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  #31  
Old 12-02-17, 01:13 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Myself isn't attractive. Myself is the guy that should be ignored and avoided.
Personality, personality, personality.
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  #32  
Old 12-02-17, 01:31 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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I'd probably tell a woman that I loved her on the first date. It's not being emotional though is it? It's just me being emotionally insecure.
Why would you tell her you love her on the first date? It obviously wouldn't be the truth. Because you want her to know how much you like her so far and are enjoying the date? Definitely don't tell someone you love them until you're sure you mean it, but definitely do tell them you enjoyed the date and want to see them again. There's nothing wrong with being open and honest that you like them and want to see them again.

Then your actions have to line up and you have to show them you're interested. It's tricky because what works for one person, won't work for another. What immediately got my attention with the guy I'm seeing now, is that from the beginning, he sent me a good morning text every morning, which showed me he was thinking of me. This may come across as desperate or too much to some women, but to me and I'm sure others, it comes across as sweet and considerate. They will start to look forward to it. He also makes plans with me in advance and sticks to them, no last minute plans or cancellations.

These "little" things go a long way. If a woman wants to be respected and taken seriously, she should appreciate these things. No need to go over board and start using the "L" word too soon. He did start calling me "dear", which living in Texas, it's common for men to call women "honey", "dear", etc. so I wasn't sure what to make of it. But I'm not comfortable with pet names, especially not this soon, so I didn't reciprocate and he backed off on that. Don't start with "snookums" or anything like that right away, lol.
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  #33  
Old 12-02-17, 05:38 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

That's my problem, I "think" I mean it when I say it. But perhaps I just don't know what real love is at all. Because i've never had a chance to really experience it.
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  #34  
Old 12-02-17, 05:50 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
That's my problem, I "think" I mean it when I say it. But perhaps I just don't know what real love is at all. Because i've never had a chance to really experience it.
It doesn't really matter. There's an etiquette to follow. Anyone, male or female will think something is off if their date announces they're in love with them on the very first date they go on. I'd tell you how soon is reasonable but frankly, I suck at the whole thing myself.

Kind of wish we had a chit chat thread on dating etiquette, tips, and advice requests. Feels like a lot of us need it.
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  #35  
Old 12-02-17, 07:05 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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That's my problem, I "think" I mean it when I say it. But perhaps I just don't know what real love is at all. Because i've never had a chance to really experience it.
I honestly don't think I've ever experienced it, either. Infatuation, maybe, but not love.
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  #36  
Old 12-02-17, 07:11 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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I honestly don't think I've ever experienced it, either. Infatuation, maybe, but not love.
It's such a strange thing. If you've never experienced love before, then how will you know when it happens?
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Old 12-02-17, 07:12 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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It's such a strange thing. If you've never experienced love before, then how will you know when it happens?
When it happens, it never goes away. Always.
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  #38  
Old 12-02-17, 07:42 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
It's such a strange thing. If you've never experienced love before, then how will you know when it happens?
Well, I now know what love isn't and I hope someday I'll know what it is. I imagine it is something like feeling so close with the other person that they complete you, they are your other half. I think the words "your other half" are thrown around so often it doesn't seem to mean anything significant anymore. But I think with love, they really do feel like your other half, they are a part of you that you can't live without.
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  #39  
Old 12-02-17, 09:38 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

Passionate love.

Compassionate love.

Companionate love.
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  #40  
Old 12-02-17, 11:48 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Myself isn't attractive. Myself is the guy that should be ignored and avoided.
Whatever we think of ourselves, we are always acting on a biassed selection of the total facts about our selves. Other people do it too- to both themselves and us.
However it is possible to look at all the facts and chose a more positive cluster of them to represent your "self'. Hence the statement "Its never too late to have a happy childhood- an unbiassed memory will bring back many positive points about the past and then you can draw a new line of best fit.

The neurologist Antonio Damasio commented that the reason for having a self is that it allows us to construct a narrative that helps to remind us of what we are doing, what shopping we need to do for dinner.

Thats a very fluid way of thinking about the ego or self- but if your self is constructing a world in which you are likely to remain isolated and unhappy, then maybe start constructing a new one? A hell of a lot depends on whether we are properly relaxed- as most of our ability to engage well depends on having a nervous system in a state of balance. Everyone knows when someone is faking being friendly or relaxed, and it just makes for awkward interactions.

On a couple of threads I have started this week I have been talking about the effect of an overactive stress response in ADHD- and referencing some work by a US osteopath. Now I don't have a great problem socialising, but sometimes it can be hard to get going. My work requires me to be very observant of the states of people who have come to see me- so I am becoming much better at reading body language and understand very well the body language that arises from a balanced state of relaxation.

I also understand clearly the physical signs that i am not relaxed.

Now the reason i mentioned that thread on mechanisms behind ADHD was this:
The mechanism is a physical one that creates a higher and higher stress state to see that enough blood gets uphill to the brain. While I was aware of some of the symptoms (cold fingers, a fast heart rate, breaking out in a sweat easily, feeling restless and fidgety)-- I was not aware of the effect it was having on my socialising (except that my partner commented that my voice was flat and expressionless.

I solved the problem of the stress response in myself in the last 10 days, and the first thing I noticed once I got out of the house was that socialising was easier. Of note one younger barmaid engaged remarkably well with me- good eye contact, very expressive, lots of little microexpressions that indicated she was at ease. Not that I was flirting- but just that the interaction seemed to be going for me more the way they do for "normal people". Seeing the shift, and being objectively aware of it was a useful experience.

On a slightly different note- most useful advice Ive ever received about dating (or just chatting to women I find attractive without intending to date) is too keep the attention on the other person. Ask questions, look for opening and chances to make positive comments.
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  #41  
Old 12-02-17, 11:52 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
That's my problem, I "think" I mean it when I say it. But perhaps I just don't know what real love is at all. Because i've never had a chance to really experience it.
Its very unlikely that you will ever get to know a person well enough on the first date to be sure that you love them- but most people are actually lovable once you get to know "the real them".
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  #42  
Old 12-03-17, 12:46 AM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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I make the mistake of telling them that I ramble on too much (which I do). I just don't know when to put the phone down and keep them waiting for a while. I always feel the urge to respond back as soon as possible. I think it's just poor impulse control. I'm far too impatient to play the waiting game.
I already have given my 2 cents on all this stuff before (or 4 cents, or 400) but if I was going to switch for a moment to the optimistic side, I'll tell you the few things I learned about this stuff that almost (but not quite) yielded positive results back when I was trying online stuff.

The first thing I had to learn after many quick rejections on various platforms, was always to expect the worst and expect you will not and cannot meet any women. Some don't like this train of thought for various reasons but it was in a sense a way to trick myself to keep going while diminishing the blow of rejection. If you already KNOW (or believe) it will fall through, it's not as bad when it does. If it does turn out good, it's an unexpected bonus.

The other thing is to find some way to be a "sidewinder." A couple of times when there was a lot of interest on the other side, it came from my writing an unusual profile or ad; one time it was from writing an ad where I literally asked "what am I doing wrong?" where I explained I could not keep a conversation going, and wondered what the problem was, etc. This goes against common sense--basically, complaining and asking for help--but the thing is an honest conversation about something else takes pressure off, allows you to get to know the person if the off-topic conversation goes well.
Now I did not actually meet that woman but I had some form of communication with her for months, I'm quite certain I could have met her; our style of writing clicked really well.

And actually I do agree about the waiting game somewhat, whether or not you're busy, it may be a good thing to appear as if you are. It seemed to work better for me doing it that way. I think answering too fast may seem a bit needy or something.
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Old 12-03-17, 01:21 AM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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The person I'm seeing now has 6 kids, is kind of "rough around the edges" and very blunt like me (which also scares away people, but attracts me because I like directness), and is not what many would describe as handsome (unless they like country rednecks with beards and tattoos). He's not rich or high status. Yet he is kind, easy going and simple, makes me feel valued, asks about my day and what's on my mind, shares the same beliefs and outlook on life as I do, shares the same interests, is consistent and reliable, and works damn hard to make the time to talk to me and see me, despite his busy life. Is this the "highest value" you're talking about?
Maybe not, but just from the details you provide, it seems to be a higher plane of functioning that I can't hope to approach.

I think there just isn't any good answer for "low functioning" men. Is there even a way to sidestep the facts of underachievement and/or difficulty with employment? I don't think outright honesty about it will ever work; maybe being honest about the actual problems that LED to being unaccomplished and work-challenged, may suffice for some women here and there. But I have never been able to be strictly honest about that stuff, it's not possible without getting shut-out quickly. Keeping it a mystery seems to work for a while (assuming I can get the rare conversation going.)

Right now I still can't think of anything I can offer, and probably not any of those things you mention above, at least not on the surface. I wonder if learning to socialize again (I've been avoidant for years) would make me rethink this; or, it could confirm that I'm totally out-of-step and every bit as pathetic as I suspect.

Maybe the kind of social rust I have leads to a distorted world-view and that's part of all this anger/hatred going on with me; on the other hand, maybe avoidance is the best choice because the view I have about men that "lack conventional value" is correct, and would be obvious once I'm out with other folks my age. A lot of guys on other sites, when I mention my crappy situation, use the Darwinian angle in describing high value vs low value; be attractive and confident, or make lotsa money, otherwise forget it.

I just don't know, I don't want to find out either.
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Old 12-03-17, 02:29 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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Maybe not, but just from the details you provide, it seems to be a higher plane of functioning that I can't hope to approach.

I think there just isn't any good answer for "low functioning" men. Is there even a way to sidestep the facts of underachievement and/or difficulty with employment? I don't think outright honesty about it will ever work; maybe being honest about the actual problems that LED to being unaccomplished and work-challenged, may suffice for some women here and there. But I have never been able to be strictly honest about that stuff, it's not possible without getting shut-out quickly. Keeping it a mystery seems to work for a while (assuming I can get the rare conversation going.)
I don't know. There are a lot of people out there in relationships with people who don't have jobs, for various reasons. It is difficult for a lot of people to get and keep a job, these days. I don't know how many of those relationships started out with one of them being jobless, though. It probably stands out a lot more on a dating site, though, whereas people might be more forgiving in real life. Maybe it would help if you said you were unable to work due to disability, but that you were receiving support elsewhere and that they would not have to support you?


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Originally Posted by Batman55
Right now I still can't think of anything I can offer, and probably not any of those things you mention above, at least not on the surface. I wonder if learning to socialize again (I've been avoidant for years) would make me rethink this; or, it could confirm that I'm totally out-of-step and every bit as pathetic as I suspect.

Maybe the kind of social rust I have leads to a distorted world-view and that's part of all this anger/hatred going on with me; on the other hand, maybe avoidance is the best choice because the view I have about men that "lack conventional value" is correct, and would be obvious once I'm out with other folks my age. A lot of guys on other sites, when I mention my crappy situation, use the Darwinian angle in describing high value vs low value; be attractive and confident, or make lotsa money, otherwise forget it.

I just don't know, I don't want to find out either.
Well, I can understand the "what ifs", but you have to realize that you're weighing the risks/benefits and making a choice. You won't know unless you try, but if you decide that it's too much of a risk, that's your choice. Although, even if you did try socializing and failed at it, that would not make you pathetic or worthless. But I think you already know that, even if it goes against your feelings and perceptions.
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Old 12-03-17, 06:12 PM
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Re: On a dating downer again

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A lot of guys on other sites, when I mention my crappy situation, use the Darwinian angle in describing high value vs low value; be attractive and confident, or make lotsa money, otherwise forget it.
Once upon a time, in a galaxy not that far away, there was a group of ancient ninjas living just outside the kingdom of Tarta. They were quite familiar with the area as well as the Tartian habitants, but were not originally from the there. Hundreds of years ago, their ancestors had arrived there in the interest of mutual trading. The Tartians were famous for their delicious pies and the ancient ninjas had their famous swords. It seemed like it would be an easy trade to make.

Yet, it had been hundreds of years and no deal had ever come to happen. At this point it had become personal for the ninjas, more than just a mere wish to trade at this point. The ninjas kept talking among themselves, wondering why they could never seem to strike a deal with the natives. They came up with ways to improve the designs of their swords and kept proposing them to the Tartians. The natives would have none of it. No pie for the ninjas, no matter what improvements they made.

One day, one of the ninjas came back from the royal family of Tarta. He had succeeded in trading a pie for a wooden sword. The other ninjas were utterly confused! That weapon was entirely useless and they couldn't fathom how he could possibly have pulled it off. It turned out, that all along, the Tartians needed more firewood to warm their ovens for making pies. They had no use for swords as weapons.

The ninjas valued their trade so much that they forgot to listen to what the Tartians actually wanted, because how would they trade wood for their infamous pies when even the best weaponry these skilled ancient ninjas could smith were not enough? Surely lesser swords, let alone a useless wooden one would have them laughed out and told never again to return. So impossible seemed the Tartians' standards! They thought the Tartians were merely testing them to see if they were truly worthy of their pies, when all along they were just given things of no use to them.

All the ancient ninjas had to do all along was to listen to the wishes of the Tartians, instead of telling each other what it is the natives must want.
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