Should there be consequences?

[litlcntrygrl]

I understand that forgetfulness is a symptom of ADHD and that there's little anyone can do to make it go away. Something I have been struggling with, though, is should there be consequences (maybe not as harsh as those for a "normal" child) for forgetting to bring home text books, misplacing papers at school, etc...? Or is it just something that should be dismissed as part of his disability?

I feel like I should do *something* about it, I just don't know what.

[trishcan]

In situations like you describe, I would think there would be natural consequences for the forgetfulness. If you forget to bring books and papers home, you don't get your homework done and you receive a poor grade. If you misplace a game, you don't get to play it until you find it, etc.

In my opinion, if would be more helpful to be pro-active in preventing these things from happening. I don't know how old of a child you are referring to, but some kids might repsond well to a sort of "checklist" with several items that should be taken home (homework folder, permission slips, books). An older child could keep it in a locker or other obvious place where it would be difficult to ignore. A younger child could probably have a teacher or aide remind him or her to make sure all the important items were in their backpack before leaving. You could even offer some sort of small reward or positive reinforcement for remembering all/most items.

It doesn't seem helpful to dismiss these types of behaviors as "part of the disorder" because it doesn't help the child develop the skills required to handle situations independently. Allow natural consequences to take place and avoid making excuses or extra trips back to school when something is forgotten, even if your instinct is to "protect" the child from having to fail an assignment or not participate in an activity because he or she forgot to have you fill out the permission slip.

Real-world consequences are much more powerful for children than artificial ones, like "no video games," early bedtimes, extra chores. Made-up consequences don't show children why their forgetful behavior is unacceptable, just that they are being punished.

[QueensU_girl]

re: the forgetting problem.

It is part of working memory, which is part of 'executive function'.

I would highly suggest ALL ADDers and their parents and teachers read up on "executive function" (the brain's manager) and the part of it (inc. working memory).

Giving "consequences' or punishment, for an impaired skill such as "auditory working memory" (remembmering what we heard), just doesn't work.

(Punishment for a memory disorder is likely to just cause depression/withdrawal or anxiety or incredible humiliation and frustration in an ADDer. ADD acts as a sort of mild brain injury in this regard. It is cruel to punish such a condition, IMNSHO. It shuts down the ability to learn too, b/c the frontal cortex gets hijacked by the 'reptilian brain' (midbrain/emotional brain/frustration centres).)

Enough of us have been down that road as children with mean teachers, etc. and still have the comorbid problems into adulthood (anxiety, depression, withdrawal on life, anger, shame, giving up, some PTSD) to show for it.

1. http://www.schoolbehavior.com/conditions_edf.htm

2. http://www.chrisdendy.com/executive.htm

3. http://www.chrisdendy.com/keyfacts.htm

4. http://www.adda-sr.org/reading/Artic...e_function.htm


Dr. Mel Levine says to "strengthen the strengths". He has some great books and DVDs and I really recommend them. Dr. Larry Silver has a good book or two out too. He says "LDs (ADD incl) are not just learning disabilities, they are life disabilities". They can affect many domains of life, not just schooling.
~Emma

[Driver]

It's important to make sure you know what you're dealing with. Are you dealing with apathy or forgetfulness? Is your child forgetting to bring home their books, or that they simply don't care and wish to avoid doing homework?

If the child is genuinly forgetful, then punishment is simply going to cause stress and anxiety for the child: punishing kids for things beyond their ability or control is harmful.

On the other hand, it's important to put in place strong structures and boundaries for the child. Work with the child's school to make sure books are remembered. Establish a routine. Or perhaps even look at asking for a second set of textbooks to keep at home.

[mctavish23]

Research supports modifications to provide prompts & reminders within both home &

school environments; with a rewards first protocol that gradually "shapes ( builds) on the

desired behavior.

Consequences are not necessarily "punishments", as they're designed to help learn,via

a "natural & logical" basis (i.e.,"You spilled it, you clean it up").

There's also the understanding that rewards are still available.

Punishments are designed to instill fear/pain and are based in part, on avoidance of

more pain,etc.

(It's obviously more complicated than that, as each situation may vary).

No matter how you approach behavior management, the ADHD individual needs MORE

consequences & accountability, to "shape" learning.

Even more important, is the knowledge that all feedback must be IMMEDIATE.

This is an excellent question for which I could go on & on,etc.

Whatever you use, please try and remember to "focus on the solution and not the

problem."


tc


mctavish23

(Robert)

[tudorose]

I guess if you're looking long term to you child eventually being able to live independently then they do need to learn consequences. As adults with ADD we do lots of stupid and forgetful things like forgetting put the meat in the fridge when you've done the shopping - consequence is that you have to go and buy some more and the dog loves you very much for it.

My son constantly loses important things and forgets to lock things. As a result he no longer has a house key as that presents a security risk to the whole family if he leaves and forgets to lock up. Not so much a punishment but a consequence of his actions.

[stef]

Natural consequences yes (and help out if the situation is drastic); but for example paying an overdue book fine is a fair consequence.
but no kind of punishment for forgetting! you don't forget on purpose with ADD and you feel terrible when it happens, especially when you've been trying so hard not to forget...

[Dizfriz]

The question is what is meant by consequences? If it means punishment then it is probably not appropriate as the child may have truly forgotten. ADHD kids can forget more than non ADHD kids. I do not think you are doing this but the point needs to be made.

What you need are some specific ideas and a general format from which to work with your child. Here is something that has worked well for me over the years and is foundational to how I work with children. You hold the child responsible for the consequences of their behaviors. By this I mean, in this case, that although the child forgot he or she is still responsible. It does not matter if it was on purpose or not, there is still responsibility, and that belongs to the child. Again, I do not mean punishment but instead responsibility. Not to hurt but to teach.

So what to do? I stole this particular method from Barkley and it has worked well for a number of parents of ADHD children. There are a lot of variations on this but the basic format is sound and has been effective. There are a lot of ways of handling this situation and this is just one. Use this as you wish. It is posted to give ideas and that is all.

Have the child bring home a list of classmates and their phone numbers. If the child forgets the homework, have *them* call and find someone with a copy. If both have a fax machine or scanners and email, the child can get the assignment this way. Otherwise the parent needs to drive the kid to the friend's house and the child goes in and gets the assignment, not the parent. The parent can go in with the child but the responsibility falls on the kid to handle the situation.

The point here is that even if the child truly forgot, it is still he or she's responsibility to make sure the assignment comes home. The "I forgot!" can also be an good excuse and helps get the parent off their case. This handles that issue. The attitude is that the child forgot and that is ok, it happens but it is still the child responsibility to make it right. If you let them off the hook on that responsibility, you may be setting yourself up for a lot of "I forgot" behaviors.

Some schools will allow a parent to check out or buy copies of the text books the kid is using so there can be a copy at home. Often the school will allow the parent to return the books for full credit at the end of the semester. This way if a child forgets their books, you will have a copy at home. As a suggestion, try to put in the IEP that the school will let you keep extra copies of the books at home.

I actually wrote more on this but saw my writing was a tad muddy so edited those parts out. Ah well, fuzzy head, fuzzy writing. Those days do happen don't they?

Dizfriz

[Vickie]

We had gone through a period where our youngest would not bring anything home and seemed to not care about any consequences. She was just in such overwhelm at school and was shutting down so all of the school work came home as well as the usual homework. This was way too much for a kid who had just moved from Montessori (no homework) to public school with alot of homework, all at the time we were trying to get through the diagnostic process for dyslexia and ADHD.

The school IEP team set up rewards and consequences with my husband and I, to work on behaviors and try to teach her to organize her homework. First we worked with the IEP team to get accommodations in place (as recommended by the resource teacher, who also has a child with ADHD) so that we could break the homework issue into several parts and start work on a few behaviors and build up to the whole picture. The IEP development plan included 3 behaviors at school-writing in the planner, turning in homework and doing classwork; and 2 behaviors at home-doing homework and showing us the work in the planner was done. These added to a max of 5 points she could earn each day.

Modifications were also made per IEP so we were not asking her to do too much all at once:
We were given a set of school books for home.
The teacher checked the planner and made sure homework was all listed.
The RSP teacher made binder separator pockets for each subject with "to do" homework in the left pocket and "done" homework in the right pocket to make checking for worksheets quick and easy.
There was also help with dysgraphia and spelling tests in a quieter environment, as needed.

The teacher would report on the 3 behaviors each day and we would fill in the 2 home behaviors and comment. Small nightly rewards came based on the number of successful behaviors and larger rewards came for at least 3 days of expected behavior (short and long rewards). We had to find things our daughter wanted (tv time, game time, $ toward new game) for her rewards and that took trial and error and we gave each thing a value and printed the page for her reference. Not bringing home her work meant that she did not get rewarded and had to spend a set amount of study time reading or practicing her typing skills (she did not get out of work). We started with her getting 3 out of 5 for a reward and as the year progressed, she needed to get 4 then 5 out of 5 for the reward as she progressed.

By the following year, she had learned to get everything in the planner and bring home the work so the teacher did not need to check anymore. Also, with meds she did so much more of the work in class and had so much less to bring home, making everything a bit easier as well. With time we were able to transition to a loose plan: when homework is done (chores too), your time is yours for tv or games or other activities.

Now in the 8th grade, all the kids have a set of books at home (go figure) and she has RSP english that can provide extra help in subjects as needed, but needs very little help.

This is a pretty extreme example for when all of the simpler rewards/consequences that we tried had failed.

[MuscleMama]

I'm not the OP, but there's lots of good advice in this thread - thanks!

[litlcntrygrl]

Thank you all for the helpful advice. Chris was diagnosed with ADHD just last year and I am still learning. It doesn't help that he went to live with his father for a while shortly after that. Not something I wanted to do, but it was easier than dragging him through the courts at the time. I knew it would work itself out, and it did.

It's really hard to say if he misplaces papers on purpose, especially since he absolutely hates school. He says everyone is mean to him. As far as bringing things home, I truly believe that he really wants to remember, but can't. I know how he feels. I have never been diagnosed with ADHD but the more I read about it, the more I think I have it, which would explain why Chris has it. I forget everything. He tells me that he thinks people steal his papers because he remembers where he put them and then they aren't there when he goes to look for them. This is another up in the air moment, since it's hard to say whether he really did forget where he put them (despite his claims to the contrary) or if this just sounds like a better excuse for him than "I forgot".

I have been seriously considering pulling him out of public school and enrolling him in the virtual charter school that recently opened in this state. I believe that working one on one with him would help him tremendously and since most of his work would be online, there would be less to misplace. His father isn't crazy about the idea and thinks that Chris is just using his disability as a crutch or an excuse, and that if we discipline him when he forgets things by taking away privileges or video games that that will make him become more responsible. I have primary custody now, so the decision is up to me, thank goodness. We are divorced for a reason.

[trishcan]

Online classes can be tricky for children or adults with adhd. There is usually more "busywork" to make up for the time not accumulated through lectures, activities, group learning, etc. I can't attest to the curriculum of the specific school, but assignments are generally repetitive, mundane, and entirely uninteresting.

Also, if the class has due dates or deadlines, time management could become a real issue. You may also have less ability to request accommodations for your son in a "virtual school" because there is less ability to be creative and really individualize the work to build on your son's strengths and interests.

[Yarrgh]

Punishment is an effective short term method of correcting behavior.
However, it is ineffective at producing long-term behaviors and attitudes, which is what one would think should be fostered in a child.

Anyways, I just learnt that from a psych 100 class, so I'm by no means an authority on parental issues, haha.

Its really tricky deciding when (or rather, in what manner) a child should be shown the consequences for their actions, especially with ADHD. For example, starting in elementary school my mom wanted to teach me some basic organizational skills and decided that I should make my own lunch.
The natural consequence for neglecting this would be that I wouldn't eat all day.
Fortunately, I would think most kids would start making their lunch pretty quickly after a few days without food. Unfortunately for me, the frustration and tediousness of remembering to make my lunch, and make the lunch appropriate, was simply not preferable when weighted against missing the meals.

So I didn't eat all day and then binged at supper, and eventually my mom just gave me lunch money because of the weight I had lost. Thus, I think careful consideration needs to be taken when assessing the correct consequences for a child's behavior when they have ADHD, because they find tasks such as simple organization much more difficult then most of their peers. (or at least I think they do. I know I did)

I'm not saying dismiss the behavior, but rather give extra attention to it, and focus more on shaping the behaviors with positive reinforcement and other techniques. Of course, personally if a child is doing something you know they know is unacceptable, then I'm all for some punishment, but apparently studies show that a combination of active ignoring, positive reinforcement and giving clear direction are some of the most effective strategies, not positive or negative punishment. Plus their self-esteem is already at risk of being poor: no use in punishing them and exacerbating something they probably already feel inferior about, in my opinion.

I always feel morbidly amused for some reason that punishment is often much easier then implementing other behavioral modifications, yet parents are sometimes criticized that they haven't had the strength to strongly discipline their child. Kind of funny.

Anyways, I'm just writing an essay on the efficacy of behavioral therapies in the symptomatic relief of ADHD in adolescents. Wish I could give some more constructive examples of "behavioral modifications", but I've only just started it.

[Dizfriz]

Yarrgh

You brought up a very good question of the timing of consequences for an ADHD child.

We really have a pretty good handle on this. You might be interested in this short article on the point of performance and consequences in the environment. You can find it at
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60130

You can find out more on this in this transcript of a Russell Barkley workshop. You can download it from here. It is 40 pages long and while written in 2000 is still pretty much up to date. It has top of the line information on ADHD and how to handle it.
http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/showarticle/2054

For your essay you also might look at "Taking Charge of ADHD: The Complete, Authoritative Guide for Parents"
(Revised Edition) by Russell A. Barkley (Paperback - Sep 1, 2000). It has some good discussions of behavior management methods for ADHD.


Dizfriz

[Yarrgh]

Originally Posted by Dizfriz

Yarrgh

You brought up a very good question of the timing of consequences for an ADHD child.

We really have a pretty good handle on this. You might be interested in this short article on the point of performance and consequences in the environment. You can find it at
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60130

You can find out more on this in this transcript of a Russell Barkley workshop. You can download it from here. It is 40 pages long and while written in 2000 is still pretty much up to date. It has top of the line information on ADHD and how to handle it.
http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/showarticle/2054

For your essay you also might look at "Taking Charge of ADHD: The Complete, Authoritative Guide for Parents"
(Revised Edition) by Russell A. Barkley (Paperback - Sep 1, 2000). It has some good discussions of behavior management methods for ADHD.


Dizfriz

Ohhhh man, you have no idea how much this will help my essay!
I've been trying to find more ideas for behavioral managements, but its been difficult. I'm going to use some of these when searching for articles in journal databases!
Of course, I can't actually use the info itself because its not from a peer-reviewed academic journal, but some of the ideas will really help when trying to figure out what search terms I should use, and whats appropriate info. Thanks a lot!