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Old 05-29-18, 02:16 PM
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How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

Most mornings, I don't want to get up. Even if there's a so-called fun event planned for that day, I can't get my head wrapped around it. The thing will happen, then it will be life as usual. I go to bed with mild hope that I die overnight. I could never possibly take action to cause this, but I just can't see....


As a kid, I had few friends. Between my troubles focusing on things and eyesight issues, I could not see a ball flying past my face, or keep track of where all the other guys were on the football field. It wasn't so much that my inability made me not like it - it was more specific. THey didn't want me on the field, and sent me home. That wasn't devastating - I had no early childhood models that told me that I *should* have friends. I spent my time riding bike by myself and developing hobbies that didn't require anybody else.


College was a slog-fest. I did have friends, other geeks like me who had no interest in spectator anything. Made it out in six years with so-so grades. Had girlfriends then, seemed like i went a long time between them, but each got attached to me in one or another addictive way. Seemed hopeful - I'd had a social life and figured I'd "gotten it" finally. Also managed to escape college without too much student loan debt.



Out of college sucked. Job was boring, I got lots of talks from the boss about productivity and decision making. Other guys I worked with tried to mentor me, but I could not keep up with them, struggled to understand what the heck the conversation was about. Went 3 years with quite literally, zero friends. Lived in the US Deep South, and had a bad attitude about it, which didn't help with friends, either. Even though I didn't buy nice things, I somehow got into more debt...I think I tried to get out of boredom by going out to eat too often.



Met a girl, she hated the deep south as much as I did, we moved to the Rocky Mountains together. She seemed to have a grip on managing money. I got better at it. We had a crazy money arrangement, since she was older and higher income, she'd call the shots and I paid half...despite having less. My first five years of work there were bad, I got fired for incompetence/productivity on average every 18 months. I finally ended up in a company where I stuck it out five years until a government change pretty much decimated the company. That occurred just two months after I dumped the girl because I realized she was materialistic and only wanted me around to basically double her income. We'd had this weird arrangement where, since she was older, she called the money shots and I paid half, but since I had debt and lower income, that just meant I owed her more and more. Thankfully, she never put any of this in writing and I think it was all saber-rattling, because when I walked out, we just sold the house and done.



I was 35. I had about $40,000 in a retirement account, which was a bit less than a year's income at the time. I moved to an apartment and don't know how, but got in with a culture of lots of single moms and enjoyed a lot of attention. There was a bit of an ego boost there, but I was also aware that I was fishing from the low-income end of the pool and simply having a five year old car was enough to make me hot stuff. And, while I did get a fair amount of attention, I also got some pretty rough rebuffs, like the many women who would not date me because, even though I was taller than them, I still wasn't six feet tall and "men are supposed to be". I'm not a looker, that much I can't change.


But...jobs weren't to be had. What I'd learned to do in five years with one company was of no desire for any other company. I drained those $40k and ended up with nothing at age 40. I had, by then, tired of spending time with shallow people, and was actually spending time in the Jewish community, learning the traditions and appreciating some depth.


Just as my money ran out, a large company needed to hire a lot of people with backgrounds that overlapped mine. It was quite a pay cut from previous, but it was a job. I was 40. I had small debt. I had no girlfriend. I knew I had one last chance financially, to build something on which to retire. In that company, I once again experienced annual reviews that said I was inadequate, but since I was a "nice guy", they would move me to another function to see if I could survive. A temporary employee found me interesting, and her body was the type I liked (athletic, small-breasted, petite) and I found her fun, if not deep. Not particularly self-centered, and while this was not at the level of a romance, she was a tolerable roommate.



The company moved me to California in my young 40s. I left the girl behind, hoping for better depth, but it was not to be had in a mostly agricultural town. Fearing a life of loneliness, I agreed to marry her if she moved out to California. That was a Big Mistake. A few years into CAlifornia, she pulled away from me palpably. She denied it, but I could do little, as the job now had me on foreign travel and there simply wasn't any time. She put pressure on me to spend less - but I was hardly spending anytihng, being out of town. She clearly had money anxiety. Since I was spending a lot of time in hotel rooms, I studied markets and figured out how to make her a millionaire, hoping this would assuage her anxiety. I made her a millinoaire and her anxiety grew. I still got moved around int he company annually.


My skills at my job were random and it was only sheer luck that I was able to keep a job. One thing that showed up in the industry was computers, and no matter how many classes I took, I could not program...and that is now a fundamental requirement of the job. I lost my last job in 2014. I then tried to recover the marriage, and in 3 years of counseling,. came to realize she never really wanted to be married - she only did it becuase her CAtholic upbrinigng told her it was the only way for her to be "complete". But she hated it from day 1. She even proposed, at one point, that we could stay married if we had separate houses and saw each other maybe once a month. And had sex every five years, since that's as often as she desired.


I found out in the divorce process that the best way for a woman to get a man's money is to be lazy. She had worked until we got married, then stopped. Claimed to be looking for a job, but wasn't. The courts, when splitting our assets, said "she has no earning potential, so she gets most of it". So, I had made her a millionaire - and she still is, and I"m so far away it's not possible again. I can't work, don't have useful skills. I have a chunk of money in the bank, but it won't last until I can take Social Security at a high enough rate to sustain me.


But money would not be enough for these doldrums. As I look back, even though I preached the gospel of goal-setting, I never really had any for my life. I'd set goals for getting a project done, and 20% of the time it'd get done, always late of course. I feel I've lived with no intention. I have standards, but standards aren't objectives. Because I'm a slow learner, dreamy things like "become a good musician" seem impossible. I not only don't know how to practice, but when I've had teachers try to explain it, the process sounds like exactly the kind of thing I could take for 30 seconds before leaving the room screaming.


The divorce surprised me and made me sell the house. Because I so often didn't have friends, I'd had lots of hobbies, and collected a lot of stuff. Because I'm feeling financially poor, I feel the need to sell as much as I can, rather than remanding it to the landfill. There's an offer on the house, I am likely to have to be out in less than 30 days. I've been moving stuff out (mostly to disposal) for 45 days as I prepped the house for the mandated sale.



I have a girlfriend, she lets me stay at her place if I manage the house (two teens, bathrooms, kitchen, laundry, build whatever her next project is). I am not without expenses, I'm paying for storage (a very demeaning thought) for the stuff that I want to attempt to sell, and she expects me to participate in household bills. About all I"m off the hook for is mortgage. What she expects out of me seems normal, but I can't get it done in 40 hours a week and because I have to move out of my old place, I don't even have 40 hours a week. Nothing about "running the household" is in any way energizing. The girlfriend herself is intriguing, she's easily the "hottest babe" who ever paid attention to me. We bonded over music, we both were in an amateur band. She has continued to become better while I'm stagnant, and I'm in fear that she'll go seek a better band, since she needs one. She's an emotional extremist - when she shows love, it's amazing, but she turns on a dime and is angry and sobbing loudly with loads of tears. She says I manage her extremes better than "any other man", and she has had a LOT of men, despite being 15 years younger than me. She's got a few failed marriages too. Why am I here? When she's on good terms with me, it's like never before. And...honestly...now for the first time, I'm choosing to remain in a relationship partly due to money. I HATE that, I absolutely f*****g hate that.


She's got this place full of stuff. Good stuff. But nothing of mine will fit. I'm lucky to have enough desk space for my laptop, and five feet of closet space for clothing. Those projects I have to work on in order to stay here require the use of tools. I'm paying $250/month for storage for my tools. And it's an hour trip to/from to fetch the ones I need, and then to put them back. Not good! But I can't see another way.



So...no motivation. No goals. No income potential.

Where I am is where I'll be for the next 40 years.

No thanks.
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Old 05-29-18, 04:18 PM
LyrinMeow LyrinMeow is offline
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Re: How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

You may have said elsewhere but I missed it. What kind of doctors have you seen and what kind of therapy have you done and what/if any medication have you tried?
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Old 05-30-18, 04:14 AM
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Re: How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

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Originally Posted by LyrinMeow View Post
You may have said elsewhere but I missed it. What kind of doctors have you seen and what kind of therapy have you done and what/if any medication have you tried?

Age 35: When the Newsweek article showed up that first told the world that "hyperactivity" may very well NOT resolve itself in adulthood, and named it "ADD", I sought a diagnosis. Someone had told me about a doc who specialized in adult ADD, so I saw him. He put me through a bunch of Q&A, and computer testing and said "You have it really bad. It's amazing you ever got through college or ever held a job or even managed to get yourself to a job interview." I felt hopeful - there was a name for it, and he seemed to think there were things to get done.


He put me on Ritalin and inched up the dose, testing me for six weeks each time. He cautioned me to not look for a job yet, he had an easy way to do it. After a half year of what I thought was him getting a lot of money and me seeing nothing, I said why can't I look for a job now, and reminded him of his comment, and he claimed he never said it and that I had lots of personality issues that were not ADD and it would take two years of intense therapy to fix them. Since he was a psychiatrist, not a psychologist, he was not capable of doing the therapy and recommended me to a woman whose name I forget. I spent two months of every-week with her and she finally said 'there's nothing wrong with you, you just need to do self-work and you know exactly how to do that." So, six months and zilch.


Money forced a move, I ended up 20 miles away, found new providers. One of them switched me to Dexidrine, gave me a large-ish prescription and gave me rules for self-titrating. I found the level at which I felt euphoria, and somewhat less than that, I had bouts of what I felt were - suddenly being able to see. Alas, productivity wasn't enhanced much, I figure I had developed lifetime habits that worked against me.


Not long after, I got a job that just happened to measure my productivity almost by the minute. I was able to try with and without Dexidrine and was able to show myself that productivity improved 20% with Dex. It wasn't enough to stop the avalanche of "below expectation" reviews, but hey, it closed the gap. But didn't work much more than a year before it became hard to tell what it was doing. At the same time, I was seeing a counselor and we seemed to go all over the map of stuff - not just ADD, since there were ZERO ADD counselors in my city at that time, but again, after a few months, she said "you just need self-work and you know what to do" and let me go.


A few years later at age 40, my employer shipped me off to a smaller town in California. There were no ADD docs and California's rule at the time for Dexidrine were so onerous that I"d have had to drive 100 miles one-way each month to deal with the prescription. The heck with that. So I quit the Dex. From then to about five years later, the job was horrible, but I think the job was most of the problem. I forgot about it.


Moved to another state, due to employment, at age 45. Overwhelmed with then-wife's penchant for starting new projects that she couldn't finish, just like in California it felt like a war. Like an idiot, I did not divorce her, biggest mistake of my life.


My annual job changes continued, as my bosses tried to find a place where "I might succeed". I got a new boss and it was clear he was against me, and only then did I encounter a young kid on Adderall who claimed it helped his performance. I went on Adderall, found maybe a 10% improvement, spotty at best, but just like Dex, at the start it "seemed" hopeful even if it never did much.


One thing the Adderall did for me was to make me less tolerant of my then-wife's malarkey and I started pushing for changes and she called my prescriber and said "you have to take him off this stuff it's making him horrible and angry". The prescriber had a chat with her and decided she needed therapy and we both needed couples counseling so couples counseling ensued, and within months the counselor observed that we were not suited for each other so then divorce and 80% of my money taken by the courts. Before that date, my last firing, and now I've been blackballed by any possible local employer.


I've separately studied Judaism and Buddhism and tried Meditation but all of them remain academically interesting, but not fulfilling or helpful.


Probably more than you needed, but hopefully what you wanted is buried in that mish-mash of words.


WMM
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Old 05-30-18, 05:32 AM
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Re: How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

Well first, I'm not a doctor but it sounds like you may have some depression going on with your ADD. Which I've read is common. Just might be something to look into.

When I got on stimulants my anxiety decreased dramatically. As counter intuitive as that seems. There was a thread about using it for depression. Also, how much time did you give the higher (euphoria) Ritalin? I know when I first start a med I can get that but it regulates itself. It's possible to take too much but if the euphoria was a day or two you may have been able to handle more. Anyone, feel free to disagree. I could be wrong here. I just going off of my personal experience.

I was on 72mg Concerta(max dosage that most will give you). On this drug I had severe dry mouth and in the beginning I felt a little up. Heart racing. The random feelings of impending doom sucked but those went away. (Everyone sing the Doom Song! ) Switched to 20mg Adderall because of insurance. Felt nothing and I was having a really rough time. So I did what I always do, since the only thing that changed was the Adderall,and I just took 2 pills. Oh sweet cat butt, I felt human again. So that's my dosage now. Which is a tad above max. Like most of my meds. It would concern me if it was just with the Adderall but it's my bipolar meds as well. It could be you're med resistant. (Yes, I called my doctor to let her know about the switch the next day and she was fine with it.) My dosage is high not because my ADHD is bad but my resistance to meds is pretty high. (Next time the spell checker suggests "barbecue" for spelling because incorrectly I'm using it.)

I do not have euphoria at all. I have no signs of too high a dosage. I have no intention of going higher on this med. No problems sleeping. No anxiety. Opposite in fact.

Either way I would suggest finding a quality psychiatrist and therapist. I think some meds and actual therapy would do you some good. I think those things together could put a dent your symptoms. You may not bee 100% but I'm sure you can improve. Or if you don't feel up to that, or can't afford it, and are self motivated get a book on CBT. I'm reading one right now. Felling Good. Forget the author and I'm at work so I can't check. I believe it's an old book and some of it I can't stomach but overall it's good. There are also CBT workbooks out there I believe.

Also, try some exercise if you can. Lovely little endorphins.
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Old 06-01-18, 04:43 AM
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Re: How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

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One thing the Adderall did for me was to make me less tolerant of my then-wife's malarkey
Just wanted to say that I adore you for using the word malarky. I love that word and no one I know uses it. It seriously made me lol this morning!
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Old 06-01-18, 04:49 AM
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Re: How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

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Originally Posted by WheresMyMind View Post
I found out in the divorce process that the best way for a woman to get a man's money is to be lazy. She had worked until we got married, then stopped. Claimed to be looking for a job, but wasn't. The courts, when splitting our assets, said "she has no earning potential, so she gets most of it". So, I had made her a millionaire - and she still is, and I"m so far away it's not possible again. I can't work, don't have useful skills. I have a chunk of money in the bank, but it won't last until I can take Social Security at a high enough rate to sustain me.
Thats a shame that it went that way but I just wanted to point out that in a lot of cases a woman does have less earning potential and in a lot of cases the wife will work while the husband pursues his dreams or school and then decides to move on. Where does that leave her? I am just hypersensitve to hearing about how women want to take all they can from their ex's or that they act a certain way to gain financially. I would guess that its the exception rather than the rule. My ex stepfather was a secret drug addict, and my mom and he bought a house with the inheritance left to here by my grandma. Even though he got arrested and was showing up at her house thinking the government had people in the trees following him and harassed her on the phone and said he would hurt his son, my brother my mother still had to buy him out on the newly assessed value of the house for the divorce. They bought the house and land for about 250k and it reassessed at 500k and she had to take a new mortgage out to pay him off for half the value even though she paid outright for the house with my dead grandmother's money.
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Old 06-01-18, 02:27 PM
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Re: How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyrinMeow View Post
Well first, I'm not a doctor but it sounds like you may have some depression going on with your ADD. Which I've read is common. Just might be something to look into.

I always ask that question and am usually told "you have some, but far less than most people with ADHD". Nonetheless, I'm on 5-HTP, an amino acid that boosts seratonin in some people..it helps a bit.


But my issue really isn't about how sucky my life is today, but coming up with constant barriers to creating a future, given that I'm now set back about 25 years financially, and in five years, a whole lot of stuff will no longer be available to me, due to US laws.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyrinMeow View Post
When I got on stimulants my anxiety decreased dramatically. As counter intuitive as that seems.
Nothing counter-intuitive about it. It's predicted by all the ADHD literature.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyrinMeow View Post
There was a thread about using it for depression. Also, how much time did you give the higher (euphoria) Ritalin?

Never had euphoria on Ritalin. Never had any detectable effect at all on Ritalin. I experienced euphoria on Dexidrine at 10mg, and my doc said I would, and to keep using it at that level for a few days to see if the euphoria wore off. It did after the first dose. I ended up doing 5 and 7.5mg variously...at 10mg, after the initial onset, I did not experience euphoria, but I started getting physical jitters and productivity declined from the "20% at best" improvement that I got.


Adderall similar to Dex, but at higher doses. 10mg is barely detectable, 20mg seems to help, but again 20% at best, and also comes with slight gas and stomach upset. Never had euphoria on Adderall.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyrinMeow View Post
Either way I would suggest finding a quality psychiatrist and therapist. I think some meds and actual therapy would do you some good. I think those things together could put a dent your symptoms. You may not bee 100% but I'm sure you can improve. Or if you don't feel up to that, or can't afford it, and are self motivated get a book on CBT. I'm reading one right now. Felling Good. Forget the author and I'm at work so I can't check. I believe it's an old book and some of it I can't stomach but overall it's good. There are also CBT workbooks out there I believe.

Also, try some exercise if you can. Lovely little endorphins.

My body is in decline enough that exercising is painful, but I still try.


I've spent more time on therapists than anything else I've paid for over my lifetime. There have been some very good learnings, seems once every ten years. Maybe 1/4 come from therapists. With less life in front of me than ever before, I have to weigh just how useful that spending of time and money is. I'm hoping that by engaging in others with this disorder, I might learn things I won't get from a therapist who doesn't have it.


I do have an Adderall scrip and use it on occasion...but I am constantly confounded by not being able to create goals/objectives that seem to get me anywhere, even if I execute them to completion.


Things I could have done in my 40s...well, some things make no sense, when entering the 7th decade, because if something will reach fruition in 10 years...why bother.



WMM
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Old 06-01-18, 02:39 PM
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Re: How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

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Thats a shame that it went that way but I just wanted to point out that in a lot of cases a woman does have less earning potential and in a lot of cases the wife will work while the husband pursues his dreams or school and then decides to move on. Where does that leave her? I am just hypersensitve to hearing about how women want to take all they can from their ex's or that they act a certain way to gain financially. I would guess that its the exception rather than the rule. My ex stepfather was a secret drug addict, and my mom and he bought a house with the inheritance left to here by my grandma. Even though he got arrested and was showing up at her house thinking the government had people in the trees following him and harassed her on the phone and said he would hurt his son, my brother my mother still had to buy him out on the newly assessed value of the house for the divorce. They bought the house and land for about 250k and it reassessed at 500k and she had to take a new mortgage out to pay him off for half the value even though she paid outright for the house with my dead grandmother's money.

Indeed, women get all kinds of manipulation and abuse through marriage.


But the way to fix the problem is not to use a one-size-fits-all approach with applying a singular equation to all divorces.


Treating everybody in a class of people as if they're all the same demeans everybody in that class - and everybody outside that class.


I actually paid for her education, which she claimed she wanted in order to have higher earning potential, then she never applied for jobs despite claiming she would. And if you think she compensated by house-cleaning and such - nope, I did all that. She watched TV and fostered dogs and I got to live in a house that smelt of dog pee and poop.


We had no kids. No secrets, other than hers - that she never wanted to be married, but only did so due to a religious belief that it should complete her. According to the judge, what worked against me was mostly age...and no kids. Because of that, there would be no arguments in court.


Sorry for what happened to you. Should I be punished for things done to others that I didn't commit? Apparently.


I'm not blaming anybody but me...I chose to stay in it for too long. Looking at the past is useful as a means of evaluating my role in it...and I sure made bad decisions in situations where I pretty much knew were not in my best interest. Self-sacrifice garners no Earthly rewards.



I'm officially against marriage for the rest of my life. For me. I can't speak for anybody else.
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Old 06-01-18, 05:58 PM
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Re: How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

WheresMyMind

I would ask you to reread everything you wrote but before that, actually ask yourself when you got *this low*. (as in"when did I get this low)

one of the things that has helped me is to understand what linear phase memory is, that is, there is a lot of information you have written about up there, but the act of reading what you have written, writing with pen and paper and self talk (or with a friend/therapist) are linear phase, in a sense, that means that we establish ourselves through our own words.

whenever I hear anyone say something like what you asked, there is typically (not going to say all the time, but from I've come to understand, a lot of the time) there is a specific point in time that we felt low (whether that be from other's projecting on to us or something else). that feeling can haunt us until we linear phase and put all the pieces together, sometimes that is a process all of it's own and the knowledge we gain can't really be well explained until after we have done so.

that's a lot like anything we do. I can't explain calc to anyone right now because I haven't taken the class. however, once I do, I can. same thing.
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Old 06-14-18, 04:47 PM
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Re: How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

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Originally Posted by Drogheda View Post
WheresMyMind

I would ask you to reread everything you wrote but before that, actually ask yourself when you got *this low*. (as in"when did I get this low)

one of the things that has helped me is to understand what linear phase memory is, that is, there is a lot of information you have written about up there, but the act of reading what you have written, writing with pen and paper and self talk (or with a friend/therapist) are linear phase, in a sense, that means that we establish ourselves through our own words.

whenever I hear anyone say something like what you asked, there is typically (not going to say all the time, but from I've come to understand, a lot of the time) there is a specific point in time that we felt low (whether that be from other's projecting on to us or something else). that feeling can haunt us until we linear phase and put all the pieces together, sometimes that is a process all of it's own and the knowledge we gain can't really be well explained until after we have done so.

that's a lot like anything we do. I can't explain calc to anyone right now because I haven't taken the class. however, once I do, I can. same thing.

Having read and re-read what you wrote, I don't get what "linear phase thinking" is, other than simply reviewing events in life.


Life is complicated and at my age, remembering what happened, when it happened, and the results, are pretty difficult, and made worse with ADHD.


I've been low, I've been lower, I've had brief spells of "High".



As a former member of the press, I tend to use the words "what, where, when, how and why" interchangeably, because any situation where one is useful, so are all the others.


My overall sense is that I struggled with the ADHD, and did a mix of attempting to compensate for it (knowing that I could only compensate a little bit) and attempting to find things to do with my time/life (which are the same thing) that don't require a full amelioration of the symptoms. I found VERY few things at which I was able to maintain - that is, work without getting fired - and I found socializing difficult, even if highly desirable. For the past 20 year, I thought I was somewhere that would lead to a place where I'd have more choice...specifically because I'd have a large enough nest egg to choose to work or not, without feeling my survival was dependent on work. And it went away. It was the right choice to send 70% of my net worth away, to get an increasingly negative person out of my life.


But it has left me here. Old enough that employers don't want me. Outdated in the one field at which I gained some competence...albeit slowly, by age 50, I had the competence of the average 35-year-old in the field, and now the field has passed me by. Gaining education in that field, by the estimate of college department heads, would take me 6-8 years, and at THAT age, employers have little use. It's not that they're against old folks - but employment is a culture. If the majority of people who are good at a job are 30 to 45 years old, then the jobs are aimed at them, with expectations that the employee will be around a long time. For someone nearing 70, the employers are hardly willing to wait for the person to learn on the job. This is not age discrimination....employers are within their legal rights to determine if a person of any age/ability can do a job, and if the job requires that the person is up to speed in a week, and my skills are 20 years out of date - it's not age discrimination to bypass me.


Depression and low energy are coupled with feelings of claustrophobia in most people. The feeling that here I am, in a place I don't like, and I have almost no tools to change it. And, throughout my adult life, I've always felt some claustrophobia because no matter where I am - I can't get away from me. I love the parts of myself I've been able to build...my engagement with teams when I'm on them, my incredible patience although it's caused me some of my greater difficulties, my willingness to help others. All skills that require being immersed with other people...something I was only able to do while being employed. But other aspects of me, including an inability to manage tasks (time is unmanageable), and in particular, to put time into things I know I want to be able to do but don't know how yet (like becoming a better musician)...just don't happen.


I'm living with a girlfriend who loves how I simplify her life. I clean up after her and the two teens and run the household. I'm not serving society, I am merely enabling three people and it's menial work. I have read that one tends to feel fulfilled when working on longer-term objectives, and when one feels that what they spend their time on capitalizes on their best assets. What I'm doing now is neither.


40 more years of this?


Ugh.


WMM
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Old 06-14-18, 05:41 PM
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Re: How did I get this low? How to deal with it?

Yikes, sorry to hear you've been through all of that! There's not really much more I can say than that.
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