening to them.


I have a problem with this....while the deficit may not be his "fault" there are ways to adapt, ways to counter balance the deficit....this kid won't try to adapt or help himself. It sounds to me like these parents are trying to talk to their kid, trying to get him help when it's obviously over their head, and he refuses to listen and refuses to even attempt to help himself. That is not on them, that is on the kid. He doesn't want help, he doesn't want to attempt to help himself, and he wants to rant and break things in his parents home because he thinks he is entitled to do that, and that is the problem.
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  #21  
Old 06-07-17, 02:34 PM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
I have a problem with this....while the deficit may not be his "fault" there are ways to adapt, ways to counter balance the deficit....this kid won't try to adapt or help himself. It sounds to me like these parents are trying to talk to their kid, trying to get him help when it's obviously over their head, and he refuses to listen and refuses to even attempt to help himself. That is not on them, that is on the kid. He doesn't want help, he doesn't want to attempt to help himself, and he wants to rant and break things in his parents home because he thinks he is entitled to do that, and that is the problem.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/show...6&postcount=18
Quote:
The 30% rule.

With ADHD, there are a number of parts of the brain involved and each kid has a different mixture of symptoms characterized by a slower development of these areas. Having said that some useful generalizations can be made. In general ADHD can be seen as a deficit in self regulation-self control. These kids have developmental deficits in the ability to resist impulse, stay on focus, connect what they do with the consequences, seeing ahead, planning for upcoming events, following rules and a number of other issues. ADHD kids are seen as more impulsive and having difficulty regulating behaviors and emotions. They do not see as far into the future as their age mates. They can be seen as functioning on a younger age level-immaturity if you would. Be aware that this has little to do with intelligence or achievement. It involves only those areas affected by adhd.

A number of years ago Russell Barkley examined studies looking at the amount of this deficit and he found an average of around 30%.

What this means is that you can take 30% (or a third which ever is easier) off a child's age and this will give you a rough idea how you should be treating this child.

If you have a 10 year old you should be treating him more like a 7 year old. Would you hand a 7 year old a book and tell him to have a report ready in one month? No way! What will happen is that "you" will do the assignment, not the kid. If we expect the child to operate like the normal 10 year old then it is our problem not the child's. What we might do is approach the assignment as you would a 7 year old. Break it down into smaller segments. Have the child read a few pages each day and write a few sentences covering what he just read. Again he has the ability to understand the material. This effects the amount of work that can be done.

The same principle applies to emotional issues. A 6 year old child will be operating more like a child almost 2 years younger. In other words, he will be reacting emotionally more like a 4 year old. Like a 4 year old, he will show his emotions faster and they will be more intense. If you expect him to exhibit an emotional control of a normal 6 year old it is your problem, not the child's. You are expecting the child to behave in a way of which he is not capable. If you expect him to see and react to events coming at him in the future again the 30% rule applies. "Didn't you see that coming?" The answer is likely "No". The child is simply not capable of looking that far into the future.

On discipline, take an 8 year old. He is likely to be operating on the level of a 5-6 year old. If you expect him to follow rules, connect behaviors to consequences, see problems and head them off like a 8 year old, it your problem. If you expect him to do like a 5 year old then you can successfully make it his problem. If you insist on dealing with him as a 8 year old then you will have battles, struggles and not a lot of behavior changes. If you deal with him as you would a 5 years old, then you will probably see some positive changes. This is in your control. Younger kids tend to forget more, goof up more, test the parents more but we do not think much about it because we expect the younger child to act this way. It is when we expect the child to act in a developmentally inappropriate manner is when we get into trouble.

Your child wants to drive at 16. Using the 30% rule, you are letting an someone with the emotional maturity of an 11 year drive your car. Wow! Not a good thing. Many parents link driving privileges to taking medication. Medication can, on some, bring them up to almost normal. This is to a good extent a treatable issue.

The 30% rule is based on unmedicated.
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  #22  
Old 06-07-17, 02:42 PM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

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Originally Posted by TylerDurdon View Post
he uses terms like depression, but I also know that he spends a lot of time on the internet; I've asked his ADHD therapist to evaluate him for other issues, we're just getting into the normal cadence of regular visits to an expensive private pay therapist. My son absolutely loves talking about himself. When he starts a conversation with us and we suggest that his anxiety might be coming from his terrible time management or organizational skills, his defensive wall goes up and he accuses us of not listening to him. Essentially he just wants to vent and complain and externalize the reasons for his stress "my teacher doesn't like me.. my teacher never told us this was due ... the other kids don't the teacher either.." then we check with the teachers and get a whole different story.
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TIME SENSE IN CHILDREN

Some theory first: The ability to sense and use time is a developmental issue. As our brain grows we begin to see farther into the future, foresight if you would. Adults sometimes plan decades into the future, the four year old none. The frontal part of the brain that pretty much controls this continues to develop to around age thirty. You can see then that kids and teenagers are not as good at this as their parents. If you are over thirty, think about what you can do now that you couldn't do when you were twenty-brain development. If you are under thirty be aware that you will likely get better at it in the coming years.
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The young adolescent (twelve, thirteen, fourteen) is somewhere around three days. Your kid can get a book report assignment and while you nag, remind, fuss, complain, and warn; about three days before it is due, he will begin to think about needing to do the report. Trying to get him to think about it much earlier is probably an exercise in futility. You can try to get him to see further ahead but don't expect a lot of success. Note that I said think about it not do it. Starting to read the book the night before is not particular unusual especially with ADHD kids. It is however almost guaranteed to drive parents into a state of abject frustration.

I estimate that college freshman, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, to be about a week to ten days which explains cram sessions, all nighters etc-Time Sense.

Those who go back to school later in life tend to do spread sheets detailing what they need to be doing at any given moment and often cannot understand why their kids could not do this. Now you know why.
Quote:
Now, ADHD can really disrupt the time sense in a significant way. It can cause a very real and sometimes major defect in the ability to sense time but but more importantly in the ability to use time. What you see is, if you would, "Temporal Myopia": time nearsightedness-a deficit in seeing into the future and responding to upcoming events. These individuals will not react until the event is very close in time often moving into action only when the event has arrived. This helps explain why many adult ADHD'ers are always doing things at the last moment, why always late, why always in a rush. Their lives may bounce from crisis to crises due to the lack of seeing into the future (foresight) and heading off problems. They may tend to react to events only as they arrive-recipe for chaos.

Parents ask their kids "Couldn't you see that coming?" and the answer is probably not. I think the 30% rule (read here) probably applies. These kids use time much like someone about 30% younger. In other words a ten year old probably has the foresight of someone around seven. Kids are not real good at foresight anyway and ADHD can make it much worse.

Another aspect of a lack of time awareness: An ADHD child will be doing his homework and an hour has gone past and nothing much was done. The parent gets upset.

What often happens is that the kid does not have anything resembling an accurate sense of time passage. As far as he is concerned only a short amount of time has passed. This is not willful but a function of ADHD. They have little internal time sense. The trick is to "Make Time Visible". Put a clock on the desk or wherever the homework is done, use alarms to mark time points. At random intervals ask the kid what he is doing right now, focusing or something else.
from:
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  #23  
Old 06-07-17, 02:44 PM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

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Originally Posted by TylerDurdon View Post
How many 17 year olds do you know who don't have cell phones? Yes, he has a job to pay for it.
Let me apologize.

I'm older than all of you here, a cell phone in the hands of a teenager texting his father crap over your own car riles me. I wouldn't put up with it. Especially since a 17 year old just totaled my car on her cell phone with an unrestrained child and her dog flew out the window and landed on the pavement she hit me so hard last week.

I'm glad he has a job.

Your life, my life, I shouldn't have commented. I do apologize.
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Old 06-07-17, 02:45 PM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

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lets suppose what you say is true. All he wants to do is break stuff, he wants no help and refuses help. What then? Should they just throw in the towel? Send him to boot camp or millitary school?
Sarah, I didn't say that's all he wants to do I said he feels entitled to do that. We have heard a lot about him and what he does, but we haven't heard what the parents are doing to attempt to curb this behavior.

What would the average parent do if they received a ranting text from their child about how it was wrong of them to take their own car to work? This "child" feels entitled to act out in this way.

By the way, I have no problem with either of my children having phones. It makes it easier for me to get a hold of them, and no they aren't required to pay for them but there are rules about hours of usage. Also, if there is phone misconduct I have the power to shut off the internet/data portion so it is just truly a phone and a text machine and no longer a small computer hooked up to the internet.
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Old 06-07-17, 09:35 PM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

Deciding that someone who you don't know and have never met feels entitled, based on your own third-hand analysis of someone else's second-hand reports of his actions, is neither valid nor useful.

If you don't know a kid's feelings - or even if you're certain that you do - try asking him. It can bring surprising (and surprisingly good) results.
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Old 06-08-17, 04:54 AM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
Sarah, I didn't say that's all he wants to do I said he feels entitled to do that. We have heard a lot about him and what he does, but we haven't heard what the parents are doing to attempt to curb this behavior.
True, but using the word 'entitled' to me goes beyond asking how the parents are handling their kid. I think someone truly entitled would just be entitled. I dont think they would have to have a mental illness or disability, or depression, or be on medication. I think their impairments, if any would be barely noticable, and the glaring issue would be the entitlement, and I just dont see that here. The kid needs help and needs to participate in his own care, but the idea of it being a lack of parenting, or lack of punishment and entitlement is not doing right by what the cause actually is.


Quote:
What would the average parent do if they received a ranting text from their child about how it was wrong of them to take their own car to work? This "child" feels entitled to act out in this way.
I do not think this is the same thing as an entitled kid demanding a huge sweet 16 bash while driving their Dad's mercedes and staying out all night. I dont think he feels its ok to act that way. People that think their behavior is ok do not generally have the accompanying issues that he seems to have.

Quote:
By the way, I have no problem with either of my children having phones. It makes it easier for me to get a hold of them, and no they aren't required to pay for them but there are rules about hours of usage. Also, if there is phone misconduct I have the power to shut off the internet/data portion so it is just truly a phone and a text machine and no longer a small computer hooked up to the internet.
I am with you on this one. I just enabled "share my location" on everyone's iphones so now when I want to know where exactly they are they just text me and it Gps's their location and sends it to me with a map.
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Old 06-08-17, 06:43 AM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

It's very interesting, I hand't heard of it before.
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Old 06-08-17, 06:48 AM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

Thanks for apologizing - I think that a lot of people weigh in on these topics when it's truly impossible to understand the dynamics of someone else's situation. I've dealt with condescending inferences from people before who's assessment seems to be that if I really know how to parent, these things wouldn't happen. When I see comments like "I wouldn't put up with it" I know that you don't quote understand what's happening in my life. It's like commenting on a forum for parents with blind children that you wouldn't put up with them bumping into things.

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
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Old 06-08-17, 06:59 AM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

"I can imagine it would be hard to punish an angry 17 year old male. What do you suggest? And what happens if he doesn't abide by the punishment?"

Thanks for hearing what I'm really saying. What do you really do? In fits of anger he's not rationale - if you discuss a punishment then he just says "I don't care." When he finishes the cycle of anger he becomes more rationale and you can have discussions with him about behavior. He's above average intelligence, he's been able to articulate since he was 11 that he understands what he's he's supposed to do, but "in the moment" he just can't control himself. I know that there are choices intermingled with the ADHD, perhaps others have a better perspective on exactly where to slice that situation up into what he can control and what he can't. I was obviously venting when I typed my initial post so I understand that it probably evoked emotional responses in everyone. We had a great day yesterday, controlled the conversation, clarified lots of feelings, and it was like talking to a young adult; when the storm hits again I'll just have to do my best.
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Old 06-08-17, 09:00 AM
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Re: I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate

I don't think anyone knows instinctively how to parent in every given situation. I also don't think any of us are going to be perfect at it. I also will admit to not knowing your child and only knowing how I would react if my child were to do these things to me.

Could I stop him from breaking things, nope. Could I stop him from texting nasty things to me, nope. Could I make him work on his issues, nope. However, sometimes on this site we focus too much on the disability/medical issues that our kids have and don't focus enough on the abilities that they do have.

Could your son stop himself from going into these rages...it doesn't sound like it. Sometimes people have bursts of emotions that they MUST get out, it's a physical need...but could he get it out onto a workout dummy in the living room, or leave the room and go to the garage and hit a punching bag, or some other such non-destructive thing? I think he could if the options were there and he was taught to recognize the rages.

Sometimes it isn't about stopping the impulse, it's about channeling the impulse.
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