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  #1  
Old 07-13-18, 10:45 PM
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has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

I've read of a study that has these dosages seemingly effective for OCD. I was just curious...
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Old 07-13-18, 11:06 PM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

Do you have a link to this study? I'd be curious to read it.
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Old 07-14-18, 12:00 AM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

I find Dex. and Adderall to be quite helpful with OCD. I find mixing it with a large amount of caffeine throughout the day to cause major anxiety and can lead to OCD. A large amount of caffeine for me is about 100 mg but spread out thru the day.

I wouldn’t ever consider taking 30 mg of Dex and then chase it with 300 mg of caffeine. I would probably become more OCD and obsessed from worrying about having a heart attack.

Please post the study if you can. I would be interested in reading it. It seems far fetched and dangerous to me.
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Old 07-14-18, 01:01 AM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

I think I found the study baical was referring to -- is it this one?
Koran LM, E Aboujaoude, NN Gamel. Double-Blind Study of Dextroamphetamine Versus Caffeine Augmentation for Treatment-Resistant Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. J Clin Psychiatry 2009;70(11):1530-1535. 10.4088/JCP.08m04605

If I'm reading the abstract correctly (haven't dug up the whole paper), they gave people dextroamphetamine OR caffeine, but not both at once.

Importantly, these medications (dex or caffeine) were given WITH an SSRI or SNRI (and whatever else they might have been taking already). The reported response rates were impressive, but the study was very, very small (24 people total, 12 in each group), and there was no non-interventional control group (i.e., no one got a placebo, so we don't know whether people would have had similar improvement without any additional medications).
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Old 07-14-18, 07:51 AM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post
I think I found the study baical was referring to -- is it this one?
Koran LM, E Aboujaoude, NN Gamel. Double-Blind Study of Dextroamphetamine Versus Caffeine Augmentation for Treatment-Resistant Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. J Clin Psychiatry 2009;70(11):1530-1535. 10.4088/JCP.08m04605

If I'm reading the abstract correctly (haven't dug up the whole paper), they gave people dextroamphetamine OR caffeine, but not both at once.

Importantly, these medications (dex or caffeine) were given WITH an SSRI or SNRI (and whatever else they might have been taking already). The reported response rates were impressive, but the study was very, very small (24 people total, 12 in each group), and there was no non-interventional control group (i.e., no one got a placebo, so we don't know whether people would have had similar improvement without any additional medications).

This seems odd to me. OCD is often regarded as an immune mediated dopamine receptor issue in the basal ganglia.

The dopamine issue here is that one dopamine receptor is stimulatory and the other is inhibitory-- so a boost of dopamine alone via stimulants would increase the drive to both the stimulatory and the inhibitory pathways- and caffeine would work through a totally different mechanism.
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Old 07-14-18, 03:02 PM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

I take Dex, and I love coffee. That being said, that mixture sounds like the recipe for a terrible day to me...
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Old 07-24-18, 11:47 AM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

I don't believe it was mentioned if both substances were taken all at once but either in split dosages. I would have to look for that study.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyhound1 View Post
I find Dex. and Adderall to be quite helpful with OCD. I find mixing it with a large amount of caffeine throughout the day to cause major anxiety and can lead to OCD. A large amount of caffeine for me is about 100 mg but spread out thru the day.

I wouldn’t ever consider taking 30 mg of Dex and then chase it with 300 mg of caffeine. I would probably become more OCD and obsessed from worrying about having a heart attack.

Please post the study if you can. I would be interested in reading it. It seems far fetched and dangerous to me.
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Old 07-24-18, 11:49 AM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

so why are you taking it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky1 View Post
I take Dex, and I love coffee. That being said, that mixture sounds like the recipe for a terrible day to me...
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  #9  
Old 07-24-18, 01:56 PM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

Other studies have shown that OCD causes are issues in the GABA receptor; other studies have mentioned the NMDA. It's news to me that the dopamine receptor could also be in the mix.

https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/778119_6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunga Dorji View Post
This seems odd to me. OCD is often regarded as an immune mediated dopamine receptor issue in the basal ganglia.

The dopamine issue here is that one dopamine receptor is stimulatory and the other is inhibitory-- so a boost of dopamine alone via stimulants would increase the drive to both the stimulatory and the inhibitory pathways- and caffeine would work through a totally different mechanism.
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Old 07-24-18, 02:00 PM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

I think that's it, but what they're really saying is that "in comparison to" the other treatments for OCD (?) that dextroamphetamine and caffeine were effective but needs further research?

"Psychostimulants increase catecholamine neurotransmission. In a double-blind RCT of dextroamphetamine (30 mg/day) and caffeine (300 mg/day) in partial responders/nonresponders to SSRIs/serotonin–norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (n = 24), around 50% of the patients showed improvement within the first week of treatment, and the scores improved over the study period.[92] The finding suggests that psychostimulant augmentation can cause a rapid improvement in OCD, but it needs replication before further use.

https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/778119_7

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post
I think I found the study baical was referring to -- is it this one?
Koran LM, E Aboujaoude, NN Gamel. Double-Blind Study of Dextroamphetamine Versus Caffeine Augmentation for Treatment-Resistant Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. J Clin Psychiatry 2009;70(11):1530-1535. 10.4088/JCP.08m04605

If I'm reading the abstract correctly (haven't dug up the whole paper), they gave people dextroamphetamine OR caffeine, but not both at once.

Importantly, these medications (dex or caffeine) were given WITH an SSRI or SNRI (and whatever else they might have been taking already). The reported response rates were impressive, but the study was very, very small (24 people total, 12 in each group), and there was no non-interventional control group (i.e., no one got a placebo, so we don't know whether people would have had similar improvement without any additional medications).
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Old 07-24-18, 02:14 PM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

I'm not sure the study were using coffee as a source of caffeine but perhaps OTC caffeine powder or prescription (I've heard this actually exists!). I don't drink coffee as I found its caffeine to feel like a dirty "stimulant" than say green tea or other caffeinated sources (my other fav is Yerba Mate). Some stimulants just feel cleaner than others. I think dextroamphetamine is smoother than Adderall. You get my gist?

Quote:
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I take Dex, and I love coffee. That being said, that mixture sounds like the recipe for a terrible day to me...
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Old 07-24-18, 02:20 PM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

That's because your source of caffeine is Starbucks?

There was a quote on a Vyvanse pamphlet that amphetamines work paradoxically; a dose lower than 3 mg may be more dangerous than 300 mg. Something like that, I'm paraphrasing.

The dose suggestion for Desoxyn is about 20-25 mg daily, yet people who were on it have indicated that 70 mg is the magic dose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyhound1 View Post
I find Dex. and Adderall to be quite helpful with OCD. I find mixing it with a large amount of caffeine throughout the day to cause major anxiety and can lead to OCD. A large amount of caffeine for me is about 100 mg but spread out thru the day.

I wouldn’t ever consider taking 30 mg of Dex and then chase it with 300 mg of caffeine. I would probably become more OCD and obsessed from worrying about having a heart attack.

Please post the study if you can. I would be interested in reading it. It seems far fetched and dangerous to me.
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Old 07-24-18, 03:02 PM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

for the record, I usually only have one carafe of coffee in the morning, then I switch to water.
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Old 08-09-18, 08:58 PM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by baical View Post
That's because your source of caffeine is Starbucks?

There was a quote on a Vyvanse pamphlet that amphetamines work paradoxically; a dose lower than 3 mg may be more dangerous than 300 mg. Something like that, I'm paraphrasing.

The dose suggestion for Desoxyn is about 20-25 mg daily, yet people who were on it have indicated that 70 mg is the magic dose.
I’m probably one of the few that can honestly say, I’ve never been to one. Not like they aren’t everywhere but I’m not a coffee or tea fan. When I need caffeine, I dew the dew. Thankfully, getting off Teva Adderall has really helped with that.

I’m more concerned with the effects of a large dose of caffeine in a short period of time. Young healthy people have been dying and having heart issues from caffeine and the herbal stimulants in “Energy’s Drinks”. 400 mg. of caffeine is considered a day’s worth for a healthy adult.

I was referring to taking 300 mg. of caffeine at one time together with an amphetamine is what scares me.
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Old 08-10-18, 01:53 AM
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Re: has 30 mg dextroamphetamine with 300 mg caffeine helped your OCD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by baical View Post
Other studies have shown that OCD causes are issues in the GABA receptor; other studies have mentioned the NMDA. It's news to me that the dopamine receptor could also be in the mix.

https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/778119_6

Yes that surprised me as well, however the association was made between OCD and PANDAS Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorder associated with Streptococci).
One of the presentations of this problem is acute onset OCD (65% of affected children)
http://www.pandasppn.org/ppn-pandas-...ic-guidelines/


pandasnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Dopamine-related_autoimmune_encephalitis.pdf

They can develop specific antibodies to D1 and D2 receptors, and the differential can have effects on switching behaviours.
There are also cholinergic antibodies.

However the D1 and D2 receptors are associated with a different balance of the stop response or the go response in the basal ganglia, so that is relevant to the OCD behaviours ( which can be viewed as a selective failure to inhibit a behaviour).

So that is interesting when we consider that SSRIs work best for symptom control in OCD. Stimulants may well worsen the problem in some cases because they are accentuating a pre-existing imbalance between D1 and D2.

So it may be that the SSRIs are affecting the balance of the system by a completely different mechanism.

It makes it easier to see that the main mode of action of a drug may give a false impression as to the pathology.
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