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Old 05-21-10, 01:37 PM
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Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

Please check in, I would like to know who I can best connect to on certain matters. Please give a denomination, or at least whether you are catholic or not.
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Old 05-21-10, 03:19 PM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

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Please check in, I would like to know who I can best connect to on certain matters. Please give a denomination, or at least whether you are catholic or not.
Catholic here!

How may I be of service?
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Old 05-24-10, 10:03 AM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

with everything, I find my spiritually challenging to incorporate, any advice.
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Old 05-24-10, 04:30 PM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

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with everything, I find my spiritually challenging to incorporate, any advice.
I'm afraid you'll have to be a bit more specific. I.e., what's your affliction, and what about the practice of your faith do you find burdensome? (refraining from sin, Mass attendence, the "dark night of the soul", the "problem of evil" (bad things happening to good people and v.v.), difficulty in prayer, difficulty in charity, etc.

In the meantime, let me give you a "mystical" answer. If you view spirituality as something to "incorporate" into your life, perhaps you're going about it the wrong way. That is to say, faith is not something to be adopted, or put on like a mask. Faith is not a persona or a part of you, like being a husband, father, American, member of a political party -- it is the font, from which every part of your being is sustained. It is not an afterthought -- i.e. "I suppose I should do something religious now".

It is thought itself. We are the "thought" of God. Leibniz famously said that if God ceased "thinking" about us for merely a second, the Universe would cease to exist; it is only with God's perpetual sustenence that our very being comes to... well, "be".

What special problems to ADD'ers face?

If you're like me, you lack "discipline". You fall into sin and temptation readily (e.g. sloth, envy, lust, dispair), and perhaps you avoid the Sacrament of Confession because of it. Don't. Even if you feel you're unworthy, keep going to Confession. Weekly, if possible. Absolution is matchless. If only we could be given such a "fresh start" in other areas of our lives.

You don't seem to have those sorts of "religious experiences" that others have. You try to pray during Mass, but you don't "feel" anything. You get bored. And if you attend Latin Mass or Byzantine Divine Liturgy, you get bored for 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours. Try this: don't worry about praying (let the priest pray for you); concentrate on listening. Listen to the chants or songs, hear the bells, smell the incense, study the readings, internalize the homilies, meditate on the statutes or icons, follow Christ through the Stations of the Cross. I'm not one prone to regular "religious" experiences, but when I tried this last Sunday at the Mass of Pentacost, and simply listened, I was truly moved.

But prayer does help with discipline. My weeks where I manage to say the Rosary every day always coincide with my most productive weeks.

Read the writing of the Church Fathers, saints, theologians; read the Bible. Learn Greek or Hebrew if you're so inclined. Start with Psalms and read straight through the Wisdom books.

I'm just brainstorming at this point; but the point is -- hang in there.
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Old 05-26-10, 12:38 AM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

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Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep View Post
What special problems to ADD'ers face?

If you're like me, you lack "discipline". You fall into sin and temptation readily (e.g. sloth, envy, lust, dispair), and perhaps you avoid the Sacrament of Confession because of it. Don't. Even if you feel you're unworthy, keep going to Confession. Weekly, if possible. Absolution is matchless. If only we could be given such a "fresh start" in other areas of our lives.
Your statement does not line up with church teaching, you give a moral diagnosis of symptoms which while common is simply unfortunate.

People with disabilities do not need absolution for having them. They actually deserve understanding and compassion.


http://www.usccb.org/prolife/persons...bilities.shtml


A statement directly from the RCC bishops.

And from the Orthodox

http://www.oca.org/RHArticle.asp?SID=15&ArticleID=251
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Old 05-26-10, 08:37 AM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

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Originally Posted by ginniebean View Post
Your statement does not line up with church teaching, you give a moral diagnosis of symptoms which, while common, is simply unfortunate.

People with disabilities do not need absolution for having them. They actually deserve understanding and compassion.
These are both excellent links; thank you for sharing them with us. Here we have the informed and compassionate position of the USCCB, and of a practising, highly-educated Orthodox who herself has children with disabilities. Both guided by the Holy Spirit, I'm sure.

I hope my comments haven't been misconstrued, so I'll take you up on your suggestion on my profile to clarify somewhat. It is very likely that my position was inartfully articulated.

The definition of "sin", as I understand it, is (1) the performance of an act that is considered "sinful" in and of itself (2) with thefull consent of the will and (3) with knowledge that the act is sinful. So, I know that murder is wrong, I make the conscious decision to load my pistol, take aim, and fire at a passerby, and as a result thereof, the passerby dies -- sin.

Now, what I believe you're getting at is the second element of sin -- "full consent of the will". That is, what about ADD? Doesn't ADD sap our will, wear down our resolve, suck the energy from us? Of course it does.

There are two hypothetical extremes on the continuum. (a) You could say that ADD is a social construct -- a myth -- that we who stumble stumble because of our own human failings, and that to say otherwise permits the pedophile to exculpate himself by saying "I couldn't help it -- my brain's just wired that way".

Or, (b) you could say that it is impossible for an ADD'er to sin because he is seized in the grip of his disorder and can never wilfully commit a sinful act because his "will" is wrecked by his disorder.

Now, both of these positions are silly. The truth has to lie somewhere in between. There are sinful acts that an ADD'er performs that are simply beyond his control -- like the drug addict or alcoholic, the habit has "taken over" and he simply cannot do otherwise. I miss a deadline or birthday or what have you -- not because I'm a selfish inconsiderate type -- but because I simply missed it.

But clearly it is possible for me, or OP, or you, to sin. If I blow off an entire afternoon, it's between God and me whether it's because my executive functioning is so fried that I can't muster up the "will" to do my work, or whether I have wilfully sinned.

Moreover, ADD, unfortunately, puts us in the "near occasion of sin" more often than is the case with NT's. It's not fair, but we simply have to deal with it. ADD is not a license to give in to temptation wherever it may arise. That's dangerous and fatalistic.

If I have sinned, I need absolution and spiritual nourishment -- the Sacraments, prayer, penance, meditation.

If I have not sinned, I need therapy, meds, experimentation with different "life skills", a timer, an understanding spouse or employer, etc. But I also need the Sacraments, prayer, meditation, and spiritual nourishment.

My advice wasn't directed to NT's or others who would "condemn" an ADD'er's putatively sinful "act", it was to the ADD'er who is struggling both through sin and through his disorder.

Faith gives you strength for both.
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Old 05-27-10, 09:34 PM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

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Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep View Post
The definition of "sin", as I understand it, is (1) the performance of an act that is considered "sinful" in and of itself (2) with thefull consent of the will and (3) with knowledge that the act is sinful. So, I know that murder is wrong, I make the conscious decision to load my pistol, take aim, and fire at a passerby, and as a result thereof, the passerby dies -- sin.

Now, what I believe you're getting at is the second element of sin -- "full consent of the will". That is, what about ADD? Doesn't ADD sap our will, wear down our resolve, suck the energy from us? Of course it does.

There are two hypothetical extremes on the continuum. (a) You could say that ADD is a social construct -- a myth -- that we who stumble stumble because of our own human failings, and that to say otherwise permits the pedophile to exculpate himself by saying "I couldn't help it -- my brain's just wired that way".

Or, (b) you could say that it is impossible for an ADD'er to sin because he is seized in the grip of his disorder and can never wilfully commit a sinful act because his "will" is wrecked by his disorder.

You give two options and neither of them would be a reasonable argument nor would either of them be an argument I'd make. My own option would be that moral diagnosis is dangerous ground where even angels should fear to tread. It provides absolutely no benefit to the person with ADHD to ruminate over that which they cannot personally verify. The symptoms of ADHD do not produce an immediate pain, not even one of conscience, (big clue here) which would give indication of missing a mark. (Harmartia)


The complete lack of notification from conscience, until after the fact, suggests that any lack of control is not 'willful' but rather a product of brain function. Without such internal cue I don't see the benefit of instilling yet more self doubt into an existence rife with it.


Quote:
Unfortunately, most people believe that self-discipline, self-control, and will-power are entirely at our own command. Therefore (those) without self-control are viewed either as not wanting to control themselves(They are viewed as undisciplined). Frankly, this view is out of date. Science is showing us that there are neurological (brain) factors that contribute to self control and willpower, along with learning and upbringing. And when these brain systems are functioning improperly or become damaged, normal levels of self control are impossible. Those with ADHD are such people. They have a biologically based problem with self control and the execution of their will-power.



To study ADHD is to gain a glimpse of the will itself and how it comes to be so powerful an agent in self-control. ....As a result, to have ADHD is to have a disabled will and consequently a future in doubt. "Taking Charge of ADHD" Russell Barkley
Biblical documents are essentially spiritual in nature and that is the target of their effectiveness. The workaday (work ethic) virtues are protestant in nature and do not translate themselves to the spiritual nature of sin. One could make note that choosing the life of an itinerant preacher, a monk or a contemplative is unproductive, should one choose to apply this type of moralism. Productivity is not virtuous in and of itself and this is clearly indicated in scripture. (Matt 16:26) That our culture finds virtue and value in continuous productivity and then bases moral determinations on that basis is ignorant and irrelevant.



I do not see a lack of spiritual awareness within the ADHD population, in fact quite the opposite. What I tend to see is a precocious spirituality that remains untapped in large part because of lack of direction. Our culture doesn't value spirituality except as a means of regeneration for productivity.



Quote:
Now, both of these positions are silly. The truth has to lie somewhere in between. There are sinful acts that an ADD'er performs that are simply beyond his control -- like the drug addict or alcoholic, the habit has "taken over" and he simply cannot do otherwise. I miss a deadline or birthday or what have you -- not because I'm a selfish inconsiderate type -- but because I simply missed it.
ADHD is not a problem of habituation, rather it's a product of the natural state of the ADHD brain.

Quote:
But clearly it is possible for me, or OP, or you, to sin. If I blow off an entire afternoon, it's between God and me whether it's because my executive functioning is so fried that I can't muster up the "will" to do my work, or whether I have wilfully sinned.
You assume that there is will to muster when in fact this may not be the case. The matter becomes one of speculation which I'd consider an even greater time waster. Until such time as the knowledge of adhd is complete, there is the risk of damage to the individual. The evidence is in that damage is presently the case. The risk of adding to anothers burdens in pharasaical fashion is immense. The possibility of inventing superficial criteria that acts to "bar the gate" instead of promoting an environment where encouragement fosters growth is a high probability.


Quote:
Moreover, ADD, unfortunately, puts us in the "near occasion of sin" more often than is the case with NT's. It's not fair, but we simply have to deal with it. ADD is not a license to give in to temptation wherever it may arise. That's dangerous and fatalistic.

If I have sinned, I need absolution and spiritual nourishment -- the Sacraments, prayer, penance, meditation.
Absolutely disagree. The arbitrarily assigned criteria of what acts will be named "sin" is much more often the product of social disapproval and weighted by a bias of benefit to a social system that in itself is deviant than any actual transgression. THAT ASIDE.....


I find this sort of statement quite appalling from a theological perspective.

So let me take this apart.

In order for, "ADD, unfortunately, puts us in the "near occasion of sin" more often than is the case with NT's" to be true it would mean that those born with genetic ADHD (and even those who aquire it) would have to be born (or become) a deformed image of God.


The only thing that can deform the image within us is sin because doctrinally speaking, sin is the only thing that can cause such deformation. You are suggesting that those with ADHD are born filled with sin. This is an impossibility theologically speaking.

This type of thinking is so stigmatizing that any thinking or feeling person needs to reject it outright. It discredits individuals based on genetics or personal tragedy.


What I do see however, is a form of scrupulosity. You've invented an orthodoxy around this theory that results in the imputing of sin to an involuntary act or create doubt that will inevitably leads to scrupulosity in others.


Scrupulosity is a belief that work or output that is anything less than perfect is unacceptable. It's neurotic and worse, self inflicted or inflicted from social forces. If anything scrupulosity is a post-morbid result of having ADHD in a population quick to whip out a moral etiology for an action.


The other reason that I find such a theory appalling is because it works to the negation of spiritual integrity and dignity for those with ADHD and any other neurological difference. It's documented fact that the symptoms of ADHD lead to isolation and suffering, how can such a theory possibly have any therapeutic value?


It's a theory that seeks to make people 'workable' rather than righteous.


Quote:
If I have not sinned, I need therapy, meds, experimentation with different "life skills", a timer, an understanding spouse or employer, etc. But I also need the Sacraments, prayer, meditation, and spiritual nourishment.

My advice wasn't directed to NT's or others who would "condemn" an ADD'er's putatively sinful "act", it was to the ADD'er who is struggling both through sin and through his disorder.

Faith gives you strength for both.
I understand your intention and in no way am attempting to cast it in any light other than well intended. The problem is that the result of this type of reasoning is suffering and for the sufferer... isolation, loneliness and depression. His suffering increases tenfold.


As an alternative. my suggestion is to work on increasing the sensitivity of conscience in order that the distinction becomes evident. This, at a very basic level encourages virtue and does not abrogate responsibility. It also fosters an environment of spiritual support rather than condemnation.

Pax Domini
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Old 06-01-10, 05:39 PM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

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You give two options and neither of them would be a reasonable argument, nor would either of them be an argument I'd make.
Right. We both acknowledge that both extremes are... well, "extreme". But we don't quite meet in the middle, and I think it's because we're approaching the question (i.e., ADD vis à vis sinfulness) from two different perspectives. Your raison d'être is to combat those who say that ADD is "lazyness" or "all in your mind". Telling ADD'ers that their condition is sinful does not help them (us), makes them (us) despondent, and spirals ever-downwards into a depressive state of apathy and lack of motivation. That is a "bad thing".

But I also have an axe to grind, and mine is that too many people throw up their hands and say: "the house is burning down, but the hose is way over there, and I have ADD, and I don't feel like picking up the hose right now, maybe later?" There is a temptation to lump every character flaw, misdeed and -- yes -- sin into the ADD diagnosis. That is to say, too many people say: "I can't be blamed for [x], I have ADD". That is also a "bad thing".

Quote:
My own option would be that moral diagnosis is dangerous ground where even angels should fear to tread. It provides absolutely no benefit to the person with ADHD to ruminate over that which they cannot personally verify. The symptoms of ADHD do not produce an immediate pain, not even one of conscience, (big clue here) which would give indication of missing a mark. (Hamartia)
So it was the Greeks that destroyed the difference between "unfortunate circumstance" and "sin." I knew it! I had no idea that "hamartia" (translated as "sin" in the New Testament) originated in Greek tragedy and the works of Aristotle (Thank you, Wikipedia).

Let us, then, re-create that difference. It is an important difference because an ADD'er is not immune to sin, and neither is every objectively sinful act actually sinful. The difference is in, as you pointed out "will".

Quote:
The complete lack of notification from conscience, until after the fact, suggests that any lack of control is not 'willful' but rather a product of brain function. Without such internal cue I don't see the benefit of instilling yet more self doubt into an existence rife with it.
I'll agree with you there that inadvertant ADD symptoms, like forgetting things, produces no "notification from conscience" until after the fact. But when I stare at that blinking voice message after I get back from court and decide to go on ADDForums instead of answering it, knowing that it might be a time-sensitive voice message, trust me, I have been "notified." So I have 2 options: (1) tell myself I have (am, am defined by, subsist in, etc.) ADD, and therefore I have no wilpower, so my client or whoever called me can just take a walk until I'm bloody well ready to answer my voice message; or (2) err on the side of caution, and tell myself that maybe my willpower is sapped, and maybe the "avoidance" tendency is just too strong, but what if it's not? Why not try my hardest, say a rosary, go to Confession, book a trip to Lourdes -- whatever, and at least acknowledge that whatever I'm about to do might actually be sinful, and that maybe I can't blame my neurochemistry -- maybe I'm simply just about to be a jerk to someone.

Quote:
Biblical documents are essentially spiritual in nature and that is the target of their effectiveness. The workaday (work ethic) virtues are protestant in nature and do not translate themselves to the spiritual nature of sin. One could make note that choosing the life of an itinerant preacher, a monk or a contemplative is unproductive, should one choose to apply this type of moralism. Productivity is not virtuous in and of itself and this is clearly indicated in scripture. (Matt 16:26) That our culture finds virtue and value in continuous productivity and then bases moral determinations on that basis is ignorant and irrelevant.
See, as much as I like to blame the Protestants for all the world's problems (and don't get me wrong, I really do!; Max Weber being a particularly exceptional object of scorn), you can't go around "compartmentalizeing" faith. God is everything. He is the Alpha and Omega. The Bible and whatever other writings of faith are extant are meant to nourish us in every aspect of our lives. I have to listen to the "still small voice" at home, at work, with my wife, with my children, with my friends, with my clients -- everywhere. Not just in Church on Sunday.

Trust me, I don't idolize "work" for the sake of "work". But we do have a moral obligation to provide for our families and do work that benefits society, no? I don't have a Bible handy here at work, but I can bet you dollars to doughnuts, that your citation, Matt 16:26, is the one about God looking after the birds of the field and the flowers and whatnot, and why should we go around worrying about how we're going to provide for ourselves, amirite? Yes, true, we have to take on faith that God will provide. But as the old joke about the Rabbi who prayed to God to win the lottery for years and years -- you gotta buy a ticket first!

Quote:
I do not see a lack of spiritual awareness within the ADHD population, in fact quite the opposite. What I tend to see is a precocious spirituality that remains untapped in large part because of lack of direction. Our culture doesn't value spirituality except as a means of regeneration for productivity.
I'm with you there, as regards our culture's misplaced values. In my world, the mystics and the poets would take pride of place above the businessmen and bankers. Just look at the avant garde French, German, and American cinema from the first half of the 20th century; I'm thinking, specifically, Metropolis, by that German guy whose name I can't remeber at the moment.Also look at the Phenomenologists such as Heidegger -- who views alienation from our true ontological selves, apart from our "roles" in and usefulness to society, as perhaps the greatest evil.

The rat race is stupid, and "productivity" in and of itself (or worse yet, in service of the accumulation of unneccessary capital) is useless. I'm with you, girlfriend. But I also happen to like being a lawyer, and my bosses happen to like my putting in 1,500 billable hours a year, and my wife happens to like not working full time, and my children happen to like eating.

Quote:
ADHD is not a problem of habituation, rather it's a product of the natural state of the ADHD brain.
Ya ya, axons, dendtites, synapes, neurochemistry, I know, I know. But it has been proven that re-habituation can actually change your brain, it can effect physical changes to the brain itself. The mind - body arrow is not unidirectional. Maybe I'll never "learn" to hang my suits up consistently -- but does it hurt to try? Isn't there a danger of giving in to a fatalistic hell? Doesn't that in and of itself lead to depresseion, which leads to the spiral, etc.?

Quote:
You assume that there is will to muster when in fact this may not be the case. The matter becomes one of speculation which I'd consider an even greater time waster. Until such time as the knowledge of adhd is complete, there is the risk of damage to the individual. The evidence is in that damage is presently the case. The risk of adding to another's burdens in pharasaical fashion is immense. The possibility of inventing superficial criteria that acts to "bar the gate" instead of promoting an environment where encouragement fosters growth is a high probability.
Self-examination is never a waste of time. And "knowlege of ADHD" will never be complete. It is "damaging" to play the Pharisee and say: "Look at me (i.e., an NT), I can function this way in the world, you can too, and if you don't, burn in Hell, sinner!" That's not playing nice. But isn't it also just as bad to say -- "Don't worry about adhering to the tenets of your faith if you don't feel up to it."? We're not asking blind people to compete in a biatholon, we're only asking people (I am apparently "we" now, I dunno) to do what they're capable of.

Quote:
Absolutely disagree. The arbitrarily assigned criteria of what acts will be named "sin" is much more often the product of social disapproval and weighted by a bias of benefit to a social system that in itself is deviant than any actual transgression. THAT ASIDE.....
You're regressing the argument. No "act" is sinful per se. It must be (2) wilful and (3) with knowledge that the act is sinful.

Quote:
In order for, "ADD, unfortunately, puts us in the "near occasion of sin" more often than is the case with NT's" to be true it would mean that those born with genetic ADHD (and even those who aquire it) would have to be born (or become) a deformed image of God.
We all have our crosses to bear; some sins are easier for us to resist than others, and which sins these are varies from person to person. It doesn't somehow remove us from Grace, or make us "deformed". Even St. Paul had his "thorn" that he begged God to remove (he didn't). Maybe Paul was ADD? Who knows? Some are "born" lusting after pre-pubescent children. Doesn't make it right to have sex with children. Others are "born" with a bad temper, and the slightest insult can incite violent rage. Doesn't make it right to commit murder. I was "born" with ADD. Doesn't mean I can thumb my nose at God's commandments.

Quote:
The only thing that can deform the image within us is sin because doctrinally speaking, sin is the only thing that can cause such deformation. You are suggesting that those with ADHD are born filled with sin. This is an impossibility theologically speaking.
Sin is what removes us from God's presence. But we are not "born" "filled with sin". I am not suggesting so. But would you not agree that it is easier for an alcoholic to resist the first drink than the last? Sin can become a habit, and not just for ADD'ers, but for everyone. It takes some manner of spiritual discipline to get out of sinful habits.

Quote:
This type of thinking is so stigmatizing that any thinking or feeling person needs to reject it outright. It discredits individuals based on genetics or personal tragedy.
No. It gives people hope. With God, all things are possible. While I may never be able to strike a match on a wet bar of soap, there are things that I can do to improve myself as a human being and as a soul in the light of God. Trying to do good is always preferable than letting defeat tell you what you can and can't do.

Quote:
What I do see however, is a form of scrupulosity. You've invented an orthodoxy around this theory that results in the imputing of sin to an involuntary act or create doubt that will inevitably leads to scrupulosity in others.
No. An involuntary act is, by definition, not sinful.

Quote:
Scrupulosity is a belief that work or output that is anything less than perfect is unacceptable. It's neurotic and worse, self inflicted or inflicted from social forces. If anything scrupulosity is a post-morbid result of having ADHD in a population quick to whip out a moral etiology for an action.
Not all actions are of "moral" etiologies. Some are. Scrupulosity is neurotic, I agree. Realistically performing an examination of conscience, as we are required to do before the Sacrament of Confession is not.

Quote:
The other reason that I find such a theory appalling is because it works to the negation of spiritual integrity and dignity for those with ADHD and any other neurological difference. It's documented fact that the symptoms of ADHD lead to isolation and suffering, how can such a theory possibly have any therapeutic value?
Because it doesn't "judge". Only you and God can judge you. Personal responsibility provides hope. I cannot ever say whether any particular act commited by anyone but me is ever "sinful". But I know that if I don't answer that voicemail today, I have some examination to do.

Quote:
It's a theory that seeks to make people 'workable' rather than righteous.
No. Workable is for Max Weber. Righteous is for the Children of God.

Quote:
I understand your intention and in no way am attempting to cast it in any light other than well intended. The problem is that the result of this type of reasoning is suffering and for the sufferer... isolation, loneliness and depression. His suffering increases tenfold.
I would never intend for something I said to cause someone to say: "I am a moral failure, woe is me". That's not the point.

Quote:
As an alternative, my suggestion is to work on increasing the sensitivity of conscience in order that the distinction becomes evident. This, at a very basic level encourages virtue and does not abrogate responsibility. It also fosters an environment of spiritual support rather than condemnation.
See, this paragraph makes me think we might be speaking the same language, but just using different words. You admit that conscience is capable of discerning the "distinction", presumably between sin and non-sin, and that the "wisdom to know the difference", so to speak, is something that can be nurtured and improved. Striving for virtue and assumption of responsbility are all that can be asked of anyone.

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Old 06-02-10, 02:47 AM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

Im a practicing Pentacostal Christian,

and i consciously try really really hard every day to not resort to having to poke out my right eye that causes me to sin

And that's the important part. Conscious Thought. If i know.. than i know. I cant ignore that i know, and ride the coat tails of my neurological ailment to scoot me through a life believing i have no ethical or moral responsibility. My heart and soul is not different because i have ADD. Neither is my ability to consciously choose. God knows this, and so do I. However I might be a bit slow on the uptake, that doesnt mean that i am not conscious of a mistake. Notwithstanding I am able to bring unconscious behaviors that i am conscious of, into consciousness - to change, consciously. If i know (whether it is a conscious, or unconscious mistake - I know), than i am responsible for what i do with that knowledge. And if i know enough to make a decision, than i already did.

In all honesty, the fact that I have ADD, gives me one more reason to be humble in the eyes of my Lord, because it forces me to be actively closer to Him in my thoughts and actions. And for that I am joyful - though i'll be the first to admit i not always am

ADD does not = Morally Deficient.

Neither does it give us the excuse to be our own Enablers.

Its a matter of Discipline. (my spine straightened too when i typed that - but seriously lets get over ourselves for a second. Just because we're ADD, doesnt give us the right to milk some kind of Moral Welfare)

Christ's parable with the 3 servants (Mathew 25:14-28) is a perfect example for this whole ADD/God conundrum. For anyone that is not familiar with the parable, in summary:

A Master gave 3 servants a quantity of money. 2 servants worked hard to invest the money that their master gave them, and both made returns based on their efforts. The 3rd did nothing with the share he was responsible for, and instead buried it so that he would have at least not lost any money.

What we can learn from this parable in the topic of the OPs post (in the context of ADD, Moral mistakes, and God), is that God sees our effort, far above and beyond our shortcomings. In this parable we can substitute the Money that was given to the servants (us) as .. well anything. But for us lets substitute Effort. And when i substitute Effort, i dont mean to say that we dont Try, but not always are we Trying to Correct. And it is our perseverance to continue to Try to Correct that is recognized - not our failures in doing so. However when reflecting on the parable of the 3 servants, the servant that did nothing with the money he was given (he didnt try, didnt try to correct) was cast out of the Master's household.

I think its important to note, (and remember), that we as Christians (or not Christians), have a responsibility to hold ourselves accountable for our thoughts and actions - and this has little to specifically do with being ADD.. that responsibility does not change. And we also have a responsibility to ourselves (and to God if it applies for you), to continue to try and remold the caste that we function from. And this takes time, and though its easy to get frustrated when we dont see the results, or continue to see the amount of unsuccessful attempts, we need to continue the struggle.

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Old 06-02-10, 06:19 AM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

[quote=Nyarlathotep;889447]
Quote:
But I also have an axe to grind, and mine is that too many people throw up their hands and say: "the house is burning down, but the hose is way over there, and I have ADD, and I don't feel like picking up the hose right now, maybe later?" There is a temptation to lump every character flaw, misdeed and -- yes -- sin into the ADD diagnosis. That is to say, too many people say: "I can't be blamed for [x], I have ADD". That is also a "bad thing".
Well, first, show me some concrete evidence that people with adhd use the diagnosis as an excuse? I have NEVER seen one person say "I have add so I get a free pass" I hear a lot of other people talking about "the many" but without evidence except perhaps their own cynicism.

Interestingly enough, you can find the exact same thing said about EVERY disability. Could it be, that there is an unreasonable suspicion of malingering surrounding disability? You made the statement that ADDers are more prone to sin because of ADHD. I say prove it.

Let's look at some facts. People with ADHD do not ask for accomadations they are entitled to under the human rights act. Why? Because they don't really deserve them or need them? No. But wait, these are the same people who are far too often willing to use ADD as an excuse that they can't do something. If that were true wouldn't the 'many' be jumping on that bandwagon?

People with ADHD underestimate the influence and impact of ADHD on their lives. As evidenced in study after study. How can it be that on the one hand there is this underestimation and then an overestimation of abrogation? You can't have it both ways.


People with ADHD are often guilt ridden, quick to take responsibility for an act even when it isn't their fault. Quick to apologise and make amends for even the slightest of offenses. Even if the offence is a complete and utter misinterpretation of their action.

Yet these same people are quick to scam for an out?




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So it was the Greeks that destroyed the difference between "unfortunate circumstance" and "sin." I knew it! I had no idea that "hamartia" (translated as "sin" in the New Testament) originated in Greek tragedy and the works of Aristotle (Thank you, Wikipedia).
Paul spoke fluent greek so I have great doubt that his chosen words would be modified. Historical documents verify that the text were adhered to zealously. Blame Aristotle if you will but clearly Paul didn't have an issue with using harmartia.

You appear to care for the use of the word Hasebeia which implies intention and an actively doing something you know is wrong. Frankly, I don't care to use this particular word because it's impossible to know the intentions of another. And it leads to petty moralizing which I find distasteful. There are enough gladys kravitz's in the world.

Another issue I have with this using intent, ADHD doesn't imply cognitive deficit but rather performance deficit. You may very well know but if the command to "do" dies before it can be executed which is the case with adhd ( and yes this has been scientifically shown) you run into shakey ground with that particular word Hasebeia because YOU DON"T KNOW if intention is present or not even the person doing or not doing the act doesn't know. My entire point was that the person with ADHD can't know because there is no associated signal that lets us know the difference between a moment of impairment and one that is not.

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Let us, then, re-create that difference. It is an important difference because an ADD'er is not immune to sin, and neither is every objectively sinful act actually sinful. The difference is in, as you pointed out "will".
The discussion was never whether ADDers are immune to sin, rather my objection was to you saying that ADDers are more likely to find occaision of sin.



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I'll agree with you there that inadvertant ADD symptoms, like forgetting things, produces no "notification from conscience" until after the fact. But when I stare at that blinking voice message after I get back from court and decide to go on ADDForums instead of answering it, knowing that it might be a time-sensitive voice message, trust me, I have been "notified."
If your job requires that you always check your messages in case a time sensitive issue arises then that is where the compensation of routines comes in. People with ADHD develop many ways to compensate and make their symptoms less obvious and less impacting. Children with ADHD develop compensatory strategies because there is penalty for being different. You won't find one ADDer who was just 'too lazy' to compensate. You might find a thoroughly despondent and demoralized ADDer who has given up when they have tried every strategy possible and they still haven't worked. It is more than possible to bar the gate for people like this, and it doesn't matter if that gate is social acceptance, job success, life skills or spiritual matters. It can and does happen.




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So I have 2 options: (1) tell myself I have (am, am defined by, subsist in, etc.) ADD, and therefore I have no wilpower, so my client or whoever called me can just take a walk until I'm bloody well ready to answer my voice message; or (2) err on the side of caution, and tell myself that maybe my willpower is sapped, and maybe the "avoidance" tendency is just too strong, but what if it's not? Why not try my hardest, say a rosary, go to Confession, book a trip to Lourdes -- whatever, and at least acknowledge that whatever I'm about to do might actually be sinful, and that maybe I can't blame my neurochemistry -- maybe I'm simply just about to be a jerk to someone.
Or maybe you're reaching into perfectionism? Why you scoundrel! Surely we shall have to critique every last act for it's breach of sound professional judgement? The 'but what if it's not" is the adhd cryptonite. I can tell you that in my experience, people with adhd far underestimate the impact of adhd on their lives and this is born out in scientific study. It isn't until around 40 yrs of age that many with adhd even really start to grasp just how much it does impact them.


Neuro-chemistry is misleading because it's not just neurochemistry but neuro-architecture. The differences may be slight but they are not insignificant. When people hear neuro-chemistry it can be associated with transience and with ADHD that's not the case, you're not going to have times when you feel well and times when you don't as is the case with depression. (mostly) There is no once I could do this and now I can't, or once I felt good and now I don't. I feel perfectly fine all the time! This is my normal. Being able to judge just how much it causes me to deviate? I have no idea and my guess is you don't either.



So, rather than assume that people are malingering what about giving the benefit of the doubt.

Why not try my hardest you say? Clearly your advice is to 'try harder' and the implication being that we're not trying hard enough? How do you know? We have to work much harder than others, we're using up energy compensating and using work around that others do not have to.

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you can't go around "compartmentalizeing" faith. God is everything. He is the Alpha and Omega. The Bible and whatever other writings of faith are extant are meant to nourish us in every aspect of our lives. I have to listen to the "still small voice" at home, at work, with my wife, with my children, with my friends, with my clients -- everywhere. Not just in Church on Sunday.
Why am I compartmentalizing? Be in the world but not of it. Is this compartmentalization? My point was that 'sin' is a theological and spiritual construct. It's contextual to having a spiritual aim. All I was saying is that our culture overvalues performance, 'success' and productivity. This bias does bleed into ones understanding and certainly could even be considered neurotic. To judge ourselves or others based on this false estimate is a given.

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Trust me, I don't idolize "work" for the sake of "work". But we do have a moral obligation to provide for our families and do work that benefits society, no? I don't have a Bible handy here at work, but I can bet you dollars to doughnuts, that your citation, Matt 16:26, is the one about God looking after the birds of the field and the flowers and whatnot, and why should we go around worrying about how we're going to provide for ourselves, amirite? Yes, true, we have to take on faith that God will provide. But as the old joke about the Rabbi who prayed to God to win the lottery for years and years -- you gotta buy a ticket first!
Do you owe me dollar or donuts? I like donuts. Nope, urnotrite. I think you missed my point brought about by your fanciful take off into the flowers and the birds.



[quote]I'm with you there, as regards our culture's misplaced values. In my world, the mystics and the poets would take pride of place above the businessmen and bankers. Just look at the avant garde French, German, and American cinema from the first half of the 20th century; I'm thinking, specifically, Metropolis, by that German guy whose name I can't remeber at the moment.Also look at the Phenomenologists such as Heidegger -- who views alienation from our true ontological selves, apart from our "roles" in and usefulness to society, as perhaps the greatest evil. [/quote[

I'm totally with you here! Ontological obscuration is as far as I'm concerned the great mental illness that goes completely unrecognized.



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The rat race is stupid, and "productivity" in and of itself (or worse yet, in service of the accumulation of unneccessary capital) is useless. I'm with you, girlfriend. But I also happen to like being a lawyer, and my bosses happen to like my putting in 1,500 billable hours a year, and my wife happens to like not working full time, and my children happen to like eating.
My children ate fine and still do because there's always putting money in the account when necessary. However, adhd can be very debilitating particularly when it comes with co-morbid disorrders. I'm not going to pass judgement on those for whom such tragedy is very possible. I can beat my chest and say if I did it why can't you. But one thing i've learned is that what may seem like a slight obstacle to one is a mountain to another. I'll err on the side of kindness.



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Ya ya, axons, dendtites, synapes, neurochemistry, I know, I know. But it has been proven that re-habituation can actually change your brain, it can effect physical changes to the brain itself. The mind - body arrow is not unidirectional. Maybe I'll never "learn" to hang my suits up consistently -- but does it hurt to try? Isn't there a danger of giving in to a fatalistic hell? Doesn't that in and of itself lead to depresseion, which leads to the spiral, etc.?
So far there have been no proven neuro-plastic techniques. Why dive off the deep end with such extremes as "fatalistic hell"? What's next? Hitler?

You know how to hang up your suits right? This is not an intellectual deficit, there's no input issue. ADHD is an OUTPUT issue. It's not a learning thing. You can compensate with various routines which given the nature of ADHD you must expect a reasonable rate of failure. It doesn't hurt to implement strategies and all people with adhd do implement some strategies. They may not have an adequate repertoire of strategies or have maladaptive strategies but make no mistake, all the strategies in the world do not cure ADHD.

How much do you expect from others? It's a fact that with hidden disabilities that over-expectation is the norm and that with visible disabilities under-expectation is the norm. There's no doubt that we've been taught to expect more of ourselves than any one can reasonably give. This is evidenced in the low self esteem and the misattribution that we've all experienced.



Quote:
Self-examination is never a waste of time. And "knowlege of ADHD" will never be complete. It is "damaging" to play the Pharisee and say: "Look at me (i.e., an NT), I can function this way in the world, you can too, and if you don't, burn in Hell, sinner!" That's not playing nice. But isn't it also just as bad to say -- "Don't worry about adhering to the tenets of your faith if you don't feel up to it."?

Where did I saw anything about not adhering to the tenets of the church? Regardless, even the church acknowledges that disability requires accomodation yet here is another person with ADHD going on all hard *** like so many of us do. Why is that? Denial maybe? I dunno. How is it that so many with ADHD are neurotically perfectionistic?



Quote:
We're not asking blind people to compete in a biatholon, we're only asking people (I am apparently "we" now, I dunno) to do what they're capable of.
The blind in this sense have it easier, all people have to do is close their eyes to get a glimpse of the exact range of deficit that these people experience. It's a no brainer! The problem is that this is not the case with ADHD. It's routinely minimized, moralized and derided. Understanding is a luxury most of us just won't get. Here's the problem, I can't know the range of my own disability never mind someone else with adhd. I feel perfectly normal! Why wouldn't I expect myself to function normally? This is why I feel commentary about how 'others' use add as an excuse is just a pile of self congratulatory garbage and it perpetuates a harmful stereotypes that places barriers in front of all of us.

I don't run about making excuses, do you really think people would listen or care? Would your boss? your co-workers? Friends? I'm angry, on behalf of all of us that we're held up to such hostile scrutiny and suspicion over whether we're doing it because we're lazy or because it's adhd. How many donuts do you want to bet that scrutinzing eye is jaundiced? And we believe it! That's the kicker, we're out there perpetuating this nonsense too!




Quote:
You're regressing the argument. No "act" is sinful per se. It must be (2) wilful and (3) with knowledge that the act is sinful.
No i'm not. What people with ADHD live with their whole lives is a state of sociological transgression and so when the word 'sin' comes up most aren't going to argue the greek versus jewish etymology or go into the finer points of theology, they're just going to be transported directly to shame and they won't be passing Go. In that sense having ADHD is very much an experience of feeling 'sinful'. (in the coloquial sense)


Quote:
We all have our crosses to bear; some sins are easier for us to resist than others, and which sins these are varies from person to person. It doesn't somehow remove us from Grace, or make us "deformed".
That's not my argument. The theological arguement is that sin deforms the interior image that we are all born in. Your argument that adhd causes us to be more sinful is to suggest that we were born with a greater burden even tho the church clearly teaches that disability to varying degrees does indeed abrogate responsibility in areas that the disability manifests itself.



Quote:
Even St. Paul had his "thorn" that he begged God to remove (he didn't). Maybe Paul was ADD? Who knows? Some are "born" lusting after pre-pubescent children. Doesn't make it right to have sex with children. Others are "born" with a bad temper, and the slightest insult can incite violent rage. Doesn't make it right to commit murder. I was "born" with ADD. Doesn't mean I can thumb my nose at God's commandments.
I'm rolling my eyes you drama queen! You're off the point and quite possibly the beam too! lol

Hitler!





Quote:
Sin is what removes us from God's presence. But we are not "born" "filled with sin". I am not suggesting so. But would you not agree that it is easier for an alcoholic to resist the first drink than the last? Sin can become a habit, and not just for ADD'ers, but for everyone. It takes some manner of spiritual discipline to get out of sinful habits.
In my case ADHD is genetic, it's all over the place in my extended family. How could I have resisted that first ADD moment? Do you see that your analogy fails? It's a brain difference, there's no cure, and you can't just wish it away or click your heels and wish you were nt!

ADD is not caused by bad habits tho it may result in what looks like poor habits but that would be misattribution. Go tell that blind person to have more discipline screw it braille is for weaklings.



Quote:
No. It gives people hope. With God, all things are possible. While I may never be able to strike a match on a wet bar of soap, there are things that I can do to improve myself as a human being and as a soul in the light of God. Trying to do good is always preferable than letting defeat tell you what you can and can't do.
It's not defeat, it's called reality. You can be completely unaware of the neurological findings, or what ADHD actually is, that's up to you. The reality is that ADD is not a lack of discipline. You consistently bring up moral etiologies that have been proven false.


With God all things are possible. With your theory of moral failure .. not so much.



No. An involuntary act is, by definition, not sinful.



Quote:
Because it doesn't "judge". Only you and God can judge you. Personal responsibility provides hope. I cannot ever say whether any particular act commited by anyone but me is ever "sinful". But I know that if I don't answer that voicemail today, I have some examination to do.
I haven't argued against personal responsibility I basically said prove it! Prove that we care less about personal responsibility than anyone else? Prove that people with ADD need more condescending lectures on responsibility and diligence than others do. (haven't you had a gullet full yet? I can recommend some volunteer lecturers)

I reject these inaccurate stereotypes because they are damaging. I'm not saying don't keep struggling, I wouldn't say that to anyone. I'm just not giving a green light to stereotyping those with adhd as irresponsible shiftless bums who lack consideration for others. Until it can be proven that people with adhd are less morally fit than others then I will continue to flip the bird at any and all attempts to categorize us in such a manner. It's harmful and wrong.







Quote:
See, this paragraph makes me think we might be speaking the same language, but just using different words. You admit that conscience is capable of discerning the "distinction", presumably between sin and non-sin, and that the "wisdom to know the difference", so to speak, is something that can be nurtured and improved. Striving for virtue and assumption of responsbility are all that can be asked of anyone.
What I'm saying is it really does take a lot of knowledge to understand ADHD, it's not intuitive to understand our symptoms. They are amazingly subtle yet can be devestating. It is encouraging to suggest to people to contemplate where they are in error and where they need to learn acceptance of themselves.

It is not encouraging to repeat what in all likelyhood is an ignorant slander perpetuated by a cynical and hostile majority who think everyone is gaming the system.





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  #11  
Old 06-03-10, 10:11 AM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

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Originally Posted by Impromptu_DTour View Post
Im a practicing Pentacostal Christian,
Welcome!

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and i consciously try really really hard every day to not resort to having to poke out my right eye that causes me to sin
Again, "welcome!" *sigh*

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And that's the important part. Conscious Thought. If i know.. than i know. I cant ignore that i know, and ride the coat tails of my neurological ailment to scoot me through a life believing i have no ethical or moral responsibility.
That is the danger. Ginniebeam would also point out that you can't "beat yourself up" over the things that are more difficult for your (us) than for NT's, but I still hold that what you just said there is good thinkin'.

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My heart and soul is not different because i have ADD. Neither is my ability to consciously choose. God knows this, and so do I. However I might be a bit slow on the uptake, that doesnt mean that i am not conscious of a mistake. Notwithstanding I am able to bring unconscious behaviors that i am conscious of, into consciousness - to change, consciously. If i know (whether it is a conscious, or unconscious mistake - I know), than i am responsible for what i do with that knowledge. And if i know enough to make a decision, than i already did.
I highlighted my favorite part of your quote above. If there's even a chance that a change can be made or that things can get better, why not summon up every ounce of resolve to try. If you fail, you fail, but at least you've tried. I agree with Ginniebeam that it does no good to wallow in your own failures -- no good comes of this.

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In all honesty, the fact that I have ADD, gives me one more reason to be humble in the eyes of my Lord, because it forces me to be actively closer to Him in my thoughts and actions. And for that I am joyful - though i'll be the first to admit i not always am
In Talmud, and in Chassidic literature (the Tanya, for example) in particular, it is said that the heaven rejoices more over a "Bar Teshuvah" (repentant sinner) than over a "Chassid" (saint) because the repentant sinner is constantly focused on improving himself, on God, and constantly battling his Yetzer Hara (evil inclination), whereas the saint just goes about his day doing good, thinking good thoughts, as though it were as easy as falling off a log.

Quote:
ADD does not = Morally Deficient.

Neither does it give us the excuse to be our own Enablers.

Its a matter of Discipline. (my spine straightened too when i typed that - but seriously lets get over ourselves for a second. Just because we're ADD, doesnt give us the right to milk some kind of Moral Welfare)
Indeed. I would also note that (last time I checked) the ADA doesn't recognize ADD as a "disability", so at least for now, we have to hold ourselves to the same standard everybody else does, at least in the workplace -- no "reasonable accomodation forthcoming".

Quote:
Christ's parable with the 3 servants (Mathew 25:14-28) is a perfect example for this whole ADD/God conundrum. For anyone that is not familiar with the parable, in summary:

A Master gave 3 servants a quantity of money. 2 servants worked hard to invest the money that their master gave them, and both made returns based on their efforts. The 3rd did nothing with the share he was responsible for, and instead buried it so that he would have at least not lost any money.

What we can learn from this parable in the topic of the OPs post (in the context of ADD, Moral mistakes, and God), is that God sees our effort, far above and beyond our shortcomings. In this parable we can substitute the Money that was given to the servants (us) as .. well anything. But for us lets substitute Effort. And when i substitute Effort, i dont mean to say that we dont Try, but not always are we Trying to Correct. And it is our perseverance to continue to Try to Correct that is recognized - not our failures in doing so. However when reflecting on the parable of the 3 servants, the servant that did nothing with the money he was given (he didnt try, didnt try to correct) was cast out of the Master's household.
I love parables. Another one might be the parable of the day-laborers. The ones who put in a full day's work get paid the same as those who show up just for the evening shift. Unfair? Perhaps, but sometimes you find yourself working harder just to get the same as everybody else.

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I think its important to note, (and remember), that we as Christians (or not Christians), have a responsibility to hold ourselves accountable for our thoughts and actions - and this has little to specifically do with being ADD.. that responsibility does not change. And we also have a responsibility to ourselves (and to God if it applies for you), to continue to try and remold the caste that we function from. And this takes time, and though its easy to get frustrated when we dont see the results, or continue to see the amount of unsuccessful attempts, we need to continue the struggle.

I_DTour
Like you, I firmly believe that things can change. One day, by the Grace of God, I will have hung up my suits each night for one consecutive week. I will go to work and spend less time goofing off. And it may sound trite, but it can't hurt to try.
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Old 06-03-10, 11:44 AM
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

We've been talking a lot about Paul and sin. Here's something from Paul about sin that I found particularly poignant -- Romans, Chapter 7:

8
But sin, finding an opportunity in the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetousness. Apart from the law sin is dead.
9
I once lived outside the law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive;
10
then I died, and the commandment that was for life turned out to be death for me.
11
For sin, seizing an opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and through it put me to death.
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So then the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
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4 Did the good, then, become death for me? Of course not! Sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin, worked death in me through the good, so that sin might become sinful beyond measure through the commandment.
14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin.
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What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate.
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Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good.
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So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
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For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not.
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For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want.
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Now if (I) do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21
So, then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand.
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For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self,
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but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 5
24
Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body?
25
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.

Here's some interesting bits from the Catechism I found:

VI. "And Lead Us not into Temptation"

So, how do you know the difference? -- the Holy Spirit

Also:

I. The Judgment of Conscience

Introspection leads to genuine formation of conscience.

But see:

I. Freedom and Responsibility

This is what you're getting at: "1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors."

Quote:
In my case ADHD is genetic, it's all over the place in my extended family. How could I have resisted that first ADD moment? Do you see that your analogy fails? It's a brain difference, there's no cure, and you can't just wish it away or click your heels and wish you were nt!
Well, in that case, I might as well just sit here and surf the 'net for porn all day, then, for I-could-not-have-done-otherwise. Yeah, it's a "brain difference", but a disciplined approach to changing maladaptive habits and patterns of thought is not clicking one's heels, neither is it needless imputation of shame. Some "bad" things I do are because of sin, others are because of ADD, and others are because of inadvertance. Through prayer and the Holy Spirit, and using the powers of reflection, meditation, and introspection that God gave me, I can do penance for my sin, I can improve my habits, and I can bring my mind closer to God's and further from thoughts of despair.

How do I "know" that a particular act is sinful, when my "brain" prevents me from discerning the difference? Maybe I don't always know. But I confess it anyway, and my soul is made as white as snow. I don't have to carry the baggage of guilt with me. Maybe a lot of objectively "sinful" acts are part-ADD, part wilful turning away from God.

Quote:
ADD is not caused by bad habits tho it may result in what looks like poor habits but that would be misattribution. Go tell that blind person to have more discipline screw it braille is for weaklings.
Habits can be modified. I can make new habits. Here's the difference. I didn't make a phone call I should have this morning. ADD? Sure, more than likely. But if somebody came into my office and said: "I'll give you a million dollars if you make that call", I'd be one the phone before he could write the check. Offer the blind man all the "incentive" you want, he ain't gonna read.

The difference is incentive, motivation. God and I have to work together to re-incentivize adaptive behaviors, and re-motivate myself. I put photos of my family on my desk to remind me what I'm working for. Sometimes I stare deeply into the icon of the Theotokos on my bookshelf and beg for "motherly" intercession. Sometimes I finish up my rosary as I'm getting in the elevator to my office. Sometimes I feel the abrasion of the scapular against my skin when I'm goofing off at work.

Sometimes that's just enough to get me back on the right path, at least for awhile. With God's help, I'll be spending more and more time on the path, and less and less time off it. Will my "brain" change? Maybe. Maybe some connections will die off and others will reform, maybe concentrations of grey matter and white matter will change, but that's not the point. Will my actions change? Yes.

Quote:
I reject these inaccurate stereotypes because they are damaging. I'm not saying don't keep struggling, I wouldn't say that to anyone. I'm just not giving a green light to stereotyping those with adhd as irresponsible shiftless bums who lack consideration for others. Until it can be proven that people with adhd are less morally fit than others then I will continue to flip the bird at any and all attempts to categorize us in such a manner. It's harmful and wrong.
That sounds like something Hitler would say (kidding! kidding!).

Seriously, I applaud your crusade of advocacy on behalf of us, the sorely afflicted. We need you folks far more than we need "lecturing." But you're looking at this as though from the outside looking into the mind of the ADD'er. I'm not concerned with what society thinks or what stereotypes are out there at this moment. I'm on the inside looking out, and on the inside looking deeper in.

Quote:
It is encouraging to suggest to people to contemplate where they are in error and where they need to learn acceptance of themselves.
Yes!

Quote:
It is not encouraging to repeat what in all likelyhood is an ignorant slander perpetuated by a cynical and hostile majority who think everyone is gaming the system.
If you mean "ADD'ers are lazy", I'm not saying that. But maybe some are. Are you saying that we're better than NT's, or are you denying that anybody could ever possibly commit the sin of sloth? If NT's can be lazy, so can we.

Quote:
Ceterum Censeo: Carthago Delenda Est
Yes, I imagine we're both beginning to sound like broken records at this point. No harm in fleshing out some ideas, tho, right?

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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

[quote=Nyarlathotep;890135]Welcome!








Quote:
Indeed. I would also note that (last time I checked) the ADA doesn't recognize ADD as a "disability", so at least for now, we have to hold ourselves to the same standard everybody else does, at least in the workplace -- no "reasonable accomodation forthcoming".
You must have checked prior to 1990 because there is no dipute that ADHD qualifies under the ADA. Because we are covered under the ADA we can and many do ask for reasonable accomodations in schoools and in the work place. You may be mistaking it for a learning disability it has not YET been identified as a specific learning disability but it will be eventually.
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

Here's my Nazarene (because I like how they teach) or spiritual take on this.

We're ALL sinners - period. It is my spiritual sense that the sin of blasphemy is no less displeasing to the Divine than murder...and vice versa. The wages of sin is death.

You don't confess your disorder. You confess what you recognize as having done wrong. There comes a time when you look back and realize that you really screwed up - and that what you did or blurted must be..would be an offense to the Divine - that's when you confess and ask for help in overcoming that particular issue.

Can ADDers be lazy? Sure as God made little green apples they can. The sin is in allowing yourself to purposely be lazy and blaming it on your ADD. Insert whichever ADD characteristic in there, if you like. It all pretty much fits.

Hmmm....my bottom line to all of this would be that you know your heart - and God knows your heart. And regardless of what anyone says, only YOU know the truth of your relationship with the Divine - and your level of honesty with Him.

In my paradigm - there are only two people who can forgive you: a person you might have offended - and God Himself.
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Re: Roll Call, Catholics and Other christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep View Post
We've been talking a lot about Paul and sin. Here's something from Paul about sin that I found particularly poignant -- Romans, Chapter 7:

Can you explain to me what reference these textual quotes have to do with the questions at hand?

Do these quotes back up your argument that ADHD puts us in more near occaision of sin? Do these quotes back up your moral etiologies of ADHD?

Let me get you on the fast track here. They don't. One thing I don't do much anymore is quotations volleyball, yes it's fun as can be and there's nothing like pounding one over the net watching your opponent throw themselves helplessly to the ground to try and recover from a death blow, it's just almost too much fun it feels.. well... y'know.. sinful. I won't follow you down all your rabbit trails, as exceptional as they are. BTW did you know rabbit trails are very adhd? No? It's ok, you're forgiven.


Quote:
Here's some interesting bits from the Catechism I found:

VI. "And Lead Us not into Temptation"

So, how do you know the difference? -- the Holy Spirit
There is no more or less temptation and no more or less access to the HS amongst the ADD population than the NT population.

Ok, so basically you've hit upon the crux of our argument. You said that there is 'more' temptation as adhd brings us nearer the occaision for sin than NT's. ADHD is not a spiritual ailment and has no bearing on matters of the HS influence.




Quote:
Also:

I. The Judgment of Conscience

Introspection leads to genuine formation of conscience.

I'll ammend something I wrote earlier because it was me getting all carried away and using all or nothing. There is the possibility of making the distinction between sin and dysfunction. I will say tho that this requires a fair amount of time and impartialty.


My contention has been that you lack the information to be impartial. Your moral diagnosis is a lack of sound understanding of neurology and to some extent theology. (please, don't mistake me here, I am not wanting to insult you, you do have an extensive knowledge. I've no doubt of this but I do take your perspectival stance and add it to the equation and from this I have deducted some immaturity.)





But see:

Quote:

This is what you're getting at: "1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors."


Quote:
Well, in that case, I might as well just sit here and surf the 'net for porn all day, then, for I-could-not-have-done-otherwise. Yeah, it's a "brain difference", but a disciplined approach to changing maladaptive habits and patterns of thought is not clicking one's heels, neither is it needless imputation of shame. Some "bad" things I do are because of sin, others are because of ADD, and others are because of inadvertance. Through prayer and the Holy Spirit, and using the powers of reflection, meditation, and introspection that God gave me, I can do penance for my sin, I can improve my habits, and I can bring my mind closer to God's and further from thoughts of despair.
Now I'm just going to have to go all Mr. T on you and say oh "quit yo jibber jabber!"


Please inform me when you find a group of people who because of a genetic influence are exonerated to such an extent that they 'might as well surf the net for porn all day'?

What you seem to be unclear on is that developing adaptive habits is necessary to amerliorate the effects of ADHD. (in large part, but not all, because of the NT social construction) ADHD is not a diagnosis of bad habits (fact) it is a neurological one. (fact) In order to work with what we have it necessitates the development of various coping strategies.

Let me define some of the things I'm saying so as there will be no misunderstanding.

ADHD is often genetic (I believe at least half is considered to be caused by genetic transmission I'll look that up later as I don't have the time at the moment)

Coping is defined as how an individual physically and psychologically deals with stress.

Having ADHD is stressful such that the stress alone is almost a co-morbid and at times can be. PTSD is actually very common.

Coping strategies are very constructive and useful for short term stress but not nearly as effective long term because eventually and in most instances of environmental stress, the situation eventually changes and the stress is alleviated such that the coping strategy has fulfilled it's function and ceases.

For those of us with neurological issues these coping strategies get stretched into life long necessities. Can coping be maintained consistently long term? The answer is no. Why? Because physiologically humans are not designed to withstand extended levels of stress, and will shut down, much to the annoyance of our thinking, that thinks it shouldn't and then this 'thinking' labels this as 'failure' or 'laziness' or any other such nonsense.

So, when you arrive in the door and see that blinking light on the answering machine and you walk right past it and go to your happy place (the internet, and I'll resist the temptation to playfully use some of that famous catholic guilt by saying 'hopefully not to surf porn'. Oh, oops! I did it.. oh that slippery mind got the better of me again!) is it the intelligence of your physiology that is overriding your mental intellect and meeting its needs despite your 'knowing better'? Is it low working memory that dropped the ball? Is it because sequential reasoning is impacted?

Well, that's a lot to contemplate isn't it?

My argument has not been that we do not need to develop coping strategies, in fact we do. My argument has been that you cannot make a dog into a horse. IE you can't make a coping mechanism more effective than your physiology can withstand. When you have a neurological difference such that it impairs your functioning in the world you will develop coping strategies. What you can't do, is have any reasonable expectation of demanding that they always work. They won't because they can't. When they do fail, beating yourself up, as so many of us do, is just creating MORE stress which creates a cycle that leads to co-morbid anxiety, depression, ocd and many many other ailments which unfortunately impair functioning even further.

Acceptance of limitation is vital to our mental health. It is not an excuse but rather a reality that if not dealt with will lead to further ill health. This has been my argument all along tho I failed to make this clear.

That you put brain difference in quotations causes me to wonder if you are really aware of how significant it is or can be. Severity does vary and that also needs to be taken into account.



Quote:
How do I "know" that a particular act is sinful, when my "brain" prevents me from discerning the difference? Maybe I don't always know. But I confess it anyway, and my soul is made as white as snow. I don't have to carry the baggage of guilt with me. Maybe a lot of objectively "sinful" acts are part-ADD, part wilful turning away from God.


Habits can be modified. I can make new habits. Here's the difference. I didn't make a phone call I should have this morning. ADD? Sure, more than likely. But if somebody came into my office and said: "I'll give you a million dollars if you make that call", I'd be one the phone before he could write the check. Offer the blind man all the "incentive" you want, he ain't gonna read.
Ok, no argument here but using the confessional as a coping strategy for stress is not everyone's cup of tea. I also question whether the added baggage of guilt stunts spiritual growth.

Look they can't be part and part, that's just plain lack of logic. If a command fails to be executed because the area of the brain doesn't function right then it's physiological and has nothing to do with intent or sin. Unless somehow we've got the ability to resurrect these dead commands with 'arise Lazarus' technique.. which I made an analogy with the blind person being told to get more discipline so they can see, (braille is for sissies) Are the areas of impairment for blindness part disability and part sin?



Quote:
The difference is incentive, motivation. God and I have to work together to re-incentivize adaptive behaviors, and re-motivate myself. I put photos of my family on my desk to remind me what I'm working for. Sometimes I stare deeply into the icon of the Theotokos on my bookshelf and beg for "motherly" intercession. Sometimes I finish up my rosary as I'm getting in the elevator to my office. Sometimes I feel the abrasion of the scapular against my skin when I'm goofing off at work.

Sometimes that's just enough to get me back on the right path, at least for awhile. With God's help, I'll be spending more and more time on the path, and less and less time off it. Will my "brain" change? Maybe. Maybe some connections will die off and others will reform, maybe concentrations of grey matter and white matter will change, but that's not the point. Will my actions change? Yes.
Reminding factors for spiritual work are great and I won't dispute that, however, you consistently fail to make any distinction between physiological impairment and sin. Have you read "Dark Night of the Soul" by St John of the Cross? Let me just go find my copy and give you a small quote.

Quote:
Chapter 5 paragraph three;

"There are others who are vexed with themselves when they observe their own imperfectness, and display an impatience that is not humility; so impatient are they about this that they would fain be saints in a day. Many of these persons purpose to accomplish a great deal andmake grand resolutions; yet, as they are not humble and have no misgivings about themselves, the more resolutions they make, the greater is their fall and the greater their annoyance."
Despite the archaic language which can throw some off, I'm saying exactly what he is, using a more modern formulation.

It is necessary to be humble and aware that we do not know it all. Expressing humility which leads to compassion not just for ourselves but for others gives space for there to be growth. Vexation is kinda like a micromanging boss, it's abusive of ourselves and others. Vexation leads to bullying of ourselves and others with detailed prescriptions to the point of minutae that is an unbearable prison for which the only remedy is escape.


Is it possible to love ourselves? Love is not a harsh overlord with a whip. ADHD is a disability. ADHD has no cure. Coping strategies and mechanisms ameliorate and if overdone can cause substantial harm. Before you make moral diagnosis of yourself and/or others you need to heal that physician first. It is the observer that is mucking up the observation with a perspectical deviation. (happens in science too)





Quote:
Seriously, I applaud your crusade of advocacy on behalf of us, the sorely afflicted. We need you folks far more than we need "lecturing." But you're looking at this as though from the outside looking into the mind of the ADD'er. I'm not concerned with what society thinks or what stereotypes are out there at this moment. I'm on the inside looking out, and on the inside looking deeper in.

Believe it or not, my 'crusade' if you will is not for the outside it really is for us. The NT culture doesn't understand and right now I don't expect them to. I see information as a tool that is a great need within the population of people with adhd. We don't suffer from not being harsh enough on ourselves, you're a classic example in fact, we lack the knowledge that would allow for mercy.

We are an abused population, and the truly tragic thing is we've been taught to abuse ourselves with accusations of moral deficiency.



Quote:
If you mean "ADD'ers are lazy", I'm not saying that. But maybe some are. Are you saying that we're better than NT's, or are you denying that anybody could ever possibly commit the sin of sloth? If NT's can be lazy, so can we.
right, and the arguement has been are we more or less culpable? You have suggested that we are more lazy and at no point have I suggested that adhd have no capability for being lazy.

BTW, sloth doesn't really mean laziness in the contemporary sense.. look up acedia.




Quote:
Yes, I imagine we're both beginning to sound like broken records at this point. No harm in fleshing out some ideas, tho, right?
oh dear, no I was just being funny! haha, oh well.. ooops





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