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  #16  
Old 06-01-05, 09:10 PM
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I don't know Ms. Weiss from a hole in the ground. It was the unsubstantiated post only that I was addressing. I don't really care where this lands as we go, I just want people to show some respect for documented positions where they have tried to be very helpful. It's all to rare to find people taking the time to make a clear case and this fellow did.

I'm just a little sensitive to the idle speculation. Sorry to unload on you but I am happy to be given the opportunity to make it more clear for you. It was good of you to ask. Thanks.
Cheers! Ian.
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Old 06-01-05, 10:28 PM
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I would have to agree with Ian. Seems like everyone has a theory of what ADHD REALLY is when some of the most intelligent people on this planet devote their life to this disorder and give us all the documentation we would ever need to follow their conclusions...but we don't.

We are mentally lazy...or we are in denial...or we have an axe to grind...or we don't believe in abnormal...or my church doesn't believe in adhd or we will simply clutch at any straw rather then face what is in front of us.

This little rant has nothing to do with your post or the new theory. You may actually be on to somethng and I read a recent article talking about different brain structure. I too am simply gripping.
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  #18  
Old 06-01-05, 11:37 PM
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Gripping? Me? Oh my g_d! I've been found out! :P
Thanks for letting me blow of some steam without having it taken too personally.

Back under the rock I came out from under... Ian.
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Old 06-04-05, 08:45 PM
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Lightbulb for CN: Scientific fact vs. opinion--and ADD as a "structure" (???)

Wait, are we talking about the theory of abnormal size in the prefrontal cortex here? ADD isn't a "brain structure," rather, it's theorized by some researchers to be a result of or evident by slightly smaller prefrontal cortex regions in the brain, an idea formulated by a few studies wherein scans were done on generally small populations with vaguely supportive results to the theory.

Saying that ADD is a brain structure is like saying that epilepsy is a brick building. The sentence--the wording itself--made no sense, that's what confused me, really.

:soapbox: Besides, have you actually done the research independently on the theory of frontal cortex size difference in the brain of an ADDer, to decide whether you personally believe that this is a relevant idea? Or are you simply listening to an author?

I'd encourage you to dig up scientific evidence of your own, perhaps by sifting through several articles and comparing the testing methods, subject populations, margin of error, results, etc. before you go and make a definitive statement about what ADD is, and about what Kimalimah believes--neither you nor I have any way of knowing whether Kimalimah truly believes the article's findings or supports the author enthusiastically--part of her job is providing references to sources of information, and I daresay she's going to try to do so objectively. It would be disrespectful for anyone to assume anything about another person's views and beliefs, wouldn't it? :foot:

I'm not taking any sides here--I'm just trying to make sure you've done your own research before you make declarative statements indicating the validity of an author's opinion. And while science is thought to be based on fact, the truth is that sometimes the results of an experiment are so "iffy" that, well, opinions of the researchers do play a part in the end. (After all, it's rather rare for the end of a study article to say "Results: We have no ****ing clue.")

KJ/C
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicallyNaive
Good post/thread. I do want to draw an important distinction, though:

Some, like Lynn Weiss, would argue vehemently that ADD exists as a particular brain structure but not as a disorder. (Although she objects to the term ADD, she uses it for clarity of language.) I think this is entirely plausible, as the psychological establishment is constantly evolving in its views of what is and isn't a pathology. For example, homosexuality was once considered a disorder but now (AFAICT) is not by most psychologists. Yet that doesn't preclude a genetic or physiological disposition toward homosexuality -- just that it's no longer seen as a sickness in need of a cure.

I'm certainly no psychologist, but from my perspective as an ADD person I see no reason why today's "disorder" shouldn't be tomorrow's... err, "mere difference".
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  #20  
Old 06-06-05, 09:54 AM
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KnittingJunkie,

Thanks for the info.

I must be poor at expressing myself, because it wasn't my intention to make a "definitive" or "declarative statement" about anything. I really regret posting on this thread now -- apparently I've ****ed people off, inadvertantly taken issue with an original post that I never intended to be in opposition to, pretentiously claimed expertise I never intended to claim, and just generally left a bad impression. I'll try harder to shut up on topics of which I'm ignorant. Unfortunately I guess that means I have nothing more to say.

Cheers,

Philip
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  #21  
Old 06-06-05, 10:29 AM
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I tried to edit to eliminate the pity party, and apparently the 30 minute limit elapsed during that time. Grrrrrr...... very frustrating.

I guess I'm just a little baffled at how anyone could read my posts as claiming some sort of authority, when as far as I know I'm being pretty open about my lack of knowledge on the topic. I tried to wrap my point in 16 layers of nuance, but that obviously didn't work, because everyone still thinks I'm asserting some sort of expertise. So in the future I'll take the easier road of keeping quiet.

Sorry to detract from the thread. Better to just chew me out via PM from here, probably.
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  #22  
Old 06-06-05, 12:12 PM
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whoa..

Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicallyNaive
I tried to edit to eliminate the pity party, and apparently the 30 minute limit elapsed during that time. Grrrrrr...... very frustrating.

I guess I'm just a little baffled at how anyone could read my posts as claiming some sort of authority, when as far as I know I'm being pretty open about my lack of knowledge on the topic. I tried to wrap my point in 16 layers of nuance, but that obviously didn't work, because everyone still thinks I'm asserting some sort of expertise. So in the future I'll take the easier road of keeping quiet.

Sorry to detract from the thread. Better to just chew me out via PM from here, probably.
Easy does it folks. We don't often find people under attack. If you are feeling this way, I'm sure it's not been about you personally. Please take some time to back up and think these things through so we can all learn from each other.

If we continue to communitcate we can ususally find some good in each other and begin to celebrate our strengths together.
Cheers! Ian
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  #23  
Old 06-06-05, 12:16 PM
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No worries Phillip. You just hit a nerve and we twitched. This is the thread which was intended to refute the claims from other memebers that adhd doesn't exist. A sore spot for many of us.

Please don't take it personally, my response wasn't meant that way.
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  #24  
Old 06-06-05, 11:49 PM
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I missed the twitch? I always miss the twitch. Hey, Philip if it makes you feel any better I make people twitch a lot lately but in the end they still love and respect me. My advice to all parties is to step back look at objectivly and take deep breaths when posting. Its never worked for me but hey its got to work for someone right?
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  #25  
Old 07-25-05, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnittingJunkie
Wait, are we talking about the theory of abnormal size in the prefrontal cortex here? ADD isn't a "brain structure," rather, it's theorized by some researchers to be a result of or evident by slightly smaller prefrontal cortex regions in the brain, an idea formulated by a few studies wherein scans were done on generally small populations with vaguely supportive results to the theory.

Saying that ADD is a brain structure is like saying that epilepsy is a brick building. The sentence--the wording itself--made no sense, that's what confused me, really.

:soapbox:
KJ/C
Excellent posting! By the way - you have some valid info there - we all need to be more selective in our reading of text regarding ANYTHING - especially if found on the world wide wierd.

Your point of abnormal size in the prefrontal cortex is on the button. I've seen the work and it was on a small group of children using MRIs and found a slight (empasis on slight) decrease in size of that area in children who were found to be ADHD. I've now heard from many who are asking me if it's actually a form of brain damage because of just that!

And absolutely ADD is not a "brain structure"! At best, we know from testing using radio-tagging of dopamine and norepinephrine that there is something going on in the frontal lobes of patients who fit the ADHD profile. While we are getting better at pinpointing various disorders using blood, neurotransmitters and binding agents in the brain it's still in it's infancy.

There is some very good testing going on that should be mentioned though.
I especially would like ADD'ers and interested parties to check out the National Library of Medicine Archive at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Citation . Short form - they have found a gene known as Dopamine Receptor D4 that appears different in a group of 39 children with ADHD symptoms. This appears to be an inherited gene and holds promise for more evidence of the ADHD theory that it's inherited (I believe that strongly too).

Also, there are now studies being done in eye movement in children/adults that merits promise where they show an aversion to the left in ADHD symptomatic patients when studied. Source: british medical research council - as seen on bbc online here : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4297391.stm

Another test being done now is with the connection of clumsiness and ADHD and whether or not it's a physical manifestation of the symptoms. Source: http://www.iapsych.com/resrprt3.pdf Note: not really new - but being considered a good watermark in children especially - ruling in or out as to ADHD.

These are all valid sources I think - and I like to follow these to their references and so on and get as much info on this as I can.
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  #26  
Old 07-25-05, 05:21 PM
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I don't understand the objection to my use of the word "structure". If my house has a huge living room and a tiny kitchen, and your house has a huge kitchen and a tiny living room, it seems like that would be fairly described as a "having different house structures," no? I honestly can't tell if the confusion is because I somehow worded it to sound like ADD is an entity floating around in the brain (which is not what I meant), or what.

At any rate, I didn't get this idea off the "world wide wierd [sic.]" and I didn't unquestioningly conclude that Weiss knew what she was talking about. All I did was make a highly speculative post and get flamed mercilessly for claiming some authority I never claimed. You can imagine how I arrived at the conclusion that this site is a place for highly judgmental people with some axe to grind who are content to take out their Angst on the first stranger to walk into their midst, not the supportive community I mistakenly thought I'd found.

Nevertheless, thanks for the interesting links.
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Old 07-25-05, 06:41 PM
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I am sorry that you had a bad experience here, flaming those with opposing views is not what this place is about. But to play the devils advocate, we do see many posts with the same basic theme - that ADHD is not a real, is over-diagnosed, is caused by bad parenting or personality flaws of some kind - lazyness, etc. The implication is that ADHD doesn't exist because it can't be seen on an x-ray or an MRI. "no scientific basis" fits that category. Generally the people posting this information are not doing so in an effort to help those of us on this forum. They have thier own agendas - some try to provoke a fight, other's are "Hubbardites" with a religious agenda ($$$$$$) , whatever.
After a while, it does start to pi$$ you off. I just don't pay those posts much attention, but others respond agressively - it's only human nature - it's an attack on our belief system.
It is typical that these type of posters don't have very many posts, and all generally tend to be on the same topic - they don't have much to say about anything else.
You will find that most of the people here are very nice, helpful types that you can talk to about anything, but you might want to stay clear of the controversial topics until you have a few posts under your belt - you will be taken more seriously then, and flammed less, I suspect.
Cheers,
Greg
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  #28  
Old 08-23-05, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicallyNaive
Good post/thread. I do want to draw an important distinction, though:

Some, like Lynn Weiss, would argue vehemently that ADD exists as a particular brain structure but not as a disorder. (Although she objects to the term ADD, she uses it for clarity of language.) I think this is entirely plausible, as the psychological establishment is constantly evolving in its views of what is and isn't a pathology. For example, homosexuality was once considered a disorder but now (AFAICT) is not by most psychologists. Yet that doesn't preclude a genetic or physiological disposition toward homosexuality -- just that it's no longer seen as a sickness in need of a cure.

I'm certainly no psychologist, but from my perspective as an ADD person I see no reason why today's "disorder" shouldn't be tomorrow's... err, "mere difference".
Just kind of like to second this thought. I think those that call ADD a deficit or a gift are both wrong. I see it as a trait. The way it is used and the setting in which it is used determine whether it is a gift or deficit. Like most human traits it can be (and usually is) expressed in both positive and negative ways at various times and in various places. Just my two cents.

I really appreciated the original post mctavish. I just got that question from my dad (a lawyer), so I think I'll print this off for him. I always get this stuff mixed up in my head when I get upset that someone thinks I'm making it up -- it'll be nice to have my cheat sheet with me!

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  #29  
Old 08-23-05, 12:42 PM
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Wow, when I responded to Cynically Naive's post I hadn't read all the post that followed. I guess some folks saw something there that I didn't see and I don't really think he was actually saying.

Something can be very real with out being a disorder. I was diagnosed over a period of years by three seperate physicians as a child and by a clinical psychologist with a advanced training in identifying ADHD as an adult and don't question that I have it. Is it a disorder? Well, when I quit my job, moved far from family and friends and became a stay at home mother of two little ADDer's - yes. It created a great deficit in pretty much ever arena of my life until I got ADD specific counseling and Concerta. Was it a deficit when I was working full time, doing an internship, working on a second master's degree, and teaching weekend personal growth workshops -- all the while maintaining a 4.0 GPA before medication? Sure didn't seem like it. Time, place, circumstances, support people, and attitude have a lot to do with whether ADD is a blessing or a curse in one's life. But is it real? Absolutely!

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  #30  
Old 08-23-05, 03:08 PM
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The journal article International Consensus 2002 is THE definitve article on the "proof" of ADHD as a disorder.
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