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  #16  
Old 06-24-12, 03:04 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

You can try this one for a start: A Genetic Study on Attention Problems and Academic Skills: Results of a Longitudinal Study in Twins

Free full text article with lots of links to other relevant studies.
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  #17  
Old 06-24-12, 04:22 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

This is a very interesting discussion and I'm enjoying it.

As I've posted more than once, the range of IQ scores for ADHD individuals literally runs

the gamut, from Mild MR to "Genius (Very Superior and beyond)."

The points I'd like to add here are simply these :

1) IQ tests, of which I've given several thousand over the years, are a measure of what

a person KNOWS;

2) ADHD is considered to be a Performance or a DOING Disorder;

3) In other words, "ADHD Is DOING What You KNOW And Not KNOWING What To DO;"

4) What I do in my (non -diagnostic) psych. evals., is to give an IQ test, usually a

screening measure instead of a full scale, and then compare that with an Adaptive

Behavior Scale.

Assuming the results are valid and consistent with the history of impairments in major

life activities across settings (including the DSM IV TR symptoms, with age and gender

referencing if needed), the diagnostic hypothesis would then be that for someone with

"true (authentic)" ADHD, there should be a large discrepancy between the two scores

(i.e., meaning the IQ percentile rank should be higher than the Adaptive percentile

ranking);

5) IQ tests suffer from Poor Ecological Validity (taking a test in a quiet room with an

examiner, is NOT the same as being in a class room, on the job, driving a car, doing

chores, etc.), and Small Sample Size and;

6) Lastly, without meds, ADHD DOES lower IQ scores by approximately 7-9 / 10 points.

Hope that helps.


tc

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  #18  
Old 06-24-12, 08:26 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by mctavish23 View Post
This is a very interesting discussion and I'm enjoying it.

As I've posted more than once, the range of IQ scores for ADHD individuals literally runs

the gamut, from Mild MR to "Genius (Very Superior and beyond)."

The points I'd like to add here are simply these :

1) IQ tests, of which I've given several thousand over the years, are a measure of what

a person KNOWS;

2) ADHD is considered to be a Performance or a DOING Disorder;

3) In other words, "ADHD Is DOING What You KNOW And Not KNOWING What To DO;"

4) What I do in my (non -diagnostic) psych. evals., is to give an IQ test, usually a

screening measure instead of a full scale, and then compare that with an Adaptive

Behavior Scale.

Assuming the results are valid and consistent with the history of impairments in major

life activities across settings (including the DSM IV TR symptoms, with age and gender

referencing if needed), the diagnostic hypothesis would then be that for someone with

"true (authentic)" ADHD, there should be a large discrepancy between the two scores

(i.e., meaning the IQ percentile rank should be higher than the Adaptive percentile

ranking);

5) IQ tests suffer from Poor Ecological Validity (taking a test in a quiet room with an

examiner, is NOT the same as being in a class room, on the job, driving a car, doing

chores, etc.), and Small Sample Size and;

6) Lastly, without meds, ADHD DOES lower IQ scores by approximately 7-9 / 10 points.

Hope that helps.


tc

mctavish23

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doing disorder? interesting

i have an IQ that is very high (not tootin my horn, i could care less)

i consider myself to have quite a bit of knowledge

but my ability to put my thoughts in words, especially written or typed words is equal to a caveman

is that a doing problem robert?
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  #19  
Old 06-24-12, 08:51 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveddd View Post
doing disorder? interesting

i have an IQ that is very high (not tootin my horn, i could care less)

i consider myself to have quite a bit of knowledge

but my ability to put my thoughts in words, especially written or typed words is equal to a caveman

is that a doing problem robert?
I have the exact same problem.

Writing posts that make sense is even hard for me even tho I can read and spell better than most people.

I know a lot about lots of different things but ask me to explain to or teach someone and it will seem like I dont have a clue.
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  #20  
Old 06-25-12, 02:54 AM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginniebean View Post
For myself, I like resolution, and that's often missing in these important dialogues. I do think it's important to go hard on these issues but eventually there does need to be some movement from both sides for it to truly be productive. Now, that is my opinion and perhaps a stylistic one, but I do think it does have greater impact when you challenge hard and then find some way to acknowledge just how multifaceted and complex some of these issues are. I guess I just think it makes for a better thread. Your mileage may vary.
Both sides do not always deserve to be treated as equals.
Some issues are multifaceted and complex. Other conclusions are well established, and still, some people will argue. Just saying that something is debatable, and then debating about it, does not make it a legitimate argument deserving of equal time and/or compromise.

But I see your point, and the concession need not be to give up a position but rather to change perspective. I completely agree with John, concerning the diagnostic criteria and the ability to provide a paper trail. From a logical, sequential, and rational analyzation of the facts, it's a legitimate position.
The problem in the other thread, was that John was arguing about one thing (the fact that a paper trail should be available and that controlled substances shouldn't just be handed out like aspirin for headaches - I don't think that headaches should be treated with aspirin if something else is causing the headache for example). On the other hand, the rest were arguing that, regardless of whether evidence is available (in the form of a paper trail), a proper diagnosis should still be an option.
I think we see a similar thing going on in politics, where the conservative position wants to require that voters have ID, actually exist, and only vote once... a completely rational position. The liberal position is that, if even one person who can legitimately vote, can't vote due to some new law, then the law is invalid (also completely rational, but two different arguments with different sets of supporting evidence). I think that it's a similar case. That's not to say that personal beliefs on any given issue determine political leaning; it is a generalization. I believe it a good example none the less.

So yeah, meeting halfway is often a condition of understanding what the other person is actually arguing for/against, rather than assuming that there is only one thing being argued and that the facts supporting that argument are self-evident. My suspicion is that John gets a sort of tunnel-vision/hyper-focus sort of thing going on when a discussion gets heated and is so stuck on the minor points of his argument that he fails to realize what they are arguing.

ugh.. It's not easy stating opposing political positions without breaking forum rules. I think I accomplished that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by plank80 View Post
Writing posts that make sense is even hard for me even tho I can read and spell better than most people.
I know a lot about lots of different things but ask me to explain to or teach someone and it will seem like I dont have a clue.
I think that I do a good job of writing posts that make sense? Problem is that it takes me forever and it also keeps me away from the things that I *should* be doing.
But then, I should be here helping others too... it's a balance.

Speaking of which “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving” ~Einstein
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  #21  
Old 06-25-12, 07:53 AM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Hello, there is one point I don't see here. Our brains are malleable. We can teach ourselves new ways to acquire knowledge. In a damaged brain, other parts of the brain attempt to fulfill the missing functions or so I recall from previous research.

Years ago, I did study topics related to ADD/HD but not much in the last several years.
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  #22  
Old 06-25-12, 07:56 AM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

How should neuroplasticity be addressed here?
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  #23  
Old 06-25-12, 09:17 AM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by MX2012 View Post
Hello, there is one point I don't see here. Our brains are malleable. We can teach ourselves new ways to acquire knowledge. In a damaged brain, other parts of the brain attempt to fulfill the missing functions or so I recall from previous research.

Years ago, I did study topics related to ADD/HD but not much in the last several years.
I wonder if this is why we tend to do things differently than other people. Because we are using different parts of our brains that have over developed to compensate for the parts that are not functioning properly?

Hope that makes sense,
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  #24  
Old 06-25-12, 10:46 AM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbacca View Post
Both sides do not always deserve to be treated as equals.
Some issues are multifaceted and complex. Other conclusions are well established, and still, some people will argue. Just saying that something is debatable, and then debating about it, does not make it a legitimate argument deserving of equal time and/or compromise.
In every post of John's the majority of it have been quotes from experts, I'll admit that John tends to be rigidity his interpretation of that research but in no manner can itbe said that the quality of his questions or material is somehow lacking merit for discussion.

Quote:

But I see your point, and the concession need not be to give up a position but rather to change perspective. I completely agree with John, concerning the diagnostic criteria and the ability to provide a paper trail. From a logical, sequential, and rational analyzation of the facts, it's a legitimate position.
The problem in the other thread, was that John was arguing about one thing (the fact that a paper trail should be available and that controlled substances shouldn't just be handed out like aspirin for headaches - I don't think that headaches should be treated with aspirin if something else is causing the headache for example). On the other hand, the rest were arguing that, regardless of whether evidence is available (in the form of a paper trail), a proper diagnosis should still be an option.
I think that was debated pretty well, and I saw something different than you did. Where you saw no argument akin to ideology, I saw symptoms, John has stated he has both ADHD and autism, rigidity is a symptom of both.

I guess what I also saw was a lot of "I don't like what you say so I don't like you therefore everything you say is wrong". I don't really want to moralizing about that but for myself I don't care to allow my feelings to colour an argument, at least not in that specific way. I may do so in other ways so I don't see myself as having any highermoral ground. Again, more of a personal preference thing.

Another thing, John, is most certainly not alone in his opinions and my guess is, having people hear these arguments is helpful. In the nits and bolts of everyday life, resolution is often not forthcoming, and being able to states cogent argument in the face of it will go farther, personally and for people with adhd as a whole if it is met with soundness rather than reaction.


But, like I said to John, your mileage may vary.

Speaking of which “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving” ~Einstein[/quote]
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  #25  
Old 06-25-12, 11:52 AM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

dave,

In a sense yes.

What you're referring to has to do with the Executive Function impairment that

interferes with the Internalization of Language and Verbal Fluency.

It's like if someone were to ask us about something we like, or have us write about it,

we'd probably have no problem with it.

However, describing what we did or trying to explain why we did it, usually leads to an

"I don't know " kind of answer.

So the same would likely apply to writing down your thoughts,etc.

Hope that helps.

tc

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  #26  
Old 06-25-12, 12:01 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by mctavish23 View Post
dave,

In a sense yes.

What you're referring to has to do with the Executive Function impairment that

interferes with the Internalization of Language and Verbal Fluency.

It's like if someone were to ask us about something we like, or have us write about it,

we'd probably have no problem with it.

However, describing what we did or trying to explain why we did it, usually leads to an

"I don't know " kind of answer.

So the same would likely apply to writing down your thoughts,etc.

Hope that helps.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)
Hm, maybe that's why I'm struggling so much with writing up experiments. I can write a pretty good literature review. The words just flow but when I have to describe what I've done and why I have done it, I just can't find the words to explain it in a way that makes sense to anyone else though I know what I've done and why.
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  #27  
Old 06-25-12, 12:14 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Good post as usual. Some discussion on a few selected points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbacca View Post

But I see your point, and the concession need not be to give up a position but rather to change perspective. I completely agree with John, concerning the diagnostic criteria and the ability to provide a paper trail. From a logical, sequential, and rational analyzation of the facts, it's a legitimate position.
I would have no problem with this but his position however was that they "must" have the paper trail not "should". He asserted that if they did not have this trail, they could *not* be diagnosed as ADHD. This he could not support although he did his best but clinical diagnosis simply doesn't work that way. I feel his stance was not a legitimate one nor one that I have seen anyone else assert or support. Sometimes you do not have all the data you need in an assessment and have to do the best you can with what you have. Should is reasonable but not must. That is where I feel most of the resistance to his argument originated.

Quote:
My suspicion is that John gets a sort of tunnel-vision/hyper-focus sort of thing going on when a discussion gets heated and is so stuck on the minor points of his argument that he fails to realize what they are arguing.
I suspect also that he gets into what one sees often with bright sophomore psych students: the Sophomore Syndrome. He gets some facts but has yet to gain the broader background to put it all in perspective with the other available data on the subject so tends to go off on a tangent that is really not supportable.

The old saw applies here, the more education you get the less you know. Absolute surety goes out the window with education. An old saying at least in psych, "As an undergraduate, you know everything, at the master's level you discover you really know little and with a PhD you find you know nothing at all".

John seems to have an overabundance of surety. He seems quite intelligent and really is a good researcher with a high degree of curiosity so I suspect this will pass in the fullness of time.

[quote]I think that I do a good job of writing posts that make sense? Problem is that it takes me forever and it also keeps me away from the things that I *should* be doing. But then, I should be here helping others too... it's a balance. [\quote] I agree with the quality of your posts. My posts often take an inordinate amount of time-sometimes as much as four or five hours on a single post. Lately, I have had to draw back somewhat due to this. I do not always have the time. This morning I am goofing off a little. I would rather do this than clean my office but alas I can put it off no longer. Perhaps I can find another reason to distract myself from my household duties. I find I am getting good at that in my old age.

Dizfriz

Last edited by Dizfriz; 06-25-12 at 12:33 PM..
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  #28  
Old 06-25-12, 01:13 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by mctavish23 View Post
dave,

In a sense yes.

What you're referring to has to do with the Executive Function impairment that

interferes with the Internalization of Language and Verbal Fluency.

It's like if someone were to ask us about something we like, or have us write about it,

we'd probably have no problem with it.

However, describing what we did or trying to explain why we did it, usually leads to an

"I don't know " kind of answer.

So the same would likely apply to writing down your thoughts,etc.

Hope that helps.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)
Yes thanks

If I am interested in something I can talk about it confidently.


But I still have trouble wording it in writing




And I often here the phrase "what do you know" from family because I say I don't know so often


I had a thread about how I hate being asked questions and didn't know why


Maybe that's why
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  #29  
Old 06-25-12, 02:15 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortune View Post
How should neuroplasticity be addressed here?
Every persons brain is capable of neuroplasticity.

What conditions hinder neuroplasticity and what conditions promote neuroplasticity is the way I understand neuroplasticity best.

There at least 50 different health issues that mimic ADHD.

ADHD can also mimic these 50 different health issues.

Meaning that ADHD can have similar signs (parts) of these health issues.

The similarities are found because of shared neurological components,

and the sensitive ADHDer.

Relieving the stresses caused by any one or more of these components,

ables the brain to change itself.

Age also is a big factor on the rate of neuroplasticity healing.

Neuroplasticity will not work if the brain is overstressed.


I really don't see general intelligence as any issue in regards to neuroplasticity healing.

The issue is more about unstressing the brain/body,

So that the brain can heal itself.

I have been exploring the idea of mindfulness recently.

Example: I can't put a hard candy in my mouth without chewing it.

No matter how much I tell myself not to.

If my attention get directed else where I will bite the candy.

Sometimes I can not last 10 secs without bitting the candy,

I have sucked a whole candy a few times so far to the end.

Once when I was not being affected so much by stress,

and another time just last night.

I was stressed last night.

So I decided to keep moving the candy around my mouth.

Anytime I stopped and focused on something else,

I nearly bite the candy.

But because I made my main job to keep moving the candy around my mouth.

My mind stayed mindful of the candy.

I sucked/moved the candy almost to the very end.


To me the goal of neuroplasticity is not to learn information and store it.

The goal is the idea of reducing stress and being mindfull of the.
of the issues unstressed.

Neuroplastic brain has a way for healing itself.

When I say healing itself in regards to ADHD.

I mean developing self regulation very slowly.

The rate of neuroplasticity healing is much more when we are young,

but some improvement is always possible.

Curing is not the goal,

Finding a lifestyle that relieves stress is.

I am not a professional but I am getting a little better with the concept.

The more I understand.

Figuring out what parts stress me and improving from there.
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Last edited by mildadhd; 06-25-12 at 02:34 PM..
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Old 06-25-12, 08:16 PM
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Re: ADHD and General Intelligence - the Biological Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by plank80 View Post
I wonder if this is why we tend to do things differently than other people. Because we are using different parts of our brains that have over developed to compensate for the parts that are not functioning properly?

Hope that makes sense,
I think you are on to something, but I don't think it's that cut and dry. All of the research I've looked at has found that when a brain does develop differently to compensate, it is still in a nearby region of the brain. I think to an extent our brains rewire but at a different level, we also find novel ways of completing the same tasks with different methods. If you think of the brain as a bunch of different muscles, we work different ones more in order to compensate. In this case, it isn't necessarily a biological difference between the ADHD and the NT, so much as we are forced to approach it differently. The NT could adapt in the same manner, but like all things, we tend to gravitate towards the most efficient method given what we have.

To some extent, it's just variation in thinking styles too. I have a terrible memory but I'm great at processing information that I already understand
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