ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community  

Go Back   ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community > SCIENTIFIC DISCUSSIONS, RESEARCH, NEWS AND EVENTS > Scientific, Philosophical & Theoretical Discussions > Open Science & Philosophical Discussion
Register Blogs FAQ Chat Members List Calendar Donate Gallery Arcade Mark Forums Read

Open Science & Philosophical Discussion This forum is for open discussion, encouraging new and unconventional ways of thinking, welcoming posts in any format

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 08-13-17, 08:50 PM
wonderboy's Avatar
wonderboy wonderboy is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 273
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 118
Thanked 158 Times in 109 Posts
wonderboy has a spectacular aura aboutwonderboy has a spectacular aura about
Re: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False

Most scholarly research is not necessarily always cogent because of the phenomenon of significant "demand characteristics"
That influences subjects in the research

https://www.verywell.com/what-is-a-d...ristic-2795098
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to wonderboy For This Useful Post:
mctavish23 (08-14-17)
  #47  
Old 08-14-17, 02:43 PM
mctavish23 mctavish23 is offline
 

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 6,020
Thanks: 13,631
Thanked 10,028 Times in 3,155 Posts
mctavish23 has disabled reputation
Re: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False

The research constituting the science behind the disorder (of ADHD), which I've studied continuously over the last 30+

years, absolutely meets the aforementioned "Gold Standard."

As someone who was trained as a scientist/clinician, "demand characteristics" are a common confounding variable that

must be always considered and dealt with; primarily via the research design employed.

It's simply "too easy" of a criticism to employ regarding ALL scientific research. However, in this context, I am strictly

concerned about ADHD research and the implications set forth by the OP, whom I have great personal and professional

respect for.


tc

mctavish23

(Robert)
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 08-15-17, 11:16 PM
Kunga Dorji's Avatar
Kunga Dorji Kunga Dorji is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,353
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 1,544
Thanked 5,889 Times in 2,749 Posts
Kunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False

Hi Robert,
good to see you.
Broadly I agree with you- and one of the biggest problems that we here have all had to face is skepticism about the nature of ADHD.

However there are distortions in all fields- usually when there is plenty of money to be made.

We are getting quite a push in Australia to offer Vyvanse as a first line drug. Actually the old fashioned short acting methylphenidate and dexamphetamine do suit the majority of people perfectly well, and are much cheaper. However there is a spin on the science that is being presented to us by drug reps.

At a higher level the other challenge is that behaviours always have complex genesis in terms of neural pathways. ADHD is currently described as a behaviour cluster and will therefore always be heterogenous in terms of underlying neurology. A good deal of time has been wasted on the argument that because consistent neurological differences can't be found, therefore "ADHD does not exist". That has had serious consequences in scaring off people who may well have benefitted from treatment of their ADHD.

I think the field is looking very promising now as more professionals are contributing from their own angles. ie the neuropsychologist Leonard Koziol (author of "Subcortical Structures and Cognition"and "ADHD as a model of Brain Behaviour Relationships".
Koziol is especially impressive in that he is loose enough to say, as a clinician who works with ADHD:

www.leonardkoziol.com/publications/Attention_Evolution_Revolution_2015.pdf

Quote:
Just about every article concluded that traditional constructs of attention are outmoded, although we continue to assess attention from a clinical viewpoint that leads to limited practical applicability.
and

Quote:
First, ADHD is a behaviorally defined diagnosis as it is characterized in the DSM system. And in this regard, we completely agree with Carmichael and colleagues’ (this issue) bold statement that from a neuropsychological perspective, ADHD does not exist....
However, the fact of the matter is that from the behaviorally defined DSM system, ADHD does exist.
__________________
Science advances --one funeral at a time.

I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.

both by:
Max Planck: Nobel Prize 1918 for inventing quantum physics.

Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kunga Dorji For This Useful Post:
mctavish23 (Yesterday), namazu (Yesterday)
Sponsored Links
  #49  
Old 08-15-17, 11:31 PM
Kunga Dorji's Avatar
Kunga Dorji Kunga Dorji is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,353
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 1,544
Thanked 5,889 Times in 2,749 Posts
Kunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond reputeKunga Dorji has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False

Now that analysis has probably turned up further reasons for failure of science-

too often we remain attached to old models that purport to explain the problem without understanding just how fragile the underlying concept is:
IE ADHD as being a "moral deficiency disorder"
or more recently ADHD as being a dopamine deficiency disorder (doesn't explain the therapeutic failure of stimulants in about 20% and doesn't account for the complex brain network models that are being discussed and replacing the neurotransmitter deficiency model- which is on its last legs).

So if you start with an inadequate model and base your research on that model-- it is never going to produce consistent and valuable results.

There are quite a number of reasons that research is often wrong-- but I agree with Ioannides that accepting a 0.05 confidence interval is leaving too much room for chance.

On top of that there are issues with drug companies meddling in results, and the serious problem that few studies are published with access to the database used. There have been many examples of this and they have been well documented leading to substantial payouts over the past few decades.
( I have just looked at one involving a vaccine in which serious results were buried deep in a 1271 page report that was meant to be confidential, but was released when the Italian Judge overseeing the matter deemed it in the public interest.

The truth is that science is not always funded by disinterested parties and we always need to be cautious about what we accept- especially when there is a big price tag attached to the products that come from it.
__________________
Science advances --one funeral at a time.

I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.

both by:
Max Planck: Nobel Prize 1918 for inventing quantum physics.

Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Kunga Dorji For This Useful Post:
mctavish23 (Yesterday)
  #50  
Old Yesterday, 09:47 PM
mctavish23 mctavish23 is offline
 

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 6,020
Thanks: 13,631
Thanked 10,028 Times in 3,155 Posts
mctavish23 has disabled reputation
Re: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False

Agreed. One only has to look at Eli Lilly getting warned by the FDA on Strattera.

tc

Robert
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mctavish23 For This Useful Post:
Little Missy (Yesterday)
  #51  
Old Yesterday, 11:00 PM
mildadhd mildadhd is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Floating around on a melting iceberg, north North America Canada
Posts: 10,745
Thanks: 1,163
Thanked 773 Times in 577 Posts
mildadhd has a reputation beyond reputemildadhd has a reputation beyond reputemildadhd has a reputation beyond reputemildadhd has a reputation beyond reputemildadhd has a reputation beyond reputemildadhd has a reputation beyond reputemildadhd has a reputation beyond reputemildadhd has a reputation beyond reputemildadhd has a reputation beyond reputemildadhd has a reputation beyond reputemildadhd has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunga Dorji View Post
Now that analysis has probably turned up further reasons for failure of science-

too often we remain attached to old models that purport to explain the problem without understanding just how fragile the underlying concept is:
IE ADHD as being a "moral deficiency disorder"
or more recently ADHD as being a dopamine deficiency disorder (doesn't explain the therapeutic failure of stimulants in about 20% and doesn't account for the complex brain network models that are being discussed and replacing the neurotransmitter deficiency model- which is on its last legs).

So if you start with an inadequate model and base your research on that model-- it is never going to produce consistent and valuable results.

There are quite a number of reasons that research is often wrong-- but I agree with Ioannides that accepting a 0.05 confidence interval is leaving too much room for chance.

On top of that there are issues with drug companies meddling in results, and the serious problem that few studies are published with access to the database used. There have been many examples of this and they have been well documented leading to substantial payouts over the past few decades.
( I have just looked at one involving a vaccine in which serious results were buried deep in a 1271 page report that was meant to be confidential, but was released when the Italian Judge overseeing the matter deemed it in the public interest.

The truth is that science is not always funded by disinterested parties and we always need to be cautious about what we accept- especially when there is a big price tag attached to the products that come from it.
I think dopaminergic pathways are involved.

Other factors involved in the development of the dopaminergic pathways, could be the problem.


M
__________________
"In the history of the human race, those periods which later appeared as great have been the periods when the men and the women belonging to them had transcended the differences that divided them and had recognized in their membership in the human race a common bond" -Haile Selassie I
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Excellent Research Publication (lots of pieces to the puzzle) abre los ojos ADD News 5 02-15-05 01:58 AM
Long-Chain Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids SubtleMuttle Nutrition 0 01-10-04 12:40 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 2003 - 2015 ADD Forums