ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community  

Go Back   ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community > ADULTS AND ADD/ADHD > Adults with ADD > General ADD Talk
Register Blogs FAQ Chat Members List Calendar Donate Gallery Arcade Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 01-01-17, 05:06 PM
Little Missy's Avatar
Little Missy Little Missy is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: BIG, Wonderful, Wyoming USA
Posts: 13,760
Thanks: 20,132
Thanked 18,892 Times in 10,057 Posts
Little Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyhound1 View Post
Yep, it does feel like deja vu all over again. I am just glad no one has argued it's a gift. We've been there and done that one too.
I LOVE gifts!!

I'm so old now I don't even think about it. I just want my rx's and go about my "best that I can" life until nothing is going to my plan and then I'm waving a snow shovel stuck in the middle of the road cursing my guts out with not a shred of shame.
__________________
The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you are uncool ~ Lester Bangs

And in the end, the love you take; is equal to the love you make...Beatles Abbey Road 1969
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-01-17, 05:18 PM
Little Missy's Avatar
Little Missy Little Missy is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: BIG, Wonderful, Wyoming USA
Posts: 13,760
Thanks: 20,132
Thanked 18,892 Times in 10,057 Posts
Little Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond reputeLittle Missy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Missy View Post
I LOVE gifts!!

I'm so old now I don't even think about it. I just want my rx's and go about my "best that I can" life until nothing is going to my plan and then I'm waving a snow shovel stuck in the middle of the road cursing my guts out with not a shred of shame.
In a really nice neighbourhood in front of the neighbours.

They probably just look outside and say, "Oh, its her again."
__________________
The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you are uncool ~ Lester Bangs

And in the end, the love you take; is equal to the love you make...Beatles Abbey Road 1969
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Little Missy For This Useful Post:
aeon (01-01-17)
  #33  
Old 01-01-17, 06:29 PM
aeon's Avatar
aeon aeon is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posts: 7,039
Thanks: 21,049
Thanked 12,139 Times in 5,387 Posts
aeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
It also irritates me when people claim their own opinions are "factual" and that anybody who disagrees with them are wrong.

It's maybe your facts. It's certainly not mines or the way I see things.
I never stated my opinion.

If you want to argue with the DSM, go right ahead. It is the benchmark and standard, after all.

It changes nothing, save the evidence you are choosing willfully to not engage with reality.

You can do that if you like, but isn't ADHD enough of a challenge already?

This is most definitely a matter of fact, and not one of opinion. What part of "by definition" are you failing to understand?

I mean, there's nothing personal here. This is just what the book says. There's no arguing that, unless you are the type to tilt at windmills. I have to accept and live with it too, my desire to pretend otherwise notwithstanding.


Best to You,
Ian
__________________
@>~,~~'~ Voici mon secret. Il est très simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #34  
Old 01-01-17, 06:58 PM
Fraser_0762's Avatar
Fraser_0762 Fraser_0762 is online now
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the clouds?
Posts: 4,486
Thanks: 3,304
Thanked 5,243 Times in 2,567 Posts
Fraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

The purpose of the DSM is to point out the challenges faced with disabilities and disorders. Not to point out any possible benefits. But nowhere in the DSM does it state that there are no benefits, it just doesn't make any mention of whether there are any or not, because that's not the purpose of it.

Just because the benefits aren't laid out on a piece of paper, doesn't mean there aren't any.

If you can actually point to any scientifically proven facts that show that there are no benefits whatsoever, then i'd give that point of view greater credibility.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Fraser_0762 For This Useful Post:
RextheDog (05-16-17)
  #35  
Old 01-01-17, 07:41 PM
aeon's Avatar
aeon aeon is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posts: 7,039
Thanks: 21,049
Thanked 12,139 Times in 5,387 Posts
aeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond reputeaeon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
The purpose of the DSM is to point out the challenges faced with disabilities and disorders. Not to point out any possible benefits. But nowhere in the DSM does it state that there are no benefits, it just doesn't make any mention of whether there are any or not, because that's not the purpose of it.
No, it makes no mention of any because therein ADHD is defined...as a neurodevelopmental disorder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Just because the benefits aren't laid out on a piece of paper, doesn't mean there aren't any.
Again, what part of "by definition" are you failing to understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
If you can actually point to any scientifically proven facts that show that there are no benefits whatsoever, then i'd give that point of view greater credibility.
There's no use in trying to prove a negative, so the onus is on you to demonstrate there is clinically-verified, peer-reviewed research that proves there are benefits to having ADHD.

In any event, assertions made without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.


Good Luck,
Ian
__________________
@>~,~~'~ Voici mon secret. Il est très simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-01-17, 07:52 PM
BellaVita's Avatar
BellaVita BellaVita is offline
Mrs dvdnvwls
 

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: -
Posts: 14,503
Thanks: 28,348
Thanked 18,896 Times in 9,303 Posts
BellaVita has a reputation beyond reputeBellaVita has a reputation beyond reputeBellaVita has a reputation beyond reputeBellaVita has a reputation beyond reputeBellaVita has a reputation beyond reputeBellaVita has a reputation beyond reputeBellaVita has a reputation beyond reputeBellaVita has a reputation beyond reputeBellaVita has a reputation beyond reputeBellaVita has a reputation beyond reputeBellaVita has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

I'm not sure my ADHD has any advantages, but one good thing that resulted from ADHD is that I've met my husband because we both found each other on these forums – which wouldn't of happened if we both didn't have ADHD.

I guess us both having strong emotions from ADHD also makes us love each other extra strong. And we have extra understanding and compassion and we don't blame or judge the other when the other has problems caused by the disorder. (One of our things that we strive for and embrace is a blame-free relationship)

I think us both having ADHD is one thing that helps us click so well.
__________________
What ifs are like poop. It's better to flush them right away, or the whole place will soon stink. - dvdnvwls
Remember life and then your life becomes a better world.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to BellaVita For This Useful Post:
aeon (01-01-17), Johnny Slick (01-01-17), Letching Gray (01-13-17)
  #37  
Old 01-01-17, 08:17 PM
Lunacie's Avatar
Lunacie Lunacie is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: south-central Kansas
Posts: 17,690
Thanks: 17,668
Thanked 23,685 Times in 10,950 Posts
Lunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
I just wanted to address a couple of issues here... first up, I'm not sure that comparing ADHD to other mental conditions is a really great path to go down, especially if you're going to insist that it provides no direct benefits. There are absolutely artists in lots of fields with bipolar disorder, for example, who really do create a lot of extra output during their manic phases. You can look at them and say "oh yeah, but if they were 'normal' they'd be able to produce during their depressive phases too", but I'm not actually sure if that's true. The thing is, the overwhelming majority of 'normal' people don't produce art, like, at all. I think you sometimes need a kind of a breaking point of inspiration or mania or ability to focus heavily to get to the point to where you are willing to create a lot of bad art with the knowledge that the practice will eventually lead you to create good art.

.....
The thing is, I don't believe this. Can you provide some supportive evidence that "normal people don't produce art" ... ?
__________________
ADD is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what you know.
-RUSSELL A. BARKLEY, PH.D.


As far as I know, there is nothing positive about ADHD that people can't have w out ADHD. ~ ADD me
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Lunacie For This Useful Post:
aeon (01-01-17)
  #38  
Old 01-01-17, 09:49 PM
Johnny Slick's Avatar
Johnny Slick Johnny Slick is offline
The Von Kaiser of Moderators
 

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Chicago, Il
Posts: 313
Thanks: 439
Thanked 523 Times in 259 Posts
Johnny Slick is a glorious beacon of lightJohnny Slick is a glorious beacon of lightJohnny Slick is a glorious beacon of lightJohnny Slick is a glorious beacon of lightJohnny Slick is a glorious beacon of light
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
The thing is, I don't believe this. Can you provide some supportive evidence that "normal people don't produce art" ... ?
That's not what I said. I said that the overwhelming majority of "normal" people (and I use that in quotes because I dislike the term) don't produce art. The vast majority of people with ADHD don't produce art either. Sorry, I don't have stats available here. I do get the sense that ADHD (as well as other mental conditions like bipolar disorder) are over-represented in the arts, just based on people that I know, but nope, I don't have stats to back me up on that, sorry. Also, please stop misattributing arguments to me.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-01-17, 10:31 PM
Lunacie's Avatar
Lunacie Lunacie is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: south-central Kansas
Posts: 17,690
Thanks: 17,668
Thanked 23,685 Times in 10,950 Posts
Lunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
That's not what I said. I said that the overwhelming majority of "normal" people (and I use that in quotes because I dislike the term) don't produce art. The vast majority of people with ADHD don't produce art either. Sorry, I don't have stats available here. I do get the sense that ADHD (as well as other mental conditions like bipolar disorder) are over-represented in the arts, just based on people that I know, but nope, I don't have stats to back me up on that, sorry. Also, please stop misattributing arguments to me.
The reason I used quotes was because I quoted your own words.
I'm not sure what the confusion is about.

Artists probably are a small number of any demographic, but it did sound like
you were saying that more people with mental disorders produce art than
"normal" people do.

Thanks for clarifying that neither group seems to have an advantage in the
field of the arts.
__________________
ADD is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what you know.
-RUSSELL A. BARKLEY, PH.D.


As far as I know, there is nothing positive about ADHD that people can't have w out ADHD. ~ ADD me
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-01-17, 10:47 PM
Johnny Slick's Avatar
Johnny Slick Johnny Slick is offline
The Von Kaiser of Moderators
 

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Chicago, Il
Posts: 313
Thanks: 439
Thanked 523 Times in 259 Posts
Johnny Slick is a glorious beacon of lightJohnny Slick is a glorious beacon of lightJohnny Slick is a glorious beacon of lightJohnny Slick is a glorious beacon of lightJohnny Slick is a glorious beacon of light
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

No you didn't. You quoted half of what I said.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 01-01-17, 11:21 PM
anonymouslyadd's Avatar
anonymouslyadd anonymouslyadd is offline
Moderator of all seasons
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: .
Posts: 14,271
Blog Entries: 35
Thanks: 16,515
Thanked 16,123 Times in 8,152 Posts
anonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond reputeanonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond reputeanonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond reputeanonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond reputeanonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond reputeanonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond reputeanonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond reputeanonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond reputeanonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond reputeanonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond reputeanonymouslyadd has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

There are none.
__________________
Read three reasons to never share your ADD here.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to anonymouslyadd For This Useful Post:
aeon (01-02-17), MickeMouseFan (05-02-17)
  #42  
Old 01-01-17, 11:54 PM
Lunacie's Avatar
Lunacie Lunacie is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: south-central Kansas
Posts: 17,690
Thanks: 17,668
Thanked 23,685 Times in 10,950 Posts
Lunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond reputeLunacie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
No you didn't. You quoted half of what I said.
I bolded the whole sentence, but didn't put the whole thing into quotes in my question.
I feel that you're being nit-picky about it.

Clearly I understood what you were saying,
and I think you probably understood what I was asking.

You did clarify your statement that neither group has a marked advantage in the
field of the arts. So I'm happy to let this go now. I hope you are too.
__________________
ADD is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what you know.
-RUSSELL A. BARKLEY, PH.D.


As far as I know, there is nothing positive about ADHD that people can't have w out ADHD. ~ ADD me
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-02-17, 12:20 AM
dvdnvwls dvdnvwls is offline
Mr. BllVt
 

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Anywhere I can
Posts: 14,917
Thanks: 1,278
Thanked 17,952 Times in 9,009 Posts
dvdnvwls has a reputation beyond reputedvdnvwls has a reputation beyond reputedvdnvwls has a reputation beyond reputedvdnvwls has a reputation beyond reputedvdnvwls has a reputation beyond reputedvdnvwls has a reputation beyond reputedvdnvwls has a reputation beyond reputedvdnvwls has a reputation beyond reputedvdnvwls has a reputation beyond reputedvdnvwls has a reputation beyond reputedvdnvwls has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
It also irritates me when people claim their own opinions are "factual" and that anybody who disagrees with them are wrong.

It's maybe your facts. It's certainly not mines or the way I see things.
Then I'm interested to hear which ADHD symptoms you enjoy and treasure the most.

Please make sure not to mention anything that a non-ADHD person could also have - keep it to things that are only available to us who do have ADHD.
__________________
Postmodernism, the school of 'thought' that proclaimed 'There are no truths, only interpretations' has largely played itself out in absurdity, but it has left behind a generation of academics in the humanities disabled by their distrust of the very idea of truth and their disrespect for evidence, settling for 'conversations' in which nobody is wrong and nothing can be confirmed, only asserted with whatever style you can muster.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to dvdnvwls For This Useful Post:
aeon (01-02-17), Little Missy (01-02-17), randomguy1235 (02-04-17)
  #44  
Old 01-02-17, 08:39 AM
sarahsweets's Avatar
sarahsweets sarahsweets is online now
Mod-A-holic
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: nj, usa
Posts: 24,694
Thanks: 5,537
Thanked 28,922 Times in 13,087 Posts
sarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond reputesarahsweets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
Yeah... nowhere in there did I say that schizophrenia/BPD/et al were not debilitating conditions. I said that they, too, had their positive or semi-positive sides, just like ADHD does. I did not say that the net effect of them was positive, or that people who have BPD or schizophrenia (or ADHD for that matter) live more fulfilled lives than people without these conditions. I understand that this is a passionate issue for you but you're putting words in my mouth.
True, you didnt say they werent debilitating but the fact that you did say there were positive things about them (at least with regards to schizophrenia and Bipolar) to me is sort of downplaying the deficits they come with.

Quote:
As for the generalized anger there... perhaps I should cite my sources better but I'm pretty sure that the things I'd said about schizophrenia in particular are actually supported by current medical opinion on the subject, so perhaps your anger is better directed towards the psychiatric community rather than me.
So you are saying that current medical opinion supports the idea that there are positive things about adhd, bipolar and schizophrenia?

Quote:
Finally, no offense but this "think of how much better this person would be if they didn't suffer from X" line is a complete crock of ****, and not just as it pertains to ADHD either. I'm sorry, but you just plain cannot separate who a person is from their brain chemistry, or for that matter their upbringing or the coping and defense mechanisms they've built up for themselves over the years. You and everyone else aren't just the sum total of all these things as well as a bunch of other factors, you and everyone else in the world are the complicated result of the mixture between all of these things. Perhaps John Nash would have been an even more amazing genius if he didn't suffer from schizophrenia, but perhaps he would not have been a genius at all. The question is basically the same thing as asking "imagine how much happier Al Gore would be if he was a dog".
I dont think there is anything wrong with looking at a person with a disorder, their successes and wondering how much more successful they would be without it. By definition these things are disorders because they are diagnosed by impairments and treated with things like medication to relieve those impairments. No one treats a genius with medication, or a successful person with medication if there are no impairments.
__________________
President of the No F's given society.

I carried a watermelon?

I've always been one of a kind. It just hasnt always been positive.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sarahsweets For This Useful Post:
Little Missy (01-02-17), Lunacie (01-02-17), randomguy1235 (02-04-17)
  #45  
Old 01-02-17, 08:46 AM
Fraser_0762's Avatar
Fraser_0762 Fraser_0762 is online now
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the clouds?
Posts: 4,486
Thanks: 3,304
Thanked 5,243 Times in 2,567 Posts
Fraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond reputeFraser_0762 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the advantages of having ADHD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdnvwls View Post
Then I'm interested to hear which ADHD symptoms you enjoy and treasure the most.

Please make sure not to mention anything that a non-ADHD person could also have - keep it to things that are only available to us who do have ADHD.
Abilities aren't considered "symptoms". That's why they aren't mentioned in the DSM. But you all know that full well.

Take Autism for example, there is no mention in the DSM about having great logical arithmetic skills or the ability to recognize patterns in things that most people can't. But it's a well established fact that most people with Autism possess these kind of abilities. But they aren't considered "symptoms" so they aren't mentioned in the DSM.

I think people understand full well what i'm talking about, but are just looking for an argument in a place where there really isn't one. So i'm not going to be drawn into this any further.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ADHD: Underdiagnosed and Undermedicated? APSJ Science in the Media 17 01-13-17 06:20 AM
Not sure if appropriate place for this topic, but my philosophy lavita_bella Open Science & Philosophical Discussion 6 08-07-15 10:54 AM
50 Conditions that Mimic ADHD dude102 Adult Diagnosis & Treatment 6 06-18-12 03:24 AM
ADHD Symptoms and Dietary Connections bof00 Science in the Media 54 06-03-11 08:52 PM
Datamonitor: ADHD Children Not Coming to Attention of Parents and Teachers Andi ADD News 0 10-27-04 04:37 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 2003 - 2015 ADD Forums