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  #76  
Old 10-25-07, 11:13 PM
krazy_mountain krazy_mountain is offline
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Re: Men and porn?

Wow! What a thread, I read every post!
Well, after suffering for years (I'm in my early 30's) I just got diagnosed with ADD about a month ago. Since then, I've been clamouring for resources and got to this site. This was my first thread that I read and this is my first post I'm writing. ( Sounds a bit melodramatic, doesn't it ?)

I have been struggling with all the issues mentioned here. I have so much to say. But I'll try to keep it brief for now.

These quotes in this thread particularly grabbed me:
Kilted Scotsman, could you explain more about primates, OCD and unstimilating environments please?


Quote:
Kilted Scotsman-

The more unstimulating the environment the more likely it is that a primate will start to indulge in OCD type repetitive behaviour, often involving some form of stimulation be it sexual arousal or pain, which led to embarrassing scenes in victorian zoos. This is not hyperfocus as I would understand it.

As a forum we know far to little about the circumstances to offer categoric advice, this would be best left to a therapist. Sex addiction is real and I for one feel that this is something this forum quietly brushes under the carpet. If someone with ADHD is more likely to seek stimulation with illicit drugs, risk taking behaviour, alcohol, stimulants etc to omit sexual arousal from the list is odd.
I felt like Meadd823 was right on in her expression here. I was at first going to ignore Meadd823ís rather long response, but I forced myself to read it, and found some real gold. I think this paragraph really summarised how I feel:


Quote:
Meadd823 -

He wants to break free of the confinement of "expected social behavior" if even for a moment. The hunter thing a couple of the men described is close to what I have felt { and yes I am female but I am not a normal female} To me it is like an urge, a pressure a feeling of wanting to run inside. To just be who I am , not be ashamed of what I am even if only for a moment. Plus as meantioned the stimulation clears the mind which is why we ADDers are drawn to it. It isn't a sin to be this why and it shouldn't be drug around like some thing we should be ashamed of either. The fact that desiring stimulation is talked about like it is some how the wrong way to be is one of the reasons so many of us go under ground and end up dealing with it in some unhealthy ways.



viewing the taboo, and yes even seeking that which is "forbidden".
  #77  
Old 10-25-07, 11:41 PM
kilted_scotsman kilted_scotsman is offline
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Re: Men and porn?

Hi Krazy mountain

I was just making the analogy that environments where there is inadequate mental stimulation for example in the bare cages in old style zoos appear to cause Obsessive compulsive/addictive/repetitive behaviours as animals attempted to provide alternative stimulation to the brain. Male primates in particular often masturbated repetitively in these circumstances.

In modern zoos alot of effort is made to make the environments more stimulating to reduce or eliminate these behaviours.

The analogy was used to point out that primates will seek the best stimulation they can to meet their needs in any given environment and the sexual arousal triggered by porn would be fairly high on the list of activities giving a high reward for low input given both its sexual stimulation and the associations with illicit risky activity.

kilt
  #78  
Old 10-25-07, 11:47 PM
krazy_mountain krazy_mountain is offline
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Re: Men and porn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilted_scotsman

The analogy was used to point out that primates will seek the best stimulation they can to meet their needs in any given environment and the sexual arousal triggered by porn would be fairly high on the list of activities giving a high reward for low input given both its sexual stimulation and the associations with illicit risky activity.

kilt
Thanks for the replay. What's the deal with 'illicit risky activity'? Why does that give such a high reward?
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  #79  
Old 10-26-07, 03:22 AM
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Re: Men and porn?

Quote:
What's the deal with 'illicit risky activity'? Why does that give such a high reward?
It is not the reward it is the rush. The danger, errrr

I can't translate into regular words what I am saying The closest thing I can come to it is the song version - I hear "secret agent man", for those unfamiliar with the song simply click here



Quote:
What about viewing porn multiple times a day though? Everything in moderation obviously but if someone is spending so much time watching porn that they're neglecting relationships it can't be too healthy for them..
Well if he is on the verge of getting fired because he spends more time watching porn than doing his job then you have a point. Watching porn at work may simply be a way of making an other wise unstimulated environment stimulating in two ways - the sexually explicit material and the risk of getting caught. It is the rush that wakes up our brain that draws us - thus the use of stimulants to treat ADD - risk taking is a way of stimulating our brain with the same chemicals minus the drug.

Nothing more exciting , not really all that sinister {IMHO}


Gary goes through his phases from time to time, we have agreed upon boundaries which may not be 100% "traditional"{closer to a modified version } but they work for us. With us both being ADD worlds can change quickly but the basic boundaries do not.


Quote:
As one who has problems with depression and addictions of various types there is nothing I would like more than a partner willing to come into the darkness to find me......with a torch.
Well I don't have the attention span to stand on the out side and call his name over and over at nausea. Too boring for me I got ADD so yea I am going into the closet and check it out with him, I grab a light to keep from falling over all the stuff most people have in their closet. . So far I have always remembered my way back out {although I still get lost in my own back yard}

I do not understand why many people {women specifically} feel unable or unwilling to do this but apparently this is one of my "not normal female " features. It works extremely well even with the most "difficult" men in an honest way that has lasting effects.
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  #80  
Old 10-26-07, 01:08 PM
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Re: Men and porn?

its porn. it often leads to masturbation (a form of sex). sex feels good. even watching porn with out physicaly touching yourself is a form of masturbation. everyone says masturbation is healthy. but then they say porn is bad. especialy women.

in my opinion it is only showing signs of addiction when it conflicts with ones responsibillitys. if you had sex with your husband to the point that he did not go to work then that would be an addiction problem.

but say from the moment that you got home you two had sex until you went to bed, hey thats fine. people would call it healthy and would be envious.

but the guy living alone masturbates everynight while watching porn... suddenly hes a weirdo, or has a problem. no the guy likes sex but has no one to do it with, hello.

the same applys in a marriage. sudenly the guy or girl is sex starved by their partner. so they masturbate.

just because one partner thinks that once a month is enough doesnt mean the other person has to aggree. if some compromise is not made then two things can occur; masturbation, or cheating.

i would have my wife masturbating every night rather than screwing the neighbor.
  #81  
Old 10-27-07, 02:23 AM
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Last edited by meadd823; 10-27-07 at 02:38 AM..
  #82  
Old 10-27-07, 07:12 AM
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Re: Men and porn?

Quote:
in my opinion it is only showing signs of addiction when it conflicts with ones responsibillitys.
:soapbox: if that were truly the case then there would be no one that could be classified a functional acholic. not every one who has an addiction problem has conflict at the start with his or her responsibilities. to say that the person needs to show certain signs that he or she has an addiction problem is not a good thing. for years I could rationalize my self out of the idea that I had a problem. In my opinion addiction of any sort is an illness. Then following the logic above, if I had cancer, it is only a threat when it starts to interfer with activities of daily life. Well by that point it may be to late to do anything. the same can be said for an addiction, no matter what form it takes. by the time it is showing signs of affecting a persons responsibilities it may to late to save the intact family or a job. addiction manifests it self in many many ways to many many different people. to minimize it is dangourus. I am sorry if my reply is abrupt, but i know from personal experiances that if you wait to long it is not good.
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  #83  
Old 10-27-07, 11:21 AM
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Re: Men and porn?

Quote:
I am sorry if my reply is abrupt, but i know from personal experiances that if you wait to long it is not good.
Hmm this abrupt? I do not see this at all really. I see this an you opinion and nothing wrong with that {IMHO}

Quote:
needs to show certain signs that he or she has an addiction problem is not a good thing. for years I could rationalize my self out of the idea that I a problem. In my opinion addiction of any sort is an illness.
I read this and understood it in light of our condition. ADD is not considered a "condition" until it impairs ones ability to function in two or more areas of your life no less.

Placing the limit at impairment is not a bad thing because it is equally dangerous to label every deviance in behavior as a pathology or abnormality because it leaves no room for individual variations.

Here is one of the sex addiction sites that popped up on google Signs Of Sexual Addiction-Quiz

1. Do you masturbate while imagining sexual images, viewing explicit materials or remembering people you've seen?

2. Have you ever masturbated to the point of not being sexually interested in you spouse?

3. Do you attend "adult" theaters or drive-ins?

4. Do you visit nude (partially or totally) night clubs or strip clubs?

5. Do you engage in cyber-sex or phone sex?

6. Do you visit peep shows, where people display their sexual organs?

7. Do you engage in spouse swapping or orgy type behavior?

8. Do you ever pressure your spouse for sex when they don't feel like it?

9. Do you ever pressure your spouse to engage in sexual behavior they're uncomfortable with?

10. Do you use prostitutes?

11. Do you masturbate while thinking about children or young teens?

12. Do you masturbate while viewing pornographic images of children or young teens?

13. Do you think about children or young teens while making love with your spouse?

14. Do you masturbate often while thinking about a particular child or young teen?

***End Quote


#7 - partner swapping may or may not be a sigh of sexual addiction. What about people who are bi-sexual? Are they now pathologized as disordered? It is not all that uncommon for bisexuals to have different sexual rules of conduct within their primary relationships simply due to the nature of their sexual preferences!

#1 There is some how some thing wrong with this? Hello now if one does #1 and is a bi-sexual this is two strikes against them.


#4 - do nude beaches count?

#6 so peep show are not a sign as long as no sexual organs are displayed?

Am I the only one who knows that what we consider child porn here is acceptable in Japan? They do not have the age limits we do and they never have So is the entire Japanese society sick? I do not go in for child porn and I agree with our laws against it but my point is these are differences in culture not mental health!

I know this is looking at the amount of these behaviors one engages in as a determining factor however those with alternative moral perspectives concerning sex may actually engage in enough of these behavior to qualify according to this. Plus I notice no frequency levels. Viewing peep shows once a month is different than every night.

To place alternative sexual life styles and preferences in the light of having some sort of addiction is really very repulsive to me as a person. I was not reared with all these pre-defined conservative expectations regarding sexual behavior or preferences. I sure in the Sam Hill refuse even consider this a disease or an addiction! I have lived both the conservative life style and the rather different one I can switch at will by merely choosing to do so.

Now progression may be an indicator to some extent - but then again my hobbies are progressive. I went from learning how to navigate the internet to actually making computers out of other computers combining hard drives and in-put devices - does that make me a computer addict? Some time I stay up to late on the computer but then again I can have sleep problems minus a computer {which means every one else shall share in my sleep problems because I will surly keep them awake bouncing off the walls or starting a chain saw at 3;00am. }

Gary accused me of being an Internet addict until we went on a trip minus a computer and guess what I still stayed up most of the night - I kept him up too - because he was stuck in a tiny motel room with a woman who was bouncing off the walls. The next day he harrowed a computer from his brother so he could sleep and not worry about me taking a walk in a strange town in the wee hours of the morning .

Gary learned the computer is my way of dealing with a insomnia it is not the cause of it - even though he lived with me he couldn't tell the difference until I did not have access to a computer. One of the way of knowing addiction from coping behavior is weather or not the person can have an abrupt cease of said activity voluntarily without feeling anxious or stressed. I have taken nights off from the computer with it sitting in the same room simply so Gary and I can spend time doing some thing else together. He has a harder time dealing with out a TV than I do a computer - he didn't like it when I "accused" him of being a TV addict because he prefers the white noise. He got the need to be careful about label application of behaviors simply because they do not line up with his idea of "normal"

I do not totally disagree with you because only you knew what you went through. My point is that applications of labels such as addiction should be done carefully and in a manner that acknowledges individual variations in sexual preferences, morals and life styles. ...least we be endanger of setting psychiatry back some 40 years when homosexuality was considered a mental illness.
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Last edited by meadd823; 10-27-07 at 11:35 AM..
  #84  
Old 10-27-07, 04:38 PM
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Re: Men and porn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunaslobo
:soapbox: if that were truly the case then there would be no one that could be classified a functional acholic.
i dont believe in functional alcoholic. i would classify as heavy drinker. now if they are getting drunk and then getting behind the wheel. they are shirking their resposibilties and have an addiction problem. many classify addiction as doing something regularly that they themselves would find offensive, or inapropriate.

aa would classify getting drunk is alcoholism. and they did to me. said if i drink alcohol to get drunk then im an alcoholic. well to each his/her opinion. there is a large movement towards alcohol moderation instead of aa abstinance. much to aa dislike.

the same can apply towards porn. just because someone watches porn, does not make them a porn addict, or perverse.

my wife and i used to subscribe to the playboy channel and would nightly have sex while watching it. does that make us porn addicts? i would think not. but here is the thing, if it was a guy who was alone masturbating and watching porn, many would say he was a porn addict, or perverted.

its all in your point of view. how you view the world around you will greatly affect in how you judge others.
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Old 10-27-07, 04:50 PM
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Re: Men and porn?

and... well put mead823
  #86  
Old 10-27-07, 05:34 PM
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Re: Men and porn?

Well.....I was an alcoholic by the regular drink driving criteria....and though I say I had an issue with alcohol I don't think I was an alcoholic.....but maybe thats just denial.

A far as sex addiction goes, by the criteria above I wouldn't be in any way an addict but I would say that in my own mind I have as much a problem with sex as I have with alcohol.

THere are two massive blind spots in US/UK cultural outlook......drugs and sex. As soon as these are mentioned the cultural legacy kicks in and objective decisionmaking becomes almost impossible.

The pathologising of natural behaviour is a dangerous thing leading to much misery for many and allow control freaks to stigmatise and humiliate those not conforming to the cultural missionary position. The consequent loss of self esteem causes all sorts of personal psychological fallout.

kilted
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Old 10-27-07, 06:58 PM
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Re: Men and porn?

hey scotsman,

the drunk driving thing was only an example. everyone has addictions but do they have an addiction problem would be the best description. im addicted to air, and im afraid if i stop breathing it i may die. tv, internet, sex, skiing, tobaco, heroine, coffee and the list goes on. no i dont do heroine, but i have a friend that does. some addictions can be bad for your health, tobaco. but for the most part tobaco harms no one else other than the user. the same can be said about drinking. heavy drinker would be in my book an addict. but are they only harming themselves or are they harming others?

we go down to my buddys in WV and get absolutely tanked and go out driving in his pickup, hootin and howlerin. i told my neighbor this and she had a bird. couldnt get the stigma of dinking and driving out of her mind. but we were on my buddys property. the only people we could have hurt would have been ourselves. so who cares, its fun and wasnt illegal. oughta try shootin a 45, standing on the back of a pickup going 50 mph through a field and throwing half sticks of dynamite.

my wife was bent outa shape over the whole deal. didnt want me to get hurt. but she goes rockclimbing with me, 400 feet up hanging from a 1/2' piece of rope attached to two small pieces of pro. whats the dif? well its about her approval. and yes we settled down and got outa the truck. the wife rules.

so back to the heavy drinker, ok they are an addict, are they harming or possibly could harm someone, ie driving a car. if so they got a problem. especialy if they dont care whether someone else is harmed. im addicted to air, the addiction could become a problem if i obsessed over it to the point of driving the rest of my family crazy. to the point that they might leave me to protect the kids. could happen, see me running around screaming i need more air.

addictions are not an illness like cancer. addiction problems are.

im also addicted to my wife, dont know what i would do without her.
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Old 10-29-07, 12:49 AM
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Re: Men and porn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilted_scotsman
The pathologising of natural behaviour is a dangerous thing leading to much misery for many and allow control freaks to stigmatise and humiliate those not conforming to the cultural missionary position. The consequent loss of self esteem causes all sorts of personal psychological fallout.
Hey You put it better that I did!

Good show.

I think I may have a decent working definition of addiction thanks to the quote below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by douggiestyle
tobaco. but for the most part tobaco harms no one else other than the user. the same can be said about drinking. heavy drinker would be in my book an addict. but are they only harming themselves or are they harming others?
I smoke and drink on a regular basis however I am addicted to cigarettes but not alcohol. I just figured out the difference.

An addiction is a habit one continues but not necessarily due to pleasure but to prevent withdraw.

I know I am not addicted to adderall because I forget to take it all the time. There are times I feel rebellious and get tired of swallowing a damn pill so I simply don't. I am a little airy between the ears , there is a trail of crap that fallows me and it is not the time to do the books for our business but do not have cravings for my medications.

I do not drink to avoid withdraws I have not been drunk in years however I do drink especially when I do debates - I actually debate better because the alcohol extends the length of time my ADD medications work. Better living through modern chemistry - one of my natural talents.

However I smoke even when I do not really want to because withdraw is uncomfortable. I have known both drug addicts and alcoholics who used not because they wanted to but because they felt like that had to - weather the withdraw is mental or physical it matters not All that matters is a habit is continued despite the person's desire to stop or acknowledgment that they should. Addiction is a feeling of helplessness really even if one doesn't readily admit it addicts I believe KNOW just as I know I am addicted to nicotine.




Quote:
Well.....I was an alcoholic by the regular drink driving criteria.
I have never driven while intoxicated but I have left my car at plenty of bars. It sucks when you have to call around town to find out which one. Not because I was drunk when I parked it but because well crap I have ADD I forget where I leave stuff all the time. {including but not limited to my car}




Quote:
Originally Posted by kilted_scotsman
A far as sex addiction goes, by the criteria above I wouldn't be in any way an addict but I would say that in my own mind I have as much a problem with sex as I have with alcohol.
My "results"

If you answered "yes" to 8 or more questions from A and B above, it is likely you have a sexual or pornographic addiction

{so much for the men and porn stigma - eh? The OP just thought I did not qualify to answer - maybe I was born the wrong gender - hmmm}


Then there are no time periods given - while I do not fit the criteria right this minute I do I fit the criteria should the questions cover a period of say two years. I have lived more than one life style in my one life time.

I am not a conventional person in any stretch of the imagination. I can change the approach to my sex life on a dime simply because I chose to. Now that I am married sexual life style changes are a two person decision and yes I respect Gary's feelings first and foremost {even before my own } had I not been willing to do this I would not have married him. I also know Gary does the same for me as well.
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Old 10-29-07, 02:36 AM
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Re: Men and porn?

re: 63

I'd agree on the time thing. One definition of addiction (or problematic usage of anything) is if it interferes with your ADLs. ADLs are the Activities of Daily Living.

Another sign of problematic usage of anything is the "compulsion to use". IF it is interfering with your rel'ps, and taking up too much time, taking priority over other thigns, and if the content is NASTY or degrading to a group of people (women), then I'd say it's a 'problem'.

Some men also can't perform b/c they have to have this stimulation in their heads (fantasies of degrading porn content) or in front of their eyes (strippers or whatever, etc). They aren't thinking too much of their spouses when they ARE having relations with her, methinks. (e.g. 'staying present')

That negativity transfers too, as the unreal expectations (huge boobs; no cellulite or stretchmarks) transfer into spousal expectations that can't be met when you're a mom whose had 3 kids, and the bodily roadmap to prove it.
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Old 10-29-07, 05:12 PM
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Re: Men and porn?

I was reading this book on ADHD and the author mentioned some really interesting things that I could relate with.

People with ADHD can respond to sexuality in 2 different ways:

1. Is disinterest because they are not focussed enough to enjoy it.

2. The other is a hyper-focus to it and almost an addiction to it.

I could relate with both feelings. A lot of times during physical sex I feel distracted and not fully in control. I don't feel like I have access to all my feelings and emotions like I would like to. 'Things' seem to go faster than my emotions. I almost feel forced.
I have tried to slow down the physical experience, but then it seems to not feel as spontaneous.
Cyber sex allows me to slow the whole experience down. It also lets me focus on one thing at a time. I'm not overwhelmed by sensory input. Someone in this thread said it was a control thing. It is for me. It allows me to be as I want to without feeling overwhelmed.

Chatting allows me to really deeply focus on the experience...and really lose myself in. It is one thing that I feel I have a natural focus for and I can just be spontaneous about...and just go with the flow. There are very few interactive activities in my life that I can just let go...and interact.
I like being able to leave my life and just clear my head. It feels great.

Krazy mountain
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