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Relationships & Social Issues This forum is for adults with AD/HD to discuss how AD/HD affects personal relationships.

View Poll Results: Have you been in an NPD/ADD binary relationship?
Yes...it is reoccuring 15 48.39%
Yes...it happened once 6 19.35%
No...But ADD family members have 1 3.23%
Never 9 29.03%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 05-18-05, 11:56 AM
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NPD (Narcissist)/ ADD Binary relationship

I am curious if you have been in a relationship like described here:

http://www.contextualmind.org/wiki/i...y_Relationship

I now know of 6 people in my life (not including myself) that were in this binary relationship.

My wife displayed tendancies that were borderline/Narcissistic Personality Disorder and her father was clearly NPD. Her mother shows signs of Asperger's (This binary relationship is probably common for people who are Asperger's as well).

1. On the intimate realm: These would be people who "callously"* took "your heart"* then came back for more if you did not ignore them. (I ignored my wifes attempts as I had grown too strong).

2. On the friendship realm: These would be people that stroked your ego then pulled you "under their wing" in order to "help you find your way". They withdraw when adoration or attention is not forthcoming.

*(Quotes here because in the end... we are not victims but are responsible for our relationship choices...even if it seems like we were lured in)

In the binary system you end up feeling like you lost yourself (i.e. your self).

NPD has fragile or nearly non-existant self
ADD has fraglile or nearly non-existant ego

NPD has expansive ego
ADD has expansive self

It is a matter/ anti-matter collision that, in a sense only benefits* the NPD side (Ego is fools gold compared to the real gold of self). This is very exciting and fulfilling for the ADD person at first... they feel they have a stronger ego as they head into the "trap".

* There is really no benefit for the NPD individual in the end...just survival

Understand that I am not making a judgement on people who are NPD. I just think the ADD/NPD binary system is dangerous to ADD people.

Last edited by chain; 05-18-05 at 12:14 PM..
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Old 05-18-05, 02:04 PM
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This came to a head for me this year with my youngest brother. It was violent in tone and continues to concern me. There are likely more examples in my life, but I'm not able to confront that just yet.

I've lots to learn.
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Old 05-18-05, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
There are likely more examples in my life, but I'm not able to confront that just yet.

I've lots to learn.
Me too...it really scares me because it is becoming more and more clear that NPD has a high rate of genetic transfer and ADD is completly genetic (in the form that I am talking about). It means that there could be a lot of very strange family situations because of this dynamic....

There also seems to be a type that is not quite full NPD but cycles through the NPD...it might be described as borderline... very tricky stuff

I have been taking stock.. my father was a very clear cerebral narcissist and my mother is (hidden) ADD. (She got pulled through the psychiatric system in the early 60's for hysteria... (yeah... what happens when the only people who doctors think are ADD are little white boys..the culture is so stupid ) My mom, a wonderful and strong soul has come to terms with it. But she is agoraphobic and dependant on my stepfather (another hidden add type his sister shows signs of NPD and his father did too...his mother was ADD (A bright light in my life)...interesting... his sister looks old for her age and he looks young. He has two sons that show signs of NPD and one that shows signs of ADD)

I think we are staring at a very powerful dynamic here

I think...that that if these models are correct... there may be a way to help people who are NPD... but it is very difficult. Don't ever think you can change one...it is like ADD in that sense. Can't truly change us...just make us aware and give us a path to healing.

Time will tell... we are way overdue for a paradigm shift in cognitive theory.

*Interesting story...one of the ways women seem to show narcissism is through "hypochondrea" or Muenchhuasen (my father's mother). My grandmother was in the the hospital next to my mother and that is how my parents met... gives you some context into why I think there needs to be shifts in thinking )
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Old 05-28-05, 09:09 AM
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You have touched on a few familiar things.

It is said that neurotics build castles in the sky and psychotics live in them.
Even though that statement is usually made with some humor in mind, it has some truth to it. This is a potentially destructive form of co-dependency. It could really be that simple.

Co-dependency is to be avoided at all costs.

It could also be that someone has fallen victim to a psychological predator (sociopath, psycopath, user-abuser, etc..) It is easy to end up in such a situation since these types don't advertise and they usually apper to be a "nice person".


Would a psycopath be totally IRCM, and a sociopath be totally ERCM ?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by chain
I am curious if you have been in a relationship like described here:

http://www.contextualmind.org/wiki/i...y_Relationship

I now know of 6 people in my life (not including myself) that were in this binary relationship.

My wife displayed tendancies that were borderline/Narcissistic Personality Disorder and her father was clearly NPD. Her mother shows signs of Asperger's (This binary relationship is probably common for people who are Asperger's as well).

1. On the intimate realm: These would be people who "callously"* took "your heart"* then came back for more if you did not ignore them. (I ignored my wifes attempts as I had grown too strong).

2. On the friendship realm: These would be people that stroked your ego then pulled you "under their wing" in order to "help you find your way". They withdraw when adoration or attention is not forthcoming.

*(Quotes here because in the end... we are not victims but are responsible for our relationship choices...even if it seems like we were lured in)

In the binary system you end up feeling like you lost yourself (i.e. your self).

NPD has fragile or nearly non-existant self
ADD has fraglile or nearly non-existant ego

NPD has expansive ego
ADD has expansive self

It is a matter/ anti-matter collision that, in a sense only benefits* the NPD side (Ego is fools gold compared to the real gold of self). This is very exciting and fulfilling for the ADD person at first... they feel they have a stronger ego as they head into the "trap".

* There is really no benefit for the NPD individual in the end...just survival

Understand that I am not making a judgement on people who are NPD. I just think the ADD/NPD binary system is dangerous to ADD people.
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  #5  
Old 05-28-05, 03:54 PM
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Well... In my models IRCM (and ERCM) would be the neurotics (ADD and Asperger's with fragile Ego structure... as I define "Ego" and the Psychotics would be NPD types ER+ with HM to CM on the scale (With fragile self...as I define self).

Ego is display for the purpose of being a group member.
Self is context of the individual in its immediate environment.

1. HM+ is sociopath. IRHM+ is probably the most dangerous type... loan killer (Asperger's could have this as a very minute percentage... as well as some of the "switches")

2. ERHM+ can be created through very violent and abusive upbringing

ER+CM would be a cerebral narcissist and ER+HM Would be somatic. ER+HM is highly dangerous and would show psychotic rage without remorse.

ER+HM can be created through abusive upbringing and neglect. ER+CM is much more proficiant at finding supply and can form long-term bonds.

The IRCM types typically are involved with ER+CM.



In a sense AD/HD is IR+ but I don't like the confusion that creates. Asperger's is IR to IR+

ERCM is borderline IRCM with a very well defined ego but vast open areas of context.
This group is often seen as odd but they can actually join groups and stifle questioning. They tend to have choice in that and have high cultural creative potential (cultural art, design, pop music, political satire, architects, technology innovators)
They usualy have a high degree of social anxiety. 1 parent is typically IRCM

To add to the confusion... there are switches.

Bi-polar is ERHM switch to and from IRCM (Full CM forces IR)
Borderline is ER to ER+

There are other switches but I have yet to identify them with "disorders".

2 caveats here:

1. This is theory (I am shocked at how descriptive and predictive it is becoming... but it is not scientific... yet)
2. With ADD we tend to become what we focus on... if you question if you are NPD/ER+ than you are not...they cannot question that... unless it benefits them (Ego damage is catastrophic in that type)
3. I am purposefully cutting out "nurture"...these are genetic types with functionalities that are related to patterns that have existed throughout biology. Nurture is a high factor in development in ER

4 main types based on techique for survival:

1. Solitary Prey (No... not victims )
2. Herd Animals
3. Solitary Hunters (Sharks, Feral Cats)
4. Opportunists (Parasites, Pets and scavengers)

Switches add new types of survival techniques based on cooperation

1. Herd/Hunters
2. Herd/Solitary Prey


2 main functionalities in survival of individuals

1. Context of surroundings (threats/food sources) "CM"
2. Motility (to "Food" or away from threats) "HM"

and one thing to tie them together

Awarness

It is my simple assertion that we (Humans) are very similar to every living thing on this planet and the core patterns are simple and repeat throughout.



Culture is a vast illusion that is a survival technique...

So far off topic now... sigh
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  #6  
Old 05-30-05, 09:03 AM
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Just my thought, sorry if i am offending some folks here but i have to speak out.

Some People when they learn they ADD/ADHD become obsess with that ADD and i think it's not healthy.
When i meet people i dont give a damn about what they have or what they do, as long as i have a connection with them fine, if not next.

I could not tell you if they had add or ect ect ect. I will certainly not stay away from someone because lets say i he is adhd or a prison past(unlesss its for a serious crime like murder ect, it»,s just an exemple anywyas lol not the best one but you get my drift ) .

I do have ADHD but i am not different then when i was before knowing this. I am even more lucky now cause i know i am not alone or just simply nuts. Great, but did it change my life absolutly not. I still have to get up every morning and be the best i can be that day. With all my strengh and false, knowing that i have ADHD does not make a difference in my struggles.

From what i have been hearing when you talk about having ADD/ADHD to other people, they think you are making excuses for your down fall.....so why put energy into something that i still dont understand myself to people who dont really care and just wnat you to smart up.

I dont hide my ADHD, i dont think i could anyways, but i certainly dont talk with some people or avoid other cause i see they are ADD or biolar, i still follow my instincs when it comes to human beings...

HOpe all this make sense, i have a hard time explaining sometimes
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Old 05-30-05, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitl
Just my thought, sorry if i am offending some folks here but i have to speak out.

Some People when they learn they ADD/ADHD become obsess with that ADD and i think it's not healthy.
When i meet people i dont give a damn about what they have or what they do, as long as i have a connection with them fine, if not next.

I could not tell you if they had add or ect ect ect. I will certainly not stay away from someone because lets say i he is adhd or a prison past(unlesss its for a serious crime like murder ect, it»,s just an exemple anywyas lol not the best one but you get my drift ) .

I do have ADHD but i am not different then when i was before knowing this. I am even more lucky now cause i know i am not alone or just simply nuts. Great, but did it change my life absolutly not. I still have to get up every morning and be the best i can be that day. With all my strengh and false, knowing that i have ADHD does not make a difference in my struggles.

From what i have been hearing when you talk about having ADD/ADHD to other people, they think you are making excuses for your down fall.....so why put energy into something that i still dont understand myself to people who dont really care and just wnat you to smart up.

I dont hide my ADHD, i dont think i could anyways, but i certainly dont talk with some people or avoid other cause i see they are ADD or biolar, i still follow my instincs when it comes to human beings...

HOpe all this make sense, i have a hard time explaining sometimes
That makes complete sense

Personally I am hyperfocused on cognitive theory through ADD. I am very hyperfocused on it and I really can't stop it so I am trying to write a book with the hyperfocus. I think using ADD as an excuse is not helpful... in fact any time you cannot take responsibility for yourself... regardless... it is not good.

My thing really is trying to view ADD not as a disease but a type of thinking that benefits humanity. Now, I did begin by thinking of it as a disorder but now I don't. (I was dx'd in 4th grade... 1976 or so)

With this type of thinking we are forced to build our world view...other people or culture do not do it for us. Most people are not forced.

In this thread I am talking about a dangerous pattern between ADD and NPD that can be really harmful. I think that ADD people still need to take responsibility if they get in such a relationship... but it is nice to be warned that this is a common pattern.

In the end... I am almost embarrased by this intense hyper focus... I honestly wish it would stop... but It will not until I write it all out. And you guys get at least some interesting ideas to chew on... not such a bad thing for bored ADDers.

So, Lise.. have you had a relationship with the kind of person that you feel drains you... "breaks your heart" and then you go into relationship hermiting?

If so... It is common... take your responsibility... love yourself, watch out for this type and find love with another kind of person/people that will be fulfilling for you.

That is what I am trying to say
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Old 06-06-05, 08:53 PM
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I personally don't view any of the developmental defenses (i.e. personality disorders- a label which I absolutely HATE, and is concocted by some people (Geez.. the DSM-4 would go out of business, if it couldn't keep adding those...) to further enable society to ostracize others, without truly understanding their needs, and why they shaped into whom they 'are'...) as any hinderance that isn't solved by patience and communication.

Narcissism, in my opinion, is not something to fear, nor does it give permission to jump on the wagon of 'narcissist haters'.

It is developed as a protective device, as most developmental stages do, when other's don't 'understand' what you're trying to convey to them, and don't offer stable advice, when you're young, and have no ability to really stand up for yourself, or 'figure' out how things work, in this world.

There is one 'guru' that has monopolized the internet, in his negative view of narcissism, and if you've ever tried to research it, all you find are 'his opinions', which to me is ironic, because it conveys narcissism, in that it is all about his need for attention. And trust me when I tell you that I let him have it!!!

Developmental defenses are about trying to be understood, and trying to trust others, to love and be loved and accepted, when you've been given false security, at a younger age, by those who are 'supposed' to guide, protect, and love you, unconditionally, but aren't able to do so, themselves.

No one behaves the way they do without reason.

If it's not good enough for you, or anyone, it's because you haven't taken the time to research quality material on the subject, and have decided to judge others, due to personal circumstances, in your life. But if you ask me...you still want someone to understand you... in all your glory, don't you?
( I use the term 'you' as a general noun, not as a personal attack upon anyone here, but I meant what I said about that idiot who keeps posting his material on narcissism to market his one and only book out right now)

And in my opinion...you can't pick and choose, which of the developmental defenses, you will show empathy towards, and which ones you will disregard as 'deliberate and maliscious'...

It doesn't work that way..you either have empathy for all of them, and actually do quality research on the subject, or classify yourself in the ignorant subcategory of a 'hatemonger' and refuse to understand, be compassionate towards, and hate everyone who exhibits traits of those defense mechanisms, that you don't understand, but may perplex, or confuse you.

I believe those groups have white sheets, that can be sewn into 'cloaks' for anyone's physical frame, for the small (and small minded) price of a contributing to the group's bonfire activities....

Just in case you haven't noticed....if you do keep talking about a certain subject...which has to do with your needs, it is a form of 'self obsession'..and a form of narcissism...which I, and many incredibly talented, considerate, selfless, creative, and warm, compassionate people on here, are prone to do...

Which go hand in hand with those absolutely wonderful traits of:

Having someone you absolutely trusted and loved leave you and never come back, no matter how much you claim to behave, and or someone disregarding your emotional states as to 'be ridiculous' at the time you voice them -borderline (which, once again, I am admitting to be 'me')

bipolar- I'm going to leave this to those who are more qualified to state their opinion on the subject, since I refuse to do what most 'experts' do, and speak for them.

Not being perfect enough, in what you do, and having to do better, because someone tells you that you 'can and should' do better -obsessive-compulsive

Being punished excessively, for something, that doesn't warrant it -anxious (me..me.. pick me, lol!)

Not being able to find a solution fast enough in coping with problems/situation, or NOT being able to voice your thoughts on a situation, and get appropriate feedback (moi, auci) -depressive

Not being able to sit through any event for more than twenty minutes (that's being generous. Interrupting, because you can't contain all those wonderful ideas you have in your mind at all times -hyper

Being put in a position of taking 'sides' between two people, whom you love equally, and don't want to do so, but HAVE to -Flighty

NO ONE listening to you, constant physical abuse perpetuated upon you, mixed messages in that you are 'responsible enough to take care of siblings/adult parent, but irresponsible due to minor status -defiant (me, sadly enough)

Being self sufficient, enjoying your own company, and finding creative outlets at times, by yourself, that are more rewarding than attending functions with others, who are not on your creative, or intellectual level -The experts call this 'anti-social' but I'm going to go with my perception of 'fluctuating social interaction'.
Having someone who was overly protective, that didn't allow you to learn most 'life skills' because they either enjoyed their role in taking care of you to an extreme, and didn't want you 'leaving them', and also, being abused physically/verbally/sexually, and 'understanding' when someone does it again, to you in the future. (me..me...smiley, ol' me :0) ) -dependant

Please...if anyone has anything to contribute..it would work so much better if you did so...

Otherwise.. we're going to end up with more negative feedback, and negative allegations.. of what 'shapes us' and who we 'are' in a nutshell.

I never define anything that I have been, or are working on becoming, to ever fit in a nut shell....There couldn't possibly be one big enough...

Let alone one paragraph

-of some 'world accepted manual'

-with it's expert definition/opinion of:

Me...or you...

Nova
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Old 06-06-05, 09:48 PM
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By the way, my opinion, is just that!!

Mine...

It doesn't take precedence of your 'heart and soul', nor your doctor's opinion, as to what's best for 'you'...

It's just me, being 'me'...as usual..
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Old 09-03-06, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova
I personally don't view any of the developmental defenses (i.e. personality disorders- a label which I absolutely HATE, and is concocted by some people (Geez.. the DSM-4 would go out of business, if it couldn't keep adding those...) to further enable society to ostracize others, without truly understanding their needs, and why they shaped into whom they 'are'...) as any hinderance that isn't solved by patience and communication.

Narcissism, in my opinion, is not something to fear, nor does it give permission to jump on the wagon of 'narcissist haters'.

It is developed as a protective device, as most developmental stages do, when other's don't 'understand' what you're trying to convey to them, and don't offer stable advice, when you're young, and have no ability to really stand up for yourself, or 'figure' out how things work, in this world.

There is one 'guru' that has monopolized the internet, in his negative view of narcissism, and if you've ever tried to research it, all you find are 'his opinions', which to me is ironic, because it conveys narcissism, in that it is all about his need for attention. And trust me when I tell you that I let him have it!!!

Developmental defenses are about trying to be understood, and trying to trust others, to love and be loved and accepted, when you've been given false security, at a younger age, by those who are 'supposed' to guide, protect, and love you, unconditionally, but aren't able to do so, themselves.

No one behaves the way they do without reason.

If it's not good enough for you, or anyone, it's because you haven't taken the time to research quality material on the subject, and have decided to judge others, due to personal circumstances, in your life. But if you ask me...you still want someone to understand you... in all your glory, don't you?
( I use the term 'you' as a general noun, not as a personal attack upon anyone here, but I meant what I said about that idiot who keeps posting his material on narcissism to market his one and only book out right now)

And in my opinion...you can't pick and choose, which of the developmental defenses, you will show empathy towards, and which ones you will disregard as 'deliberate and maliscious'...

It doesn't work that way..you either have empathy for all of them, and actually do quality research on the subject, or classify yourself in the ignorant subcategory of a 'hatemonger' and refuse to understand, be compassionate towards, and hate everyone who exhibits traits of those defense mechanisms, that you don't understand, but may perplex, or confuse you.

I believe those groups have white sheets, that can be sewn into 'cloaks' for anyone's physical frame, for the small (and small minded) price of a contributing to the group's bonfire activities....

Just in case you haven't noticed....if you do keep talking about a certain subject...which has to do with your needs, it is a form of 'self obsession'..and a form of narcissism...which I, and many incredibly talented, considerate, selfless, creative, and warm, compassionate people on here, are prone to do...

Which go hand in hand with those absolutely wonderful traits of:

Having someone you absolutely trusted and loved leave you and never come back, no matter how much you claim to behave, and or someone disregarding your emotional states as to 'be ridiculous' at the time you voice them -borderline (which, once again, I am admitting to be 'me')

bipolar- I'm going to leave this to those who are more qualified to state their opinion on the subject, since I refuse to do what most 'experts' do, and speak for them.

Not being perfect enough, in what you do, and having to do better, because someone tells you that you 'can and should' do better -obsessive-compulsive

Being punished excessively, for something, that doesn't warrant it -anxious (me..me.. pick me, lol!)

Not being able to find a solution fast enough in coping with problems/situation, or NOT being able to voice your thoughts on a situation, and get appropriate feedback (moi, auci) -depressive

Not being able to sit through any event for more than twenty minutes (that's being generous. Interrupting, because you can't contain all those wonderful ideas you have in your mind at all times -hyper

Being put in a position of taking 'sides' between two people, whom you love equally, and don't want to do so, but HAVE to -Flighty

NO ONE listening to you, constant physical abuse perpetuated upon you, mixed messages in that you are 'responsible enough to take care of siblings/adult parent, but irresponsible due to minor status -defiant (me, sadly enough)

Being self sufficient, enjoying your own company, and finding creative outlets at times, by yourself, that are more rewarding than attending functions with others, who are not on your creative, or intellectual level -The experts call this 'anti-social' but I'm going to go with my perception of 'fluctuating social interaction'.
Having someone who was overly protective, that didn't allow you to learn most 'life skills' because they either enjoyed their role in taking care of you to an extreme, and didn't want you 'leaving them', and also, being abused physically/verbally/sexually, and 'understanding' when someone does it again, to you in the future. (me..me...smiley, ol' me :0) ) -dependant

Please...if anyone has anything to contribute..it would work so much better if you did so...

Otherwise.. we're going to end up with more negative feedback, and negative allegations.. of what 'shapes us' and who we 'are' in a nutshell.

I never define anything that I have been, or are working on becoming, to ever fit in a nut shell....There couldn't possibly be one big enough...

Let alone one paragraph

-of some 'world accepted manual'

-with it's expert definition/opinion of:

Me...or you...

Nova
As a recently accused person of having NPD, thank you for the best opinion I have read here. I think we all have a little of every personality disorder. This one devastated me though. All I read basically stated "99% of the time no cure" and if you are involved with a NPD just "run."
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Old 09-05-06, 12:23 AM
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Labels, in their entirety, cause grief for anyone who is diagnosed with any, or several PD's.

Like a branded 'Scarlet A', on someone's forehead, which never has time to heal properly.

No one is fallible, and no diagnosis of one PD is 'better' than another.
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Old 09-05-06, 03:17 PM
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In any event, while unpopular, having a PD is in some ways preferable to having a neurobiological disorder since the PD is theoretically curable and neurobiological disorders are not...


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Old 09-05-06, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedo
In any event, while unpopular, having a PD is in some ways preferable to having a neurobiological disorder since the PD is theoretically curable and neurobiological disorders are not...


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On the other foot, PDs are only responsive to large amounts of therapy.

I wish Chain still posted so I could ask him more about this issue....
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Old 09-05-06, 05:03 PM
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I agree with Nova here. I read up on NPD and it seems a lot of people could have it.

What is so wrong in being confident in yourself and being happy with your achevements?

What if others are really jealous of you? Shouldn't we love ourselves and be interested in all the great things we can do?

If that is a disorder, than it is BS!!!
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Old 09-05-06, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KFabulous
I agree with Nova here. I read up on NPD and it seems a lot of people could have it.

What is so wrong in being confident in yourself and being happy with your achevements?

What if others are really jealous of you? Shouldn't we love ourselves and be interested in all the great things we can do?

If that is a disorder, than it is BS!!!
Well, I'm sure no one would be diagnosed with NPD just because they were being confident in themselves and happy with their achievements. It's much more serious than that, but I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about it.

I do agree with Nova however that it's wrong to single out people who have this or similar disorders and blacken them like they're just evil.
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