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  #106  
Old 10-17-13, 11:17 PM
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Re: ADD = asset

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevuke79 View Post
Flory, we're all gifted! Good news, right?
Imagine what it's like for poor impaired NT'ers.. constantly burdened with knowledge of where their keys are.
Well, my life is still full of forgetfulness and distractibility, even though I haven't lost my car keys in months.

If ADHD is a neuro developmental disorder, as is currently understood, then no matter which culture you are in, ISTM there would still be difficulties for those with it.

I noticed that, in the "gift do ADHD" materials I have read, the gifts appear AFTER you've had appropriate therapy and learned to manage your life better. And the gifts themselves are pretty much the same as the gifts of the population at large. I remain neither impressed or convinced.
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  #107  
Old 10-18-13, 06:43 AM
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Re: ADD = asset

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
I think this is a topic that provokes strong responses. If I'd found your post
rude, I have PM'd you or reported the post to the mods.



It's true that the education system is set up like a machine and every
student is supposed to be the same in order to fit into the system, and
that's a shame. But I was taking it a notch beyond that, to individual
teachers and counselors and principals and their personal opinions.

If they believe ADHD is something positive and creative and not a real
disorder, something that is used for an excuse to be lazy, they won't be
willing to accomodate and work with a kid that doesn't fit so well. ADHD
has long been seen as moral failing, and that's an even bigger shame. So
yeah, I have a strong response to media making it seem like ADHD is no
biggie and the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.



I think people can take an illness such a cancer and use it to make
themselves and even the world a better place. But that doesn't change the
fact that cancer is not a positive thing. Being realistic about an illness like
cancer or ADHD doesn't mean we can't become a better person in spite of
having that problem, but the cancer or the ADHD isn't actually positive in
and of itself.



See, that's pretty much what I was saying just above. The trouble with
your example is that not everyone with ADHD is so creative, or has the
ability to combine creativity with hyperfocus to be productive. Many of us
report that we start one thing, become distracted or give up for some
reason, and then a week later have to throw that idea in a drawer to make
room for the new idea we just had - and none of these ideas ever turns into
anything much.

Yes, it can happen, but those media articles tend to make it seem like a
moral failure (again) when we can't do something with those creative
tendencies (if we have them), both in our personal thinking and in what
others think of and expect from us.




I'll admit I don't see too many books or media articles about ADHD written
by those living in third world countries, and there have only been a handful
of posters on this forum who aren't from the US, the UK, Canada, France,
Netherlands, etc. So yeah, that's what I'm basing my opinion on.

It's not very likely that anyone in my family is going to move to Mongolia
or Africa or Iraq, or some other country where ADHD isn't recognized as a
very real health concern. Maybe it's not as impairing in those environments.
Maybe those places accept the odd quirks of ADHD as part of human nature.
Quote:
If they believe ADHD is something positive and creative and not a real
disorder, something that is used for an excuse to be lazy, they won't be
willing to accomodate and work with a kid that doesn't fit so well. ADHD
has long been seen as moral failing, and that's an even bigger shame. So
yeah, I have a strong response to media making it seem like ADHD is no
biggie and the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
I don't think the article was making it out to be 'no biggie though', nor are most articles that discuss potential positives because they often mention the difficulties as well.

Articles that explicitly call it a gift however or make it appear we don't require support - I completely agree with you.

Quote:
I think people can take an illness such a cancer and use it to make
themselves and even the world a better place. But that doesn't change the
fact that cancer is not a positive thing. Being realistic about an illness like
cancer or ADHD doesn't mean we can't become a better person in spite of
having that problem, but the cancer or the ADHD isn't actually positive in
and of itself.
Firstly, I'm not sure how ADHD is comparable to cancer...But anyway it depends where you want to look at it from. A member of my family said that her life began when she was diagnosed with cancer. The chemotherapy didn't worry her and neither did death. Her family come together after decades of arguments, she rid her fears because fear was pointless and stopping her from doing all the things she wanted to do.

If the factor of death and pain is irrelevant for her, where are the negatives in having it?

Quote:
See, that's pretty much what I was saying just above. The trouble with
your example is that not everyone with ADHD is so creative, or has the
ability to combine creativity with hyperfocus to be productive.
It's not a trouble with my example at all because my example doesn't require all people with ADHD to be creative.
Quote:
Many of us
report that we start one thing, become distracted or give up for some
reason, and then a week later have to throw that idea in a drawer to make
room for the new idea we just had - and none of these ideas ever turns into
anything much
I do that, why is that a negative? Does it really matter that they wern't followed through? I'll find that i'll follow through 1 idea out of 100, but i've had 100 ideas and the 1 that goes through will be the best, the one that's managed to keep my attention.

Plus, I learn a lot by following all these random ideas. I decided to write a home automation system for my house which is only half complete. But at least I learnt a lot about the electronics I can use and the style of programming - skills that could still be later applied in my life, so completeting it doesn't matter.

Quote:
Yes, it can happen, but those media articles tend to make it seem like a
moral failure (again) when we can't do something with those creative
tendencies (if we have them), both in our personal thinking and in what
others think of and expect from us.
I think that highlights the problem right there. What people expect from us.

They expect us to be a square peg that fits into a round hole, I get depressed when I can't successfully bow to other people's expectations.

I've just got back from an ADHD conference and one of the strongest messages was to persevere with what we want to do, not with the expectations of others. It's also what i've learnt from my ADHD coach. People expect everything to be clean, neat and tidy. I can't do that for ****, and in fact, I really don't care about my mess, it's the rest of the world that does and i've started learning to say "That's your problem and you're issue, not mine".

Quote:
It's not very likely that anyone in my family is going to move to Mongolia
or Africa or Iraq, or some other country where ADHD isn't recognized as a
very real health concern. Maybe it's not as impairing in those environments.
Maybe those places accept the odd quirks of ADHD as part of human nature.
I certainly found that in Africa and Costa Rica! . Plus, there was no time/plans there! I never had such a re-energizing holiday!

"What time are we going snorkelling?"
"Tiko time" (means, whenever, happens when it happens...and that's a phrase part of their culture! Timeblindness - no longer a problem!)
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  #108  
Old 10-18-13, 06:44 AM
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Re: ADD = asset

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADD me View Post
Well, my life is still full of forgetfulness and distractibility, even though I haven't lost my car keys in months.

If ADHD is a neuro developmental disorder, as is currently understood, then no matter which culture you are in, ISTM there would still be difficulties for those with it.

I noticed that, in the "gift do ADHD" materials I have read, the gifts appear AFTER you've had appropriate therapy and learned to manage your life better. And the gifts themselves are pretty much the same as the gifts of the population at large. I remain neither impressed or convinced.
Examples? I've not noticed that pattern and it would be interesting to look at.
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  #109  
Old 10-18-13, 08:24 AM
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Re: ADD = asset

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADD me View Post
Well, my life is still full of forgetfulness and distractibility, even though I haven't lost my car keys in months.

If ADHD is a neuro developmental disorder, as is currently understood, then no matter which culture you are in, ISTM there would still be difficulties for those with it.

I noticed that, in the "gift do ADHD" materials I have read, the gifts appear AFTER you've had appropriate therapy and learned to manage your life better. And the gifts themselves are pretty much the same as the gifts of the population at large. I remain neither impressed or convinced.
ADDme, great post as always. I just want to make sure it was apparent, my post to Flory was dripping with sarcasm. Just so I'm not misunderstood.
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  #110  
Old 10-18-13, 11:13 AM
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Re: ADD = asset

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADD me View Post
Well, my life is still full of forgetfulness and distractibility, even though I haven't lost my car keys in months.

If ADHD is a neuro developmental disorder, as is currently understood, then no matter which culture you are in, ISTM there would still be difficulties for those with it.

I noticed that, in the "gift do ADHD" materials I have read, the gifts appear AFTER you've had appropriate therapy and learned to manage your life better. And the gifts themselves are pretty much the same as the gifts of the population at large. I remain neither impressed or convinced.
I probably disagree on that actually, do you have any articles to back that up at all? There's research showing that ADHDers in tribes flourished and infact tribes whom had ADHDers in them did far better.

From experience of being out in Africa I can definitely see why this was the case. You didn't even have to remember to bring your shoes! Let alone phone, keys, purse or any other junk. You didn't need to have a concept of time. Information isn't passed down via schools, it's taught via play. You learnt to hunt by hunting, not by copying down notes in a class. And planning? Never any planning required, you live in the moment making choices there and then that will affect your tribes survival.
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  #111  
Old 10-18-13, 11:56 AM
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Re: ADD = asset

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Originally Posted by AshT View Post
..ADHDers in tribes flourished and infact tribes whom had ADHDers in them did far better...From experience of being out in Africa I can definitely see why this was the case.
As long as the ADHD'er had an NT'er close by to help him find his way back home,.. and remind him where he saw that fresh water stream. Our environment determines everything, and in our case I wouldn't argue with you that our modern world makes ADHD worse.

In any environment, for those who believe ADHD comes with "gifts", they are at best a luxury at the expense of survival necessities.

The idea that ADHD is a gift is like saying aspergers is a gift bc of the association with high intelligence. Just like only a very small minority of Aspies have high IQ or academic performance, most ADHD'ers experience no gifts.
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Last edited by Stevuke79; 10-18-13 at 12:14 PM.. Reason: corrected a spelling error, added bold and italic
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  #112  
Old 10-18-13, 12:13 PM
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Re: ADD = asset

For me, constantly being bombarded by a million random thoughts (and not all of them are amusing or interesting), having no self control whatsoever, and constantly needing stimulation so I don't lose the will to live, just isn't very pleasant. I don't think, it would be in any culture or with any life style.
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  #113  
Old 10-18-13, 12:19 PM
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Re: ADD = asset

Wish I could "thank" that post twice.
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  #114  
Old 10-18-13, 05:08 PM
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Re: ADD = asset

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Originally Posted by Stevuke79 View Post
As long as the ADHD'er had an NT'er close by to help him find his way back home,.. and remind him where he saw that fresh water stream. Our environment determines everything, and in our case I wouldn't argue with you that our modern world makes ADHD worse.

In any environment, for those who believe ADHD comes with "gifts", they are at best a luxury at the expense of survival necessities.

The idea that ADHD is a gift is like saying aspergers is a gift bc of the association with high intelligence. Just like only a very small minority of Aspies have high IQ or academic performance, most ADHD'ers experience no gifts.
Imo, the whole notion of 'Gift' is horrible. It seems to imply that we are better than other people and I hate that outlook and disagree with the use of 'gift' for various reasons. As a population, I think we all need to work together to help each other overcome the positives and negatives of each other's personality traits.

Quote:
As long as the ADHD'er had an NT'er close by to help him find his way back home,.. and remind him where he saw that fresh water stream. Our environment determines everything, and in our case I wouldn't argue with you that our modern world makes ADHD worse.
That's if the NT can keep up with us running off everywhere! Haha .

...you're not going to forget where a stream is if you visit it every day, the environment becomes your home. Do you get lost in your house? Since when does ADHD come with a poor sense of direction :S? I have a family of ADHDers who used to break out of their house together at midnight(lol) and play in the forest for hours - they always found their way home, and at night-time too. Am I missing something in your example?

Do you have any articles to suggest that ADHDers in other cultures are at an equal disadvantage btw? I think you mentioned you did and I'd be interested in reading them . At the moment there's only one portion of research suggestion there are pro's, to the ADHDer and the whole tribe(although of course you can't conclude anything from just one research project).

Quote:
The idea that ADHD is a gift is like saying aspergers is a gift bc of the association with high intelligence. Just like only a very small minority of Aspies have high IQ or academic performance, most ADHD'ers experience no gifts.
There are plenty of Aspie's that refer to their condition as a gift and not for the reasons of high IQ :s. A ridiculously strong ability to pay attention to details is one of them. But ofc it comes at the expense of seeing 'the big picture' (and I believe it's the opposite for us here).

Also, interesting, what do you define as 'experiencing a gift'? What would contribute as 'a gift'?
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  #115  
Old 10-18-13, 05:15 PM
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Re: ADD = asset

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Originally Posted by Fuzzy12 View Post
For me, constantly being bombarded by a million random thoughts (and not all of them are amusing or interesting), having no self control whatsoever, and constantly needing stimulation so I don't lose the will to live, just isn't very pleasant. I don't think, it would be in any culture or with any life style.
I can only go on my experiences in Africa..but there was definitely lots stimulation...white water rafting, shark caging, bungee jumping, roads without rules. Best time of my life and genuinely didn't feel I even had ADHD - didn't need my meds at all. Oh and the animals!!

Perhaps if I stayed their longer and the routine and environment became less 'new' it would have been different. But I can't draw conclusions from just my experiences of having ADHD there. I'm sure there will be others who can offer an alternative.
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  #116  
Old 10-18-13, 05:52 PM
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Re: ADD = asset

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Originally Posted by AshT View Post
Do you get lost in your house? Since when does ADHD come with a poor sense of direction :S? I have a family of ADHDers who used to break out of their house together at midnight(lol) and play in the forest for hours - they always found their way home, and at night-time too. Am I missing something in your example?
Poor sense of directions/spacial reasoning is a classic ADHD symptom. Listed specifically in DSM. (Though DSM IV, DSM V just says spacial skills I believe.). That's not the same thing as being familiar with a layout, like my house or the woods near your house. Also, not every ADHD'er has every symptom.

Quote:
Do you have any articles to suggest that ADHDers in other cultures are at an equal disadvantage btw? I think you mentioned you did and I'd be interested in reading them
No I've not read any thing specific to different cultures. I would also imagine that in different cultures, ADHD may affect you more or less.

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There are plenty of Aspie's that refer to their condition as a gift
Feel free to take their word for it. There are people who feel ADHD is also a gift and not a disability. There are people who feel deafness is not a disability and are outraged at the idea of curing certain types of deafness where it's possible. There is no question that SOME Aspie's, as well as SOME ADHD'ers, have unique abilities which can legitimately be linked in part to their disability. There can even be people who's lives are enriched by their disability. Music and math are good examples.

Quote:
Also, interesting, what do you define as 'experiencing a gift'? What would contribute as 'a gift'?
For the purposes of these conversations, a gift is anything with any sort of upside at all which is not overall, a disability. Your next question should be: what is a disability? I'm comfortable with the ADA's definition:
An individual with a disability is defined by the ADA as a person who has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities, ...
http://www.ada.gov/cguide.htm
paragraph 2
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  #117  
Old 10-18-13, 06:34 PM
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Re: ADD = asset

All those stimulating bungee jumping, white water rafting are kinda western things. What's being described isn't "Africa" its doing white persons adventure sports in a black persons country.

Read Jared Diamond latest book "The World until Yesterday" to find out what things were like in tribal cultures and also why ADDers probably didn't fit in that well in most cultures that had even a modicum of agriculture or herding.... there's a very interesting section where he describes almost losing his life as a result of what could be called ADDery behaviour in a couple of local boatmen.

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  #118  
Old 10-19-13, 10:39 AM
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Re: ADD = asset

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All those stimulating bungee jumping, white water rafting are kinda western things. What's being described isn't "Africa" its doing white persons adventure sports in a black persons country.

Read Jared Diamond latest book "The World until Yesterday" to find out what things were like in tribal cultures and also why ADDers probably didn't fit in that well in most cultures that had even a modicum of agriculture or herding.... there's a very interesting section where he describes almost losing his life as a result of what could be called ADDery behaviour in a couple of local boatmen.

kilted


I'm aware . That was one part of what we did whilst we were in South Africa which is much more developed. I was just commenting on that.

I also spent 6 weeks in Tanzania in villages/tribes doing community projects and then onto teaching. We lived as close as the people (within reason, obviously we couldn't drink their water and we had mosquito nets) as possible.
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Old 10-19-13, 01:52 PM
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Re: ADD = asset

I'm trying to make the point that "being different" in a tribal culture is not pleasant and has never been pleasant. There's a reason one doesn't see people with obvious mental health issues in Africa...... and it all looks fine and dandy when we go on safari....

Tanzanian psychiatric care is almost non-existent. Part of this recent BBC article is about how people with mental health issues are put into cages with hyenas... to "cure them"... unfortunately the cure occasionally results in an extremely nasty death.

Not for the faint hearted http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24539989

It also describes the appalling nature of psychiatric care in Somalia, a standard of care which extends across much of Africa. Chaining is common in Kenya and Tanzania. Even if you're comparatively well off, mental health is so little understood, indeed feared that something that would be considered mild in the western world can easily result in ostracism and terrible discrimination.

ADHD is co-morbid with more serious psychological issues.... and I am sure we can all imagine how suffering such discrimination and abuse for being a bit different could easily trigger a slide into the pit of hell from where there would be little chance of escape.

It's not the ADHD that's an asset.... it's where your born....and to whom.

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  #120  
Old 10-19-13, 02:59 PM
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Re: ADD = asset

Kilted, thank you for sharing that link. It's very sad to see that mental illness
is still so misunderstood and feared in some places. It isn't that long ago that
people in the US were locked in basements and attics and institutions when
they had mental illness. Less than 50 years ago.

I'm so tired of this myth that western society causes mental illness or is the
only society that doesn't accept it as part of normal life. Bah! Humbug!
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ADD is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what you know.
-RUSSELL A. BARKLEY, PH.D.


As far as I know, there is nothing positive about ADHD that people can't have w out ADHD. ~ ADD me
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