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  #46  
Old 09-01-05, 12:03 AM
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Thank you Scattered, McTavish, scuro and Futs.

Davelowe,

the points you make have been written about at ADDF (by other posters) and rebutted (by many of the same people setting the record straight today) more times than i care to remember ... it's hard for me to get up the energy to knock my head against yet another wall....

If you are here to seek info. about ADD and how it affects you or someone close to you. Please take some time to read and get a feel for the *supportive* nature of this site. Please introduce yourself in the introduction sub-forum. If you want to start over and become a part of the community we've created here, you've got that chance.

However, if you want to argue about the etiology and diagnosis of ADHD, or if you've come here to put mental illness into quotation marks ... then it might be best if you move along.

Please consider this a gentle reprimand and a reminder to be respectful of the *supportive* nature of this forum.

Thank you,

Wheezie
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  #47  
Old 09-01-05, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by scuro
Where is the "genetic cause" of Schizophrenia, BiPolar, Autism, Tourettes, Major Depression, OCD...etc? Go ahead and tell everyone on the board that these these conditions live in medical purgatory and basically they will laugh at you.

Shouldn't they also get a move on in finding the markers for these disorders? ....and what exactly is a medical disorder compared to just a plain disorder?

Finally who are these people who come on this board? Funny, you need only tell me a few words about someone I never met and I know a great deal about their strengths, weaknesses, and where they are going to encounter hardship. Is this just learned behaviour? Explain this one to me? Did we all just get ignored by dad growing up as Dr. Breggin suggests? He came up with the new acronym DADD to explain ADHD...really it's dad's fault. Strangely it never took off in our culture.
I have never once said ADHD does not exists. I have never stated that any conditions you listed do not exist.

There was a thread started called "Here's the proof" on ADHD, and not a single person has come forward and shown any shred of evidence that ADHD is biological or genetic despite ADHD being the most research "disorder".

A statement has been referenced on the CHADD website. As a former member, show the URL on the CHADD website to this document for review.

While stating "Scientific proof", the post was miselading, and people may believe it
.
"..was conclusively proven in the 1990 landmark glucose brainscan research study"

That cannot be duplicated and that was not stated. Science can be duplicated.

" the 1999 Multimodal Treatment Study" was flawed for a few reasons described and not mentioned..

".. ADHD is primarily thought", "Research to pinpoint abnormal genes is honing in on 2 genes,", "Dopamine dysregulation likely but not definitive", "Norepinephrine dysregulation probable". That is not science, on the most researced disorder there is. Those are unproven theories and "couching words.

Autism is a serious disorder which is extemely impairing - I am not going to tell those parents (or adults) that what they are going through is not real. The same with the others. There is simply no known cause on most after all these years.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/896046564

Depression was mentioned as "a Medical disorder on the basis of the chemical imbalance of the neurotransmitter serotonin".

What about the medications such as Effexor who have no action on serotonin, and are of the SNRI class of drugs (norepinephrine)? Are people taking medication and on on the wrong drug as that does not affect the "science", or is there any science behind antidepressants at all?

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_pe...ed.cgi?effexor
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_pe...ned.cgi?lilpro
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?oky71
http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/antidep...ts/default.htm

Like it or not, the disorders mentionedare listed in the DSM as mental disorders. No one has shown a genetic cause, or biological cause for ADHD or any disorder listed in there. No authoratative source calls them medical disorders.

Someone post the proof ADHD is genetic, and biological. No one can. Barkley is below taking money from drug companies, yet Pelham (CHADD board member) and Haislip (DEA) are the ones wanting people to know things. Why is that? Will people say what they are paid to say?

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11717
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  #48  
Old 09-01-05, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Wheezie
Thank you Scattered, McTavish, scuro and Futs.

Davelowe,

the points you make have been written about at ADDF (by other posters) and rebutted (by many of the same people setting the record straight today) more times than i care to remember ... it's hard for me to get up the energy to knock my head against yet another wall....


If you are here to seek info. about ADD and how it affects you or someone close to you. Please take some time to read and get a feel for the *supportive* nature of this site. Please introduce yourself in the introduction sub-forum. If you want to start over and become a part of the community we've created here, you've got that chance.

However, if you want to argue about the etiology and diagnosis of ADHD, or if you've come here to put mental illness into quotation marks ... then it might be best if you move along.


Please consider this a gentle reprimand and a reminder to be respectful of the *supportive* nature of this forum.


Thank you,

Wheezie
No one from ADDF has set the record straight. There is still no link to a genetic or biological cause for ADHD. The subject is getting changed frequently, and theories are posted.

The first post I read I felt was was extremely misleading and inaccurate which had to do with genetics, and corrected two studies for other visitors. There is nothing wrong correcting two studies that were extremely flawed, one unable to be replicated. No one knew that until I posted that. They may want to at least consider that, and will give them the credit..

I didn't make the original post, I did correct some scientific errors no one would have known about. If it is not listed a mental illness in your opinion, talk to the American Psychiatric Assocation - they develop and update the criteria, I don't. The AMA will take over when it's biological.

I take that as reponding to erroneous data and questions posed gets you a reprimand. I'll leave my comments stand, let others follow up and have the last word as surely they will. I will let the others reading extract what they want and leave it to their judgement. Feel free to email when the biological cause and genetic cause is known.
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  #49  
Old 09-01-05, 08:56 AM
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Davelowe, You are stating your opinion (more more probably someone else's opinion that you read) as fact. You're putting small bits and pieces of things you copied from other places and I can't even make out what they're saying because they are too small, taken out of their context, and not pulling together as a coherent thought. I can't even follow your arguement. Are you familiar with twin studies, or adoption studies of AD/HD -- they've shown very powerful genetic associations. Zametkin's study (1990) was the landmark study, but it was not the only study of it's kind (feel free to read Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in Adults by Paul H. Wender, MD -- who discusses etiology with much more understanding and skill than I will be able to muster, but I'll make a rough stab at some of it). I've got to get off now, since I'm using someone else's computer, but I'll be back later to share about other studies.

Scattered

Last edited by Scattered; 09-01-05 at 09:12 AM..
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  #50  
Old 09-01-05, 10:32 AM
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Okay, continuing ... (the following is taken from Wender's Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in Adults -- in case you don't know who Wender is he has been researching adult ADD for more than 25 years and is one of the world's leading expert of adult ADHD).

A similar study to on blood glucose metabolism was done by Matochik et al. (1993). They examined the effects of methylphenidate and D-amphetamine on cerebral glucose metabolism of 27 "hyperactive" adults. Amphetamine produced no consistent change in glucose metabolism. Methylphenidate (Ritalin) increaed glucose metabolism in some areas and decreased it in others. The increases and decreases were not the same for the two stimulants.

Wender states:
"We have two kinds of strong evidence in adults that ADHD is metabolically hetrogeneous:

(l) In our study of cerebrospinal fluid, described earlier, the ADHD adults who did not respond to methylphenidate had a significantly higher level of HVA than the responders (Reimherr et al., 1984)

(2) The considerable variation in drug responsivity suggests heterogeneous metabolism. Some patients -- indistinguishable clinically from the others -- do not respond to stimulants. Others respond preferentially to either D-amphetamine or methylphenidate..." from Wender's book Adult Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder.(p. 116)

Wender goes on to stress the importance of further seperating out the sub groups of AD/HD in determining genetic etiology.

Other kinds of studies:

Giedd (1994) used MRI to examine the areas of the corpus callosum in ADHD and normal boys. They found that two anterior regions, the rostrum and rostral body, were significantly smaller in ADHD children.

On adoption studies, Wender comments: "The most powerful clinical method for separating the effects of nature and nurture consists of adoption studies. Adoption constitutes a scientifically well-designed (but unintended) social experiment by which one can determine whether an individual adoptee's psychopathology is correlated with his nature or nurture: with his biological parents, who supplid his genes..." (p.93)

Wender goes into great detail on the design and finding of these studies in the chapter on etiology -- I'll just share his conclusions.

"These adoption studies... have provided more solid date showing that "hyperactivity" (broadly defined) has genetic contribution. Second, the adoptive parents studies have shown that psychopathology in the rearing parents does not necessarily accompany the development of ADHD. Third, they have shown that some psychiatric disorders associated with conduct disorder --"alcoholism, Antisocial Personality Disorder ("psychopathy," "sociopathy"), somatization disorder ""Briquet's syndrome," "hysteria") -- are associated with hyperactivity and are also genetically transmitted. (p. 99).

I could go on and on, but I've probably already done too much of that already. So Davelowe, you are correct to the point where you say all the evidence is not in yet. You are incorrect in your assertation that there is no scientific backing for AD/HD or the the effectiveness of the medications used in treating it. If I got into all those studies, the moderators certainly would delete my post for taking up too much space (they may do that anyway -- watch out for a slightly bored, very hyperfocused, Scattered with too much vacation time on her hands! ).

If you're truly interested in learning more about current AD/HD research and not just proving your point, these books are a good place to start in addition to Wender's very scholarly book (I also really like Barkley's book Taking Charge of ADHD: The Complete, Authoritative Guide for Parents, but you seem to have already written him off in your mind):

Driven to Distraction, Answers to Distraction, and Delivered from Distraction by Hallowell and Ratey give lots of the current research in layman's terms. There are many others, but these were the ones I found easiest to understand.

Scattered

Last edited by Scattered; 09-01-05 at 10:51 AM..
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  #51  
Old 09-01-05, 11:02 AM
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If so many people from disparate walks of life, cultures,religions,countries,ethnicities, life experiences have the same set of behavioral traits and in many instances describe them in the same way. Then they must by pure common sense reasoning share some biological underpinning for it.

Ive been aware of and described many of the traits off ADD in myself before I ever heard of it. I was diagnosed twice previous, third time is a charm. What validated it for me was reading the postings of real people describing the same exact behaviors.

The DSM is a book. It changes periodically. It was written by people who are fallible like everyone else. There are also a certain amount of politics concerning what is published in it.

All scientific fact starts off with first a hypothesis. A question. Whether or not the question of what causes of ADD has been definitively answered doesn't lessen the impact it has on peoples lives.
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  #52  
Old 09-01-05, 11:13 AM
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Well said Mike! My personal experience is more compeling evidence to me than anything I've read. Reading others posting about similar experiences is very validating.

Scattered
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  #53  
Old 09-01-05, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scattered
Davelowe, You are stating your opinion (more more probably someone else's opinion that you read) as fact. You're putting small bits and pieces of things you copied from other places and I can't even make out what they're saying because they are too small, taken out of their context, and not pulling together as a coherent thought. I can't even follow your arguement. Are you familiar with twin studies, or adoption studies of AD/HD -- they've shown very powerful genetic associations. Zametkin's study (1990) was the landmark study, but it was not the only study of it's kind (feel free to read Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in Adults by Paul H. Wender, MD -- who discusses etiology with much more understanding and skill than I will be able to muster, but I'll make a rough stab at some of it). I've got to get off now, since I'm using someone else's computer, but I'll be back later to share about other studies.

Scattered
I would immediately discredit (personal bias) anyone who has done research and has been in a position of power at the advocacy group CHADD.

When you've been investigated by DEA, and appear in Annual Reports of The United Nations Nation's International Narcotics Board, get about $1 million a year from drug companies - you are too biased and have a vested interest.

You probably remember the PBS documentary a decade ago. Is that where that International statement is from? CHADD?
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  #54  
Old 09-01-05, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davelowe
I would immediately discredit (personal bias) anyone who has done research and has been in a position of power at the advocacy group CHADD.
I'm confused -- you were asking for research and now you're immediately discrediting anyone who has done research? What position of power with CHADD did Dr. Paul Wender Distinguished Professor of Psychiatry and Director of Psychiatric Research at the University of Utah School of Medicine hold? I'm also unclear about what your grip with CHADD is. As Mike so well put it, all people are fallible, so I would expect in their history they may have made some mistakes (although I'm not aware of them), but that doesn't invalidate the benefits people have derived from their association with others families effected by AD/HD through CHADD.

I really do know better than to argue with you about this. You've obviously made up you're mind already, but I'm bored, so the bait looked tempting and being one of those disinhibited ADDers, I couldn't resist!

Scattered
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  #55  
Old 09-01-05, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Scattered
Hey, Davelowe -- what's you're agenda? I don't see you giving the sources McTavish asked for -- you just keep repeating your opinion that this isn't real science without anything credible to back up your statements. A lot of people come here to try to figure out how best to deal with the impact AD/HD has had on their lives or their children's lives. Planting doubt in people's minds and invalidating their diagnosis and treatment regimes without giving them scientifically researched facts (just criticizing everyone else's reporting of research studies) does a real disservice to the other ADD Forum participants.

I'm not as well verse on these studies as some of the others who have already responded to you, but I've done enough research and reading to know that they have found association between two genes dealing with dopamine (already explained in an above post) and if memory serves (since I don't have access to my references since I'm out of town right now) one of those genes shows up in 60% (or more) of individuals with AD/HD, OCD, and Tourettes. That's particularly interesting to me, because when I found my birth family I discovered that my brother has Tourettes, my cousin in OCD, my aunt and a couple of my cousins are AD/HD as am I. Since I didn't grow up knowing any of them, a shared environment couldn't account the connection.

Knowing something does exist as was demonstrated with the PET scans is not the same as knowing the exact etiology. Most probably we'll find out that there are different sub groups of AD/HD and that they are influenced by different combinations of genes. Most medical diagnosis of any type is based on a percent probability -- if you have x, y, z symptoms there is an __% chance you have _______ condition. Eventually, we'll have more answers in medicine in general and psychiatry in particular, but while were learning about all the pieces it makes sense proceed with the best knowledge we have (not with disinformation). An awful lot of people have been helped by receiving professional AD/HD diagnosis, treatment,and medication, and I'm one of them. :soapbox:

Scattered
I missed those sources but will provide them, but it can't be much more than the current diagnostic criteria. That is the only thing that confirms a diagnosis of ADHD.

What existed more than decade ago in PET scans cannot be duplicated. It should be easy enough to do.

To know the exact exact etiology is to know the cause. Short of that, no one knows other than below. I can keep repeating it, but there are theories.

The current diagnosis for ADHD is 100% certain and does not invalidate the diagnosis of anyone reading this - they'll still have ADHD. If you have the symptoms, exclude other conditions, and had those symptoms for 6 months and they are impairing - you have ADHD. (And some as a child).

If there is science that went into that, I have never seen it. That does not mean people reading this will "undiagnose" themselves based on a message board. Give them some credit. Show them the science in that criteria if concerned they may not seek treatment.
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Old 09-01-05, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Scattered
I'm confused -- you were asking for research and now you're immediately discrediting anyone who has done research? What position of power with CHADD did Dr. Paul Wender Distinguished Professor of Psychiatry and Director of Psychiatric Research at the University of Utah School of Medicine hold? I'm also unclear about what your grip with CHADD is. As Mike so well put it, all people are fallible, so I would expect in their history they may have made some mistakes (although I'm not aware of them), but that doesn't invalidate the benefits people have derived from their association with others families effected by AD/HD through CHADD.

I really do know better than to argue with you about this. You've obviously made up you're mind already, but I'm bored, so the bait looked tempting and being one of those disinhibited ADDers, I couldn't resist!

Scattered
I have made mistakes, we are called humans. You distance yourself from them, admit them publicly, and move on. Wender has never "distanced" himself. You have to do that especially if an NIH independant scientists, or you don't look objective. There is very little research from people who were not at some point members of CHADD.

I don't have my mind made up on anything - thoughts and opinions subject to change.

Two people are in an article above griping about CHADD. One a current board member who was financially "blacklisted" by drug companies for wanting people to know things, and Haislip from DEA.

Jensen from CHADD, LDA and NIMH does the MTA study. He forgets a sugar pill in a landmark study, and is on Concerta brochures. I'm sure he is payed well. He stands silent. He has 4 kids with ADHD and chooses not to medicate. He knows who does the research. Opinion.
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  #57  
Old 09-01-05, 12:11 PM
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My best friend is a cardiac nurse practioneer. If I experience shortness of breath, pressure on my chest, and pain radiating down my left arm, she will give me an aspirin and send me to the cardiac floor ASAP. Based only on my symptoms. We use symptom check lists all the time in medicine to identify the most likely underlying problem and treat it accordingly. Occasionally we are wrong (my mother had chest pain and it turned out to be cancer), but that doesn't mean that we throw out all the research, symptoms lists, etc because many, many people's lives are saved by using those symptoms in diagnosis and treatment (my father had a cardiac cath and by pass based on his symptoms which saved his life). It is no different when dealing with Tourettes, OCD, AD/HD, depression, etc -- proper treatment can not only improve, but actually save lives.

Last night I read a post on ADDF by a mother whose son in his early 20's was talked out of taking the meds that had so effectively worked for him and ended up losing his life. I'm not willing to get into the details of the destructive habits my medication helped me escape, but I guarantee you it made a positive and immediate life altering difference.

Scattered
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Old 09-01-05, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave123
I have made mistakes, we are called humans. You distance yourself from them, admit them publicly, and move on. Wender has never "distanced" himself. You have to do that especially if an NIH independant scientists, or you don't look objective. There is very little research from people who were not at some point members of CHADD.

I don't have my mind made up on anything - thoughts and opinions subject to change.

Two people are in an article above griping about CHADD. One a current board member who was financially "blacklisted" by drug companies for wanting people to know things, and Haislip from DEA.

Jensen from CHADD, LDA and NIMH does the MTA study. He forgets a sugar pill in a landmark study, and is on Concerta brochures. I'm sure he is payed well. He stands silent. He has 4 kids with ADHD and chooses not to medicate. He knows who does the research. Opinion.
You haven't given enough information here for me to make an informed opinion. What article are you referring to? I don't know the parameters of the study Jensen did or if a control group was used or why he doesn't medicate his children. I know why I currently don't medicate my seven year old -- it's because all medication has side effects. As long a I can minimize the havoc AD/HD wrecks on her life through exercise, home school, diet, behavior modification and such, I will do so. However, in order to do that I need my medication in order to have the consistency and emotional stability to do those things. If her symptoms ever began to cause her problems we can't overcome by other means, I will definately encourage her to take medication, because sometimes the side effects of not taking medication are a lot greater than the side effects from taking it. I guarantee you that when my kids are older and I can rearrange my life to the point where I can do without medication, I'll do it. For now, my family's well being comes first.

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Old 09-01-05, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Scattered
My best friend is a cardiac nurse practioneer. If I experience shortness of breath, pressure on my chest, and pain radiating down my left arm, she will give me an aspirin and send me to the cardiac floor ASAP. Based only on my symptoms. We use symptom check lists all the time in medicine to identify the most likely underlying problem and treat it accordingly. Occasionally we are wrong (my mother had chest pain and it turned out to be cancer), but that doesn't mean that we throw out all the research, symptoms lists, etc because many, many people's lives are saved by using those symptoms in diagnosis and treatment (my father had a cardiac cath and by pass based on his symptoms which saved his life). It is no different when dealing with Tourettes, OCD, AD/HD, depression, etc -- proper treatment can not only improve, but actually save lives.

Last night I read a post on ADDF by a mother whose son in his early 20's was talked out of taking the meds that had so effectively worked for him and ended up losing his life. I'm not willing to get into the details of the destructive habits my medication helped me escape, but I guarantee you it made a positive and immediate life altering difference.

Scattered
I agree, and your best friend sees uite a bit. With that checklists follows up with testing to rule in/out the problem. With ADHD, medication inded helps -- especially those with severe impairments.

With ADHD, you are diagnosed simply with a checklist with (unlike your friend) no further testing. Have 100 people without ADHD take Eli Lilly's screener at www.adultadd.com and see how many have it, can confirm it, and know one risk below. My 65 year old mother has adult ADD.

There are also serious risks to medication, and drug companies aren't telling people:
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWER.../ANS01335.html
http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/InfoShe...adderalHCP.htm
Find that on the drug website: http://www.adhdhelp.net

Reasonable people agree at least the risks and benefits should be known.
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Old 09-01-05, 12:47 PM
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Reasonable people agree at least the risks and benefits should be known.
On this point we completely agree. See I can be a reasonable people after all!

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