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Old 11-11-17, 01:25 PM
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Exclamation Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?


One would not normally pair these two, but they are being paired more and more in the scientific literature and debate

Simple schizophrenia, is schizophrenia, but the individual completely and totally lacks the positive symptoms.


Positive symptoms would include delusions, hallucinations etc. Delusions of reference, delusions of grandeur, tangential thinking, paranoia, and "speech salad"

Those diagnosed with simple schizophrenia only have the negative symptoms which include social withdrawal, social awkwardness, profound reclusiveness, blunted regulation of emotion, disabling social anxiety, etc....

If you read all the symptoms of both of these, you will find they are similar in many ways. That is untenable

But who wants to be diagnosed with simple schizophrenia? Asperger's syndrome seems I want less daunting (to most parents at least.)

Although the world health organization is keeping simple schizophrenia as a diagnosis, the DSM will be removing it as of this year
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Old 11-11-17, 04:00 PM
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Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderboy View Post
Although the world health organization is keeping simple schizophrenia as a diagnosis, the DSM will be removing it as of this year
DSM-5, which was published in 2013, requires at least one set of symptoms besides negative symptoms. Is that what you're referring to?


One question I have is whether these diagnoses are stable over time, and what the time course of these disorders looks like. Are there people who exclusively have negative symptoms of schizophrenia throughout their life span, without better meeting the criteria for autism spectrum disorder (or a depressive disorder)? Or is the presence of negative symptoms in someone without autism spectrum disorder likely a prodromal or intermediate state in someone who is likely to experience delusions and/or hallucinations at some point?
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Old 11-11-17, 05:04 PM
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Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

i've never known someone with only negative symptoms be able to live outside of long-term care. i ended up in residential care for a stretch after a particularly bad break and there were a couple of people there. one i'm still friends with, though less so since my dog died as he was largely in it for the dog.

one thing you didn't mention is alogia. that, coupled with avolition means people with only negative symptoms that are persistent and not part of an episode largely don't talk and aren't able to provide any self care. and when they do talk, you can tell there's definitely a poverty of speech. and the inability to self care is why you end up in residential care.

having negative symptoms can be part of schizophrenia generally though and doesn't always indicate extreme social anxiety. the anxiety tends to come more from the hallucinations and delusions. asociality isn't really social anxiety so much as not being invested in socialising. that's the last one to happen for me. you can also have negative symptoms and still function to some degree. it's definitely something that comes in mild-moderate-severe and can present with all or only a couple of the symptoms.

interestingly enough, if you do have only negative symptoms you're less likely, according to research, to follow through on suicidal ideation or even make an attempt. which makes sense really, because you become so detached from the world around you and interacting with it.

that's why i think your hypothesis that aspergers and simple schizophrenia are similar...hmmm... i think aspergers isn't in the DSM 5 anymore and it's just autism, but at the more functional end of the autism spectrum, i wouldn't say that's equivalent to those with simple schizophrenia or exclusively full on negative symptoms because that's a very non functional person in most senses. as i said above, i've only seen people that could be described as having simple schizophrenia live in residential care. or be in hospital.

i will agree with you on this part: nobody wants schizophrenia to be part of their diagnosis and if they do, they likely aren't.


N: to your question, there are people who are stable with only negative symptoms, but i couldn't tell you whether there are other diagnoses involved. people who only have severe negative symptoms aren't the most ...engaged in conversation group, of course, and apart from speaky parallelogram, i've not known one i'd consider having had an actual relationship long term with.
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Old 11-11-17, 05:25 PM
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Exclamation Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post
DSM-5, which was published in 2013, requires at least one set of symptoms besides negative symptoms. Is that what you're referring to?


One question I have is whether these diagnoses are stable over time, and what the time course of these disorders looks like. Are there people who exclusively have negative symptoms of schizophrenia throughout their life span, without better meeting the criteria for autism spectrum disorder (or a depressive disorder)? Or is the presence of negative symptoms in someone without autism spectrum disorder likely a prodromal or intermediate state in someone who is likely to experience delusions and/or hallucinations at some point?




What you are stating, i.e. the questions you are stating, remains the quagmire in the psychiatric community.

Disorders are profound ( invariably ) to pin down. They overlap, or they can I mean.


Psychiatry isn't at its best, yet, at operationally defining psychiatric disorders epidemiologically.

Bleuler, himself, I just wonder if he would've wanted this diagnosis to fade or to stay…

Another category of this would be simply schizophrenia, not otherwise specified, which will remain in the DSM


Here is a wikilink

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simp..._schizophrenia



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Bleuler
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Old 11-11-17, 06:24 PM
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Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

I've not seen anything of this recent debate in the scientific literature.
Could you share a link or two please?

Dr. Leo Kanner distinguished between the two disorders, Bleuler's "childhood
schizophrenia" and autism, way back in the 1940's.

Kanner noted that autism is present from birth and the clinical signs are not the
same as schizophrenia.
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Old 11-12-17, 12:52 AM
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Exclamation Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

First, I would like to state that in no way do I feel that these two disorders are the same.

I was resolving to afford attention the commonalities of some psychiatric disorders,
as I am keenly aware there are some, and obviously there are some that are clearly
Not this is perhaps psychiatry's most prominent weakness, among others of course.


As stated before, the paucity of -operationally defined- definitions for some disorders
in psychiatry are not perfect- to say the least, which -partly- why
Asperger's Syndrome was "-changed-" to Autistic Spectrum Disorder

Non Verbal Learning Disability

In the late 1990s Byron Rourke promoted,
with quite enthusiasm: nonverbal learning disorder.

If you Google it you'll find many comparisons
with what Rourke operationally defined NVLD and
Autistic Spectrum Disorder.

One common denominator that Rourke found, that
seems to be true in individuals with AS and NVLD Is a marked discrepancy between
the individual's performance WAIS IQ and verbal IQ,
with the latter being significantly higher

He found differences such as: verbal IQ 122,
performance IQ 89 he viewed this is a common
denominator of nonverbal learning disability, which, has no standing
at present with the DSM


If you were interested in this rubric of research,
simply Google Byron Rourke.

Assorted conditions, or differentials to what Rourke
envisioned one might argue is:

a slight variation of AS, Learning disability
of the Right hemisphere, again this is not DSM
but is interesting

______________
Reference: Rourke, Byron (1987) "Syndrome of nonverbal learning disability. Clinical Neuropsychologist. 209-14
______________
* many others



Dr. Fred Volkmar MD (at Yale), who is a friend of mine,
has discussed this with me and I find his commentary
any issue concerning development of psychiatric disorders
to be of the highest caliber.

I encourage anyone to investigate his kaleidoscope of work


With this post, I was simply attempting to inquire about a
topic for applied discussion (including debate and questions)


And l...I'm thrilled with the questions, which many of them,
I will be humble enough to (sincerely state), quite affirmatively,

___________
"I don't know"
___________

but...I'm always willing to investigate


Below is an interesting article to read


I just post in the hope that you find the topic interesting

That is my hope


Article:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2740744/

Last edited by wonderboy; 11-12-17 at 01:22 AM..
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Old 11-12-17, 01:37 AM
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Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

These issues are not necessarily new; Conversely, I wanted to post somewhat non-discussed issues and (concomitantly) to promulgate issues for active, professional, discussion
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Old 11-15-17, 09:08 PM
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Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

Aspergers is no longer an official diagnosis, its now just under the autism spectrum.

I am diagnosed austism spectrum disorder level 1. I haven't done a ton of research on simple schizophrenia but I did read that it has the earliest onset of the types of schizophrenias and sometimes can begin in childhood. ASD is a neuro-developmental condition that begins in very early childhood, and often there are early onset indicators. So, if the onset of symptoms was any later than early childhood, that would be a sign. Although, ASD can fall under the radar for some kids, esp girls.

ASD is thought to be primarily a sensory processing disorder now and sensory integration issues are a major part of it. There is also things like stimming, echolalia, obsessive special interests, etc that (from my very quick google search) don't appear to be strongly apparent in simple schizophrenia. So, those could be some indicators as well.

Interesting to thing about/read about. It would be really great if one day brain imaging could be more easily available and maybe used to aid in diagnosing things like this.
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Old 11-16-17, 01:13 AM
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Re: 50 conditions that mimic ADHD, PART I

Hazel, that is interesting.

But what do you make of the burgeoning confusion, though, between HFA and Schizoid PD in particular? I've found in my own research that positive subtypes of Schizophrenia (even including Schizotypal PD, which can be relatively mild) tend to have clear indicators that differentiate it from autism.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Schizoid PD. Apparently there is a great deal of overlap between the two, enough that (from what I've seen) some notable diagnosticians think there isn't a meaningful line to be drawn.

I'm kinda asking because some of the qualities I have may resemble, on the surface, negative traits. Among them I include extreme amotivation and a very low drive to socialize; on the other hand, I also experience social anxiety and avoidance, so it is hard to tell what's really going on. But there are other things including paranoid tendencies (assuming the worst of others so much, I can't let anyone know the real me), and also an absolute aversion to social reciprocity esp. if emotions are involved.

Anyway just thought I'd put that out there
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Old 11-16-17, 03:27 AM
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Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

just to be clear, i only posted to share my experiences with having bouts of negative symptoms. once lasting as long as fifteen months. to offer that perspective on what it's like.

my experience of them isn't the most severe i've known, but it's certainly not a more mild presentation. negative symptoms are often confused with depression, but there are marked differences. so i can appreciate where you're coming from in exploring some commonalities. most of those i've known with long term negative symptoms (i know that fifteen months sounds super long term, but for the 33% of my kind who have ZERO response to medication...that's a drop in a bucket of) the majority of their lives are lived in a group home. when you combine insidious onset with primarily negative symptoms, you remove a lot of the potential for "making the most out of" what is, any way you look at it, an utterly overwhelmingly **** situation.

as i said, i was simply showing you a personal picture of what negative symptoms can look like. and they vary from individual to individual. they are the hardest to treat and the least treatment responsive. they also reduce self care in a way that i spent months in residential treatment because i simply lacked the wherewithal or ...impetus...or even the concern about not having those things, to manage basic self care.

there is one medication shown effective against them and it's a ***** to take. it has considerable side effects. there's also sarcosine. which...sucks to eat a tablespoon of daily, but doesn't hurt/might help a little.

i didn't always have them. for at least ten years after receiving the diagnosis that is indicated by having them...i only had positive symptoms. and even then, most of my formal thinking was intact for about seven to ten years. it wasn't until i started getting REALLY sick and cracking REALLY hard and not being able to be stabilized for months, then years at a time, that i developed formal thought disorder traits. and it was after an especially bad break the first time and then seventeen rounds of a certain type of treatments that i've developed negative symptoms. i also am mired in them now because i went off clozaril. but i'm still living at home and i am typing, so alogia hasn't hit me yet...and i can still feel some things, so the anhedonia isn't so bad. the asociality and avolition and diminished self care and overall blunted affect is more my troubles this time around. it's been far worse. hopefully it's being nipped and it'll be able to be addressed outpatient this time.

point being: i wasn't trying to crap on your exploration sundae by pointing out all of the differences...merely sharing my experience if symptoms that aren't commonplace on here. and though it's the autism community's phrase, nothing about us without us, i think it's important to have whatever representation possible from those with the actual symptoms/ailments in question. and there aren't many of us left on here, so thought i'd suck up my dignity and reply.

that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderboy View Post
First, I would like to state that in no way do I feel that these two disorders are the same.

I was resolving to afford attention the commonalities of some psychiatric disorders,
as I am keenly aware there are some, and obviously there are some that are clearly
Not this is perhaps psychiatry's most prominent weakness, among others of course.


As stated before, the paucity of -operationally defined- definitions for some disorders
in psychiatry are not perfect- to say the least, which -partly- why
Asperger's Syndrome was "-changed-" to Autistic Spectrum Disorder

Non Verbal Learning Disability

In the late 1990s Byron Rourke promoted,
with quite enthusiasm: nonverbal learning disorder.

If you Google it you'll find many comparisons
with what Rourke operationally defined NVLD and
Autistic Spectrum Disorder.

One common denominator that Rourke found, that
seems to be true in individuals with AS and NVLD Is a marked discrepancy between
the individual's performance WAIS IQ and verbal IQ,
with the latter being significantly higher

He found differences such as: verbal IQ 122,
performance IQ 89 he viewed this is a common
denominator of nonverbal learning disability, which, has no standing
at present with the DSM


If you were interested in this rubric of research,
simply Google Byron Rourke.

Assorted conditions, or differentials to what Rourke
envisioned one might argue is:

a slight variation of AS, Learning disability
of the Right hemisphere, again this is not DSM
but is interesting

______________
Reference: Rourke, Byron (1987) "Syndrome of nonverbal learning disability. Clinical Neuropsychologist. 209-14
______________
* many others



Dr. Fred Volkmar MD (at Yale), who is a friend of mine,
has discussed this with me and I find his commentary
any issue concerning development of psychiatric disorders
to be of the highest caliber.

I encourage anyone to investigate his kaleidoscope of work


With this post, I was simply attempting to inquire about a
topic for applied discussion (including debate and questions)


And l...I'm thrilled with the questions, which many of them,
I will be humble enough to (sincerely state), quite affirmatively,

___________
"I don't know"
___________

but...I'm always willing to investigate


Below is an interesting article to read


I just post in the hope that you find the topic interesting

That is my hope


Article:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2740744/
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  #11  
Old 11-16-17, 10:33 PM
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Minocycline for Negative Sym Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
just to be clear, i only posted to share my experiences with having bouts of negative symptoms. once lasting as long as fifteen months. to offer that perspective on what it's like.

my experience of them isn't the most severe i've known, but it's certainly not a more mild presentation. negative symptoms are often confused with depression, but there are marked differences. so i can appreciate where you're coming from in exploring some commonalities. most of those i've known with long term negative symptoms (i know that fifteen months sounds super long term, but for the 33% of my kind who have ZERO response to medication...that's a drop in a bucket of) the majority of their lives are lived in a group home. when you combine insidious onset with primarily negative symptoms, you remove a lot of the potential for "making the most out of" what is, any way you look at it, an utterly overwhelmingly **** situation.

as i said, i was simply showing you a personal picture of what negative symptoms can look like. and they vary from individual to individual. they are the hardest to treat and the least treatment responsive. they also reduce self care in a way that i spent months in residential treatment because i simply lacked the wherewithal or ...impetus...or even the concern about not having those things, to manage basic self care.

there is one medication shown effective against them and it's a ***** to take. it has considerable side effects. there's also sarcosine. which...sucks to eat a tablespoon of daily, but doesn't hurt/might help a little.

i didn't always have them. for at least ten years after receiving the diagnosis that is indicated by having them...i only had positive symptoms. and even then, most of my formal thinking was intact for about seven to ten years. it wasn't until i started getting REALLY sick and cracking REALLY hard and not being able to be stabilized for months, then years at a time, that i developed formal thought disorder traits. and it was after an especially bad break the first time and then seventeen rounds of a certain type of treatments that i've developed negative symptoms. i also am mired in them now because i went off clozaril. but i'm still living at home and i am typing, so alogia hasn't hit me yet...and i can still feel some things, so the anhedonia isn't so bad. the asociality and avolition and diminished self care and overall blunted affect is more my troubles this time around. it's been far worse. hopefully it's being nipped and it'll be able to be addressed outpatient this time.

point being: i wasn't trying to crap on your exploration sundae by pointing out all of the differences...merely sharing my experience if symptoms that aren't commonplace on here. and though it's the autism community's phrase, nothing about us without us, i think it's important to have whatever representation possible from those with the actual symptoms/ailments in question. and there aren't many of us left on here, so thought i'd suck up my dignity and reply.

that's all.

________________________________________

You are absolutely correct. Negative symptoms are the most arduous to treat.


Here is some very unique research I found that shocked me,

I found the articles at google scholar


Apparently, there have been double-blind studies that have displayed marked efficacy using the antibiotic Minocycline
that demonstrated a significant reduction of negative symptoms.

VERY interesting rubric of research that I would highly suggest anyone to investigate
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Old 11-16-17, 10:41 PM
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Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

You have some genetic phenotypes of autism that can also have psychosis or paranoia


I think we are getting further and further from distinct black and white disorders

It’s starting to get interesting
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Old 11-16-17, 10:46 PM
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Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

I agree

Besides Minocycline showing efficacy in double blind research in reducing negative symptoms, also, surprising to me, the supplement NAC, often used in acetaminophen poisoning, demonstrated reducing the negative symptoms of schizophrenia in double-blind sources


Just conplete a search using Google Scholar
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Old 11-16-17, 10:47 PM
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Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

Is monocycline me an maoi?
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Old 11-16-17, 10:49 PM
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Re: Autistic spectrum disorder or simple schizophrenia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveddd View Post
Is monocycline me an maoi?
It is an antibiotic (off all things)


Complete a search using Google Scholar
to read the Scholarly literature
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