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Old 01-29-18, 10:41 AM
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Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

So my 15 year old is obsessed with a girl who lives an hour away. They are getting married and going to the same college and all that stuff. I've been saying for months that he is too focused on her. He isn't going out with friends, or anywhere. He comes home and facetimes with her for 2-6 hours per night. Every weekend he wants to see her. I've been having a problem with this for awhile.

This weekend I had to take him to the ER for the first time ever because he was twitching crazy and wasn't breaking right. The Dr. said it was a panic attack because the girl said "Maybe we need to take a break." He told the Dr. it wasn't the girl that was the problem it was the "People in the hallway when he's trying to sleep." There are no people. So the Dr. diagnosed him with some kind of amphetamine mental issue due to the ADHD drugs and said to stop taking them.

I have an appointment with the Psychiatrist tonight but supposedly he had these twitchy nights 3 nights in a row and didn't mention the people in the hallway to anyone until the ER dr. Is this really a thing? If it is a thing how likely is it he would have kept it to himself? Or is it more likely he's trying to steer the subject away from the girl?
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Old 01-29-18, 11:52 AM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

Yes, amphetamine or stimulant-related psychosis is a thing.

(It's uncommon when people take medication at prescribed doses, but it does sometimes happen. Does your son have any family history of bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or other psychosis? That can increase the risk.)

People often keep things like hallucinations or delusions to themselves, sometimes in part because the experience is unsettling and disorienting, and sometimes in part because they recognize that divulging what they're seeing/hearing will cause them to be viewed/treated as "crazy" by other people.

High stress and lack of sleep can contribute to medication side effects, and in some vulnerable individuals can precipitate the onset or worsening of psychosis symptoms.

I can't comment specifically on your son's case; I don't know whether it's actually drug-induced psychosis, or anxiety, or teenaged shenanigans, or.... Maybe there is some element of wanting you off his back re: the girl. But even if you think there's a chance he's playing you, I'd take what he reported to the ER doc extremely seriously. Hopefully the psychiatrist will have some good thoughts on helping your son manage whatever combination of things he's experiencing now, and it will turn out to be nothing too serious.

Best wishes to you and your son.

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Old 01-29-18, 11:55 AM
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Thumbs up Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

Wow. loaded post.
Ok...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
So my 15 year old is obsessed with a girl who lives an hour away. They are getting married and going to the same college and all that stuff. I've been saying for months that he is too focused on her. He isn't going out with friends, or anywhere. He comes home and facetimes with her for 2-6 hours per night. Every weekend he wants to see her. I've been having a problem with this for awhile.
My daughter does the same sh*t everytime she has a BF. Shuts out friends and activities and then wonders why she's bored when she breaks up or the BF is busy. Way to focused. Is this his first official GF? Thats a big issue that I noticed with Becca. Her first BF she was up his butt all the time and every thought,deed and action was about him.

Quote:
This weekend I had to take him to the ER for the first time ever because he was twitching crazy and wasn't breaking right.
Do you mean physically twitching? And what do you mean when you said breaking right?

Quote:
The Dr. said it was a panic attack because the girl said "Maybe we need to take a break." He told the Dr. it wasn't the girl that was the problem it was the "People in the hallway when he's trying to sleep." There are no people. So the Dr. diagnosed him with some kind of amphetamine mental issue due to the ADHD drugs and said to stop taking them.
Ok two fold opinion here. Of course its 75% girl. He is so wrapped up and almost *codependent*? with her, that any sort of change in dynamics can cause these things. Now, onto the people in the hall.
My son, when he was in about 6 or 7th grade had a couple of episodes where he swore he heard and saw something that wasnt there. Of course being treated for adhd and other stuff since age 4 we ran to the psych doctor and she said maybe he should try an antipsychotic med and we trialed him in a mental health day program..(big, huge mistake since he was surrounded by behavior issue kids and not mental health wellness). We pulled him from that after two weeks. The antipsychotic made him sleepy at night and as it turned out the doctor thought he had a hypnagogic episode..

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Quote:
Definition:
Hypnagogia is the experience of the transitional state between wakefulness and sleep in humans: the hypnagogic state of consciousness, during the onset of sleep. Mental phenomena that occur during this "threshold consciousness" phase include lucid thought, lucid dreaming, hallucinations, and sleep paralysis.
Quote:
Sometimes the word hypnagogia is used in a restricted sense to refer to the onset of sleep, and contrasted with hypnopompia, Frederic Myers's term for waking up.[1] However, hypnagogia is also regularly employed in a more general sense that covers both falling asleep and waking up, and Havelock Ellis questioned the need for separate terms.[2] Indeed, it is not always possible in practice to assign a particular episode of any given phenomenon to one or the other, given that the same kinds of experience occur in both, and that people may drift in and out of sleep. In this article hypnagogia will be used in the broader sense, unless otherwise stated or implied.
Quote:
Other terms for hypnagogia, in one or both senses, that have been proposed include "presomnal" or "anthypnic sensations", "visions of half-sleep", "oneirogogic images" and "phantasmata",[2] "the borderland of sleep", "praedormitium",[3] "borderland state", "half-dream state", "pre-dream condition",[4] "sleep onset dreams",[5] "dreamlets",[6] and "wakefulness-sleep transition"

Quote:
Threshold consciousness (commonly called "half-asleep" or "half-awake", or "mind awake body asleep") describes the same mental state of someone who is moving towards sleep or wakefulness, but has not yet completed the transition. Such transitions are usually brief, but can be extended by sleep disturbance or deliberate induction, for example during meditation.
Quote:
Signs and symptoms[edit]
Transition to and from sleep may be attended by a wide variety of sensory experiences. These can occur in any modality, individually or combined, and range from the vague and barely perceptible to vivid hallucinations.[8]
Quote:
Sights
Among the more commonly reported,[9][10] and more thoroughly researched, sensory features of hypnagogia are phosphenes which can manifest as seemingly random speckles, lines or geometrical patterns, including form constants, or as figurative (representational) images. They may be monochromatic or richly colored, still or moving, flat or three-dimensional (offering an impression of perspective). Imagery representing movement through tunnels of light is also reported. Individual images are typically fleeting and given to very rapid changes. They are said to differ from dreams proper in that hypnagogic imagery is usually static and lacking in narrative content,[11] although others understand the state rather as a gradual transition from hypnagogia to fragmentary dreams,[12] i.e., from simple Eigenlicht to whole imagined scenes. Descriptions of exceptionally vivid and elaborate hypnagogic visuals can be found in the work of Marie-Jean-Léon, Marquis d'Hervey de Saint Denys.
Quote:
Sounds
Hypnagogic hallucinations are often auditory or have an auditory component. Like the visuals, hypnagogic sounds vary in intensity from faint impressions to loud noises, like knocking and crash and bangs (exploding head syndrome). People may imagine their own name called, crumpling bags, white noise, or a doorbell ringing. Snatches of imagined speech are common. While typically nonsensical and fragmented, these speech events can occasionally strike the individual as apt comments on—or summations of—their thoughts at the time. They often contain word play, neologisms and made-up names. Hypnagogic speech may manifest as the subject's own "inner voice", or as the voices of others: familiar people or strangers. More rarely, poetry or music is heard.[1
Other sensations[edit]
Gustatory, olfactory and thermal sensations in hypnagogia have all been reported, as well as tactile sensations (including those kinds classed as paresthesia or formication). Sometimes there is synesthesia; many people report seeing a flash of light or some other visual image in response to a real sound. Proprioceptive effects may be noticed, with numbness and changes in perceived body size and proportions,[14] feelings of floating or bobbing, and out-of-body experiences.[21] Perhaps the most common experience of this kind is the falling sensation, and associated hypnic jerk, encountered by many people, at least occasionally, while drifting off to sleep.[22]
Quote:
Cognitive and affective phenomena[edit]
Thought processes on the edge of sleep tend to differ radically from those of ordinary wakefulness. For example, something that you agreed with in a state of Hypnagogia may seem completely ridiculous to you in an awake state. Hypnagogia may involve a "loosening of ego boundaries ... openness, sensitivity, internalization-subjectification of the physical and mental environment (empathy) and diffuse-absorbed attention."[23] Hypnagogic cognition, in comparison with that of normal, alert wakefulness, is characterized by heightened suggestibility,[24] illogic and a fluid association of ideas. Subjects are more receptive in the hypnagogic state to suggestion from an experimenter than at other times, and readily incorporate external stimuli into hypnagogic trains of thought and subsequent dreams. This receptivity has a physiological parallel; EEG readings show elevated responsiveness to sound around the onset of sleep
OK... thats the basics. After those brief episodes with my son (maybe three) we ceased the antipsychotic because it a wasnt a mental health issue and had nothing to do with his dexedrine. And they never happened again. He has always been too anxious and reacts poorly to stress-at least when he was little.
I think this is possible for your son. ER docs are all about slapping on a diagnosis and treating the acute issure and kicking you out. Very few have adequate mental health training. IMO he has no business telling you to stop a med. I would talk to his psyche and read up some more. I think it was the stress of the GF and who knows what else, anxiety about it, manifesting in a weird, uncommon, but not out of the realm of possibility way.
JMO and I am not a doctor. Just a mom. The doc in the ER was basically suggesting he was suffering from a form of amphetamine psychosis-
Quote:
{Stimulant psychosis is a psychosis symptom which involves hallucinations, paranoia, and/or delusions and typically occurs following an overdose on psychostimulants; however, it has also been reported to occur in approximately 0.1% of individuals, or 1 out of every 1,000 people, within the first several weeks after starting amphetamine or methylphenidate therapy.}
Quote:
The most common causative agents are substituted amphetamines, including substituted cathinones, as well as certain dopamine reuptake inhibitors such as cocaine or methylphenidate.
Quote:
I have an appointment with the Psychiatrist tonight but supposedly he had these twitchy nights 3 nights in a row and didn't mention the people in the hallway to anyone until the ER dr. Is this really a thing? If it is a thing how likely is it he would have kept it to himself? Or is it more likely he's trying to steer the subject away from the girl?
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Old 01-29-18, 12:06 PM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

It sounds like a redirection, but who knows.

In any case, the fact this began at the same time as the message from the gal is telling.


Cheers,
Ian
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Old 01-29-18, 02:39 PM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

He's had gf's before but this is the first ultra serious one.

Breaking right was suppose to say breathing right, darn spell check flew away with me on that one. Yes he was shaking like someone does who is super cold, and his breathing was like he'd run a marathon. When I pulled up to the ER they couldn't get him to focus. He said about 9 people asked him what drugs he had taken, they were assuming overdose because he was barely responsive and claimed he couldn't talk. They also strapped him down and he said the Dr. pushed super hard on his chest, there is a bruise. I wasn't there but I assume if the Dr is trying to look into your eyes and asses your body and you are flailing around they would have to restrain you. He didn't seem all there, like he was super drunk and his eyes weren't focusing. However, this was at 6pm, he wasn't trying to sleep, so no idea about these people in the hallway thing.

I give him the meds, there were none missing. Blood and urine analysis didn't find anything else in his system. He's been in the same dosage since August, and we were near the end of the bottle so it wasn't a weird generic giving him the problem.

I don't know how to address this with the Psychiatrist tonight. She isn't really a talker, she's just a med prescriber. I also don't know how to say, without it backfiring on me horribly, that I have serious doubt about their being people in the hallway, and tell her I think this was about a girl. I can't seem to get his father to agree with me about the girl being a real issue. His take is that they are 15 and "in love" and this is how it goes....but I don't think this is how it goes for most people.
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Old 01-30-18, 11:11 PM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

How's he doing?

What'd the doc think?
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Old 01-31-18, 08:08 AM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

Dr. said everything he said was possible, and that the Adderal XR could have been making his girl obsession worse. She prescribed a new med that starts with an M and has two letters behind it but our pharmacy said it would be 10 days before it was in so I'm trying to find another pharmacy to fill it.

In the mean time my son took off Monday from school, the ER dr said he could and gave him a note for school. Yesterday he went to school but said he threw up so my mom went and got him I can only assume his system took a shock this weekend and he's needing extra sleep to balance himself out. He cooked 12 eggs last night for his dinner and ate them all, so hopefully he feels better today.
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Old 01-31-18, 08:40 AM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
Dr. said everything he said was possible, and that the Adderal XR could have been making his girl obsession worse. She prescribed a new med that starts with an M and has two letters behind it but our pharmacy said it would be 10 days before it was in so I'm trying to find another pharmacy to fill it.

In the mean time my son took off Monday from school, the ER dr said he could and gave him a note for school. Yesterday he went to school but said he threw up so my mom went and got him I can only assume his system took a shock this weekend and he's needing extra sleep to balance himself out. He cooked 12 eggs last night for his dinner and ate them all, so hopefully he feels better today.
Hey I didnt mean to arm chair diagnose your son, I just wanted to share a similar story. Glad its getting better. I still do not think its ther adderall but your doctor is the one with the medical degree, not me.
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Old 01-31-18, 12:16 PM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

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Hey I didnt mean to arm chair diagnose your son, I just wanted to share a similar story. Glad its getting better. I still do not think its ther adderall but your doctor is the one with the medical degree, not me.
You're good Sarah...I don't think it's the Adderal either. I think if this had happened in the first month, or perhaps with a new Rx bottle then it would have been the adderal, that's not where we are.

The thing that bugs the crud out of me is the "people in the hallway". If I were explaining there were people in the hallway my face would be red, I would start by saying "I know this sounds crazy BUT..." he did none of that. He sat there and calmly explained that the people, well really just one person, use to just come once a month but now they have been coming every night. It just felt WAAAAY off, but I didn't want to cross examine him, and apparetely neither did the Dr.

Just got a text from the girls mom that said "He told *girls name* that it was his meds making him controlling her and arguing with her about hanging out with other guys, but the dr. changed them so he wouldn't be like that again."......I just had no words.
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Old 01-31-18, 12:37 PM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

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Just got a text from the girls mom that said "He told *girls name* that it was his meds making him controlling her and arguing with her about hanging out with other guys, but the dr. changed them so he wouldn't be like that again."......I just had no words.
WOW. So he told her the meds would mean he wouldnt be like that again and either she told his mom or he told her mom AND the mom texted you this??
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Old 01-31-18, 12:43 PM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

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WOW. So he told her the meds would mean he wouldnt be like that again and either she told his mom or he told her mom AND the mom texted you this??
Yup, the girl tells her mom most things. The mom and I text to make sure we are both getting the same stories. She texted me to see how he was doing since Saturday. I told her, and she told me about the kids conversation.

The fight on Saturday was something about her wanting to go out to the skating rink with her friends and him telling her she wasn't "allowed", she said stop controlling me, he said no, she said Then I think we need to take a break"....and I took him to the emergency room....none of this surprises me.
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Old 01-31-18, 12:46 PM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

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The thing that bugs the crud out of me is the "people in the hallway". If I were explaining there were people in the hallway my face would be red, I would start by saying "I know this sounds crazy BUT..." he did none of that. He sat there and calmly explained that the people, well really just one person, use to just come once a month but now they have been coming every night. It just felt WAAAAY off, but I didn't want to cross examine him, and apparetely neither did the Dr.
Your sense your face would be red is because you have intact reality testing...you would know that what you saw was a hallucination, and not real.

Those without intact reality testing don’t have this reaction of embarrassment because they fully believe what they saw was real, as their ability to differentiate between reality and non-reality is absent, or at least severely impaired.


Cheers,
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Old 02-03-18, 05:20 PM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

Idk? Who knows unless you have the person run a trial without this "girlfriend" present. Everything is anecdotal in psychiatry unless you've done research. That's how it goes and you can try to correlate all you want but causation is never equal to correlation nor does speculating for hours on end what is causing this and to what % it is. It will never get you anywhere or do you any good. Study one variable at a time when you're looking at what meds do. Be weary of long-acting and short-acting components as well.

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Old 04-27-18, 02:13 AM
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Re: Is it REALLY the ADHD meds?

How's he doing now?
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