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Old 11-03-10, 05:27 PM
Julian05 Julian05 is offline
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Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Meds

So, there are the side effects everyone notices from the drugs, and then there are others. There is lots of research out there, and it is good research (not scientolagy propaganda), which suggests that a lot of psychiatric drugs cause brain changes and cognitive decline over time. (I'll post links to some of the papers at the end of this post...so hold your horses).


This turned out really long...but I really hope try and read it, even though It might be hard with all the ADHD...I'm really trying to get a discussion started....and I think it is really important.


.Aside from the research showing that these drugs cause brain damage, I think it just makes sense. It really seems that any drug, that alters your cognition will cause brain damage over a long period of time. We are taught in school, and there is lots of research to back it up, that all street drugs, when taken over a long period, cause brain damage. In addition, alcholal, when taken over a long period of time does as well.


I'm not trying to scare people off drugs at all...I just would like to start a rational discussion about how to balance peoples needs to be medicated, with the possibibily, that over a period of time, these might be causing cognitive decline...indeed is it especially frightening for me, as someone who gets most of his self-worth, from intellectual pursuits of one sort or another.....I have no idea why this thing sounds like a ****ing term paper....it's so funny, depending on what type of post you sometimes write, you get can start to sound so pretentious....whatever....I'm going to try and sound less pretentious in the rest of this thing.


Okay, for the actual side effects. First off, the anti-psychotic drugs are the worst offenders. There is reams of data which show they those drugs cause awful changes in the brain, over a long period of time. Seriously, in lower animals, and in humans. They cause shrinking of the prefrontal lobe, they get most of their job done by slowly destroying your pre-frontal lobe. The research suggests that there is a strong correlation between how much you take the drugs and how much your pre-frontal lobe shrinks!
This is particularly disconcerting, as the pre-frontal lobe is the seat of all your higher intelligence!
Here are some links:
http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/psychiatric-drugs/antipsychotics/neuroleptic-brain-damage.


This brain shrinkage is not from the mental illness itself, the studies are too well done for that...this is well documented, and actually from the medication. Whenever I talk to a pyschiatrist about this, he flat out denies it...when I show him the papers, he says the studies were not well done, not published in psychiatric journals (when they were), ect. Ect. Ect.


For the anti-psychotic drugs, I think the solution for people who primarily have ADHD/anxiety/depression is to simply get off them right away! This is not the grey area. These drugs are often prescribed for ADHD/anxiety/depression to calm the mind...stabilize you...but there are many other drugs which can do that..SSRIs, ect, ect, ect. Often these drugs are used as a first resort for people with this type of mental illness, when they should be the last...we really don't need these drugs, as we are not delusional, psychotic, and the like.


So, that's easy...What's harder, is that drugs for ADHD, and anxiety depression, are also supposed to cause brain damage. Though you will be pleased to note that these are far less severe than the effects of antipsychotics, and there is less evidence to support them. First off, while the stimulants do not make cause you to slowly lose your mental abilities, they are supposed to cause permanent brain changes over time which actually make your brain more depressed, more anxious, and actually make it harder for you to focus.
Here is the link for this.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-8211049-ritalin-may-cause-damage-to-brains.do
http://healthlifeandstuff.com/2009/08/is-stimulant-treatment-for-adhd-safe/




Great...now I'm writing in Blue, what the hell? Aww well....I didn't seem to be able to dig up as many comprehensive reports on ADHD meds, but I think there is some evidence there, and I have found more earlier...I can dig up some more eventually.....plus I think it just makes sense that ADHD meds would cause permant brain damage...they are related to the ilegal street drug stimulants, such as crack, cocaine, and speed.....though giving children ritalin is not the same thing as giving them crack, as anti-drug activists will claim...the drugs still are rather similar, and it does make sense that over a long period of time, these could cause brain damage.


And SSRIs.....There are several books on the subject of SSRIs and brain damage. Here's the one I read:http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Depressant-Fact-Book-Doctor-Prozac/dp/073820451X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1288819185&sr=8-1
It is very good, and not full of hyperbole, but many studies that show over time that this medcations may cause cognitive decline....though on a far less severe scale than the antipsychotics.




But here's the rub....whenever you read these books, articles, at the end, some well meaning anti-psychiatric activist (who himself has probably never experienced mental illness in his life), will tell you, that instead of using the pills, you should get on a good diet, do cbt, do neurofeedback, exersize, do acupuncture, become more social, be good to yourself, or take some chinese herbs.


Well, I've done all that ****, and from my personal experience, as well as the experience of people I know, that **** doesn't work at all! You know that works, the pills that destroy your brain! Those help.


There is no way I would have been able to write this whole thing out in one sitting, where I not medicated.....So what's your opinion on all this? Be sure to tell me?


And have any of you noticed a cognitive decline after years of taking psych meds, and if so, which ones? Noticed a decline in your creativity, sence of human, general intellengnce or anything like that?
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Old 11-03-10, 06:46 PM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

studies may show shrinkage due to antipsychotics,but, empirically,it's not common. Movement disorders and diabetes are the most common side effect from antipsychotics,and just an fyi..alcohol is way worse than ANY drug in the long term
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Old 11-03-10, 07:10 PM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

I've been on antidepressants and benzodiazepines on-and-off for 5 years, mood stabilisers for 3, and am starting stimulants.

Personally I wouldn't CARE if they DID cause a decline in my creativity, intelligence, etc. (not saying that they do, and have never seen any convincing evidence to this effect)

I'd rather be happy & stupid.
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Old 11-03-10, 07:22 PM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

Corpus Callosum Anatomy in Chronically Treated and Stimulant Nave ADHD. (2010) Journal of Attention Disorders.

Abstract

Objective: To determine the effect of chronic stimulant treatment on corpus callosum (CC) size in children with ADHD using volumetric and area measurements. Previously published research indicated possible medication effects on specific areas of the CC. Method: Measurements of the CC from anatomical MRIs were obtained from children aged 9-16 in three diagnostic groups (a) chronically treated ADHD, (b) stimulant-nave ADHD, and (c) typically developing children. Results: The three groups did not differ in overall CC volume. Additional analyses found differences in the area of the splenium, with the treatment-nave group exhibiting the smallest area. Conclusions: Previously reported reductions of CC size in ADHD samples do not appear to be a result of chronic stimulant treatment. The current study suggested a trend toward normalization of splenium size for participants treated with stimulant medication.

No reason to think that brain damage comes of long term ritalin treatments.
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Old 11-03-10, 07:59 PM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

Regrettfully I don't have anything in print, I did see an interview as part of the documentary This Emotional Life, on just this issue. I would have to do massive digging to find the name of th scientist... but he was doing performing studies that indicate the exact opposite of what you are espousing. His assertion was that anti depressants, in fact, have a protective effect on the brains of those suffering from long term, chronic depression.

My experience indicates an opposite effect as well. I am able to learn and retrieve information much more effectively. It doesn't make sense for my cognition to improve, and later decline again??? Even if that is the case, I'll take this time of clarity over being trapped in my head like I was!
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Old 11-03-10, 08:08 PM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

<-------------9 years on a stimulant and getting smarter all the time.

It just corrects neurochemical imbalances in the brain - that's not harmful to brains that need correction.
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Old 11-03-10, 08:26 PM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

Very little detail is given about the study described in your second link, aside from it being on rats, not humans. I think the key line from the article is this one:
Quote:
The Royal College of Paediatrics said: 'Ritalin has been used for 40 years. If there was a long-term side-effect, it would have been discovered by now.'
The second link goes to a site with the motto "We explain complex medical stuff" and it's hardly conclusive in its statements on stimulants causing brain damage:
Quote:
Do stimulants cause brain damage? Maybe.


Studies in rats have shown that extremely high doses of amphetamines given over a short period of time cause serious damage to the production of dopamine and its transport in the brain. This happens by causing build up of radicals and reactive oxygen species. Methylphenidate, or Ritalin, does not cause this damage, possibly because it only blocks the receptors for reception of dopamine.
But what about normal use?


The rats did not experience neural changes or damage from doses in the normal range. The news isn’t all good, though. Baboons and monkeys, however, did experience brain damage at normal doses, showing a significant reduction in natural production and handling of dopamine.
I note that it lists sources, but the links are not active, at least on my browser, so they can't be checked for accuracy. Even if sources were provided, I don't find this particularly alarming, as people have been taking these medication for decades without ill effect. (I know someone who's been taking them for close to 50 years. I've been taking them for around 15) That being the case, a study showing that they may harm animals seems more likely indicative of a difference between how the medication affects humans and the animals in question.

And then we have the book....knew the author before I clicked it: Breggin is not, in my opinion, a reputable expert, and his views are most definitely not representative of the psychiatric profession, or to the best of my knowledge, supported by any real body of research.
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Old 11-03-10, 08:26 PM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

Ritalin is actually Neuroprotective.
(protects nervous system cells from damage or death).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701286/



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Old 11-04-10, 01:39 AM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

Written by APSJ (Good post by the way)
Quote:
The Royal College of Paediatrics said: 'Ritalin has been used for 40 years. If there was a long-term side-effect, it would have been discovered by now.'
To add on to that, Methylphenidate (Ritalin) has actually been around for over 50 years and Amphetamine (Adderall and such) over 70. So far no serious long term effects have been found when taken as directed.

Quote:
And then we have the book....knew the author before I clicked it: Breggin is not, in my opinion, a reputable expert, and his views are most definitely not representative of the psychiatric profession, or to the best of my knowledge, supported by any real body of research.
Breggin is a Scientologist. Also Breggin is no longer considered by many courts as an expert on ADHD. Not only should anything Breggin says be taken with a grain of salt, it should have the whole box poured on it.

I don't get negative often but when it comes to Scientology, Breggin and ADHD I do not feel a sense of restraint. Their fear tactics have caused so many not to get the help they need.

So Julian05, as in all things be cautious, especially medication, but I would not be too concerned about this at least not until some legitimate evidence indicates a problem. Right now, there doesn't seem to be any.

Dizfriz
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Old 11-04-10, 02:07 AM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

Good topic though. To reiterate, there is no evidence whatsoever that Ritalin or Dextroamphetamine causes brain damage or blunts creativity (I find the opposite effect).

Further, do you know why they're called anti-psychotics? Because that's the first use they found for the drug.

The thinking "I am not psychotic, therefore I would not benefit from a drug classed as an anti-psychotic" is wrong headed. I am not psychotic, but I benefited hugely from a low dose of quetiapine (Seroquel) because it stopped the racing thoughts that were stopping me from sleeping.

Glad to see people relying more on evidence and less on those snap judgements we call opinions
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Old 11-04-10, 04:11 AM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
This turned out really long...but I really hope try and read it, even though It might be hard with all the ADHD...I'm really trying to get a discussion started....and I think it is really important.
Yeah you and ten other people a year. . .. The darn search engine here hates me so I will give ya a leg up here and simply link you to my google search of these forums which should generate more than a few previous discussion of similar subject complete with same accusations - Perhaps it will illuminate the cause behind my less than enthusiastic opening response.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
….Aside from the research showing that these drugs cause brain damage, I think it just makes sense. It really seems that any drug, that alters your cognition will cause brain damage over a long period of time. We are taught in school, and there is lots of research to back it up, that all street drugs, when taken over a long period, cause brain damage. In addition, alcholal, when taken over a long period of time does as well.
I do not use drugs I take medication - although any thing that has an effect on the body can have a bad one prescription drugs are only one possible cause - Other causes of bad reactions are foods , including but not limited to all natural, pollens naturally produced by plants in for procreation purposes, animal dander, herbal supplements, sun light, ect. . .




Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
I'm not trying to scare people off drugs at all...I just would like to start a rational discussion about how to balance peoples needs to be medicated, with the possibibily, that over a period of time, these might be causing cognitive decline...indeed is it especially frightening for me, as someone who gets most of his self-worth, from intellectual pursuits of one sort or another.....I have no idea why this thing sounds like a ****ing term paper....it's so funny, depending on what type of post you sometimes write, you get can start to sound so pretentious....whatever....I'm going to try and sound less pretentious in the rest of this thing.
Scare off people

Surely you did not think you were going to be uncontested in your claims did ya! Any one who can get through your post will be able to understand my rebuttal.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
Okay, for the actual side effects. First off, the anti-psychotic drugs are the worst offenders. There is reams of data which show they those drugs cause awful changes in the brain, over a long period of time. Seriously, in lower animals, and in humans. They cause shrinking of the prefrontal lobe, they get most of their job done by slowly destroying your pre-frontal lobe. The research suggests that there is a strong correlation between how much you take the drugs and how much your pre-frontal lobe shrinks!
Before even beginning to take you seriously I need the original clinical data. I mean the original stuff written by the researchers themselves in the long version technical jargon included. We have several here including myself who can read scientific jargon without a problem

The above is like telling me drinking coffee will cause an increase in heart rate - Well how many milligrams over what length of time produced how much of an increase in heart rate, at what activity level and for how long, age difference ect ect ect - Your claims are generalized and unsubstantiated and we are in the scientific section where we can ask for scientific data to all claims thereof.

As a warm up exercise in my rebuttal -

Association Between Decline in Brain Dopamine Activity With Age and Cognitive and Motor Impairment in Healthy Individuals

Age-related decreases in brain dopamine activity are associated with a decline in motor function and may also contribute to impaired performance on tasks that involve frontal brain regions. Interventions that enhance dopamine activity may improve performance and quality of life for the elderly. The fact that correlations remained significant after age effects were partialed out suggests that dopamine activity may influence motor and cognitive performance irrespective of age.

ADHD medications increase available dopamine or increase your production there of now lets see what you can do with this study - It is a full length.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
This is particularly disconcerting, as the pre-frontal lobe is the seat of all your higher intelligence!
Here are some links:
http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/psychiatric-drugs/antipsychotics/neuroleptic-brain-damage.
Mind freedom is an anti-psychiatry organization so posting this is like posting the vegan community's over view on the safest meet preparation methods.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
This brain shrinkage is not from the mental illness itself, the studies are too well done for that...this is well documented, and actually from the medication. Whenever I talk to a pyschiatrist about this, he flat out denies it...when I show him the papers, he says the studies were not well done, not published in psychiatric journals (when they were), ect. Ect. Ect.
Well some shrinkage is due to natural aging - mental illness, medication use not withstanding.


Source two

Memory Changes in Older Adults

As the brain changes, so does behavior. And so, given that blood flow drops the most in the frontal cortex, people most commonly experience declines in verbal fluency, or the ability to find the words they want. They also have to work harder at "executive function," planning and organizing their activities. The areas most affected after that include the parietal cortex, which affects construction and visuomotor performance (practice that golf swing!), and the medial temporal area, which affects the ability to make new long-term memories and think flexibly.

~Underlining added by me~

So decline happens any way therefore a age match comparison and some sort of blinding to prevent bias is necessary




Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
For the anti-psychotic drugs, I think the solution for people who primarily have ADHD/anxiety/depression is to simply get off them right away! This is not the grey area. These drugs are often prescribed for ADHD/anxiety/depression to calm the mind...stabilize you...but there are many other drugs which can do that..SSRIs, ect, ect, ect. Often these drugs are used as a first resort for people with this type of mental illness, when they should be the last...we really don't need these drugs, as we are not delusional, psychotic, and the like.
Please do not insult my intelligence with scare tactics - I think the solution is for people to learn how to spot propaganda on the internet and arm themselves with the ability to tell the difference between legit facts and BS so they can make up their own minds.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
So, that's easy...What's harder, is that drugs for ADHD, and anxiety depression, are also supposed to cause brain damage. Though you will be pleased to note that these are far less severe than the effects of antipsychotics, and there is less evidence to support them. First off, while the stimulants do not make cause you to slowly lose your mental abilities, they are supposed to cause permanent brain changes over time which actually make your brain more depressed, more anxious, and actually make it harder for you to focus.
Here is the link for this.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...e-to-brains.do

http://healthlifeandstuff.com/2009/0...for-adhd-safe/
Link one is about some conservative UK politicians opinion - if politics were not a restricted topic in these parts . . .. . .. suffice to say I would NOT look to a politician for medical advice!


The second link is to some all natural site promoting food health. There is nothing wrong with a healthy diet but they have there own reason for discouraging use of prescription medications - I think a good diet is essential but I would still be ADHD Last link = we are back to asking vegans about meat preparations . .. . .




Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
.I didn't seem to be able to dig up as many comprehensive reports on ADHD meds, but I think there is some evidence there, and I have found more earlier...I can dig up some more eventually.....plus I think it just makes sense that ADHD meds would cause permant brain damage...they are related to the ilegal street drug stimulants, such as crack, cocaine, and speed.....though giving children ritalin is not the same thing as giving them “crack”, as anti-drug activists will claim...the drugs still are rather similar, and it does make sense that over a long period of time, these could cause brain damage.
Well gold and lead are probably even more similar . .. . do ya think they are really the same thing???? If some author of a book or web site told you that lead is a lot like gold therefore they are the same are you going to buy it???

Chemistry is chemistry and it is a lot like pregnancy = almost does not count.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
And SSRIs.....There are several books on the subject of SSRIs and brain damage. Here's the one I read:http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Depressan...8819185&sr=8-1
ALWAYS check the history and connections of any author writing a book - Peter Breggin is a freaking $cierntologist



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Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
It is very good, and not full of hyperbole, but many studies that show over time that this medications may cause cognitive decline....though on a far less severe scale than the antipsychotics.

Any thing Breggin writes is best saved for those times when you are really short of toilet paper or in need of lining for the bird cage





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Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
But here's the rub....whenever you read these books, articles, at the end, some well meaning anti-psychiatric activist (who himself has probably never experienced mental illness in his life), will tell you, that instead of using the pills, you should get on a good diet, do cbt, do neurofeedback, exersize, do acupuncture, become more social, be good to yourself, or take some chinese herbs.
Although some thing may work for some people the results are small compared to the effectiveness of medications - Remember no one kicks a dead dog - If medication was so ineffective then these "all natural" prepositions would not need to spread scare tactics and lies in order to sale their products

The one or two non-pharmaceutical approaches I have not been able to shoot holes when reading their research does not waste one second on anti-medication propaganda. They do not claim to be more effective for ADHD matter of fact they talk about training the brain to increase selective attention but the folks did not mention ADD specifically - Naturally the damn thing was expensive as hell and was related to bio-feed back.

In other words if the alternate treatment uses scare tactics to promote themselves chances are high they are full of crap




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Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
Well, I've done all that ****, and from my personal experience, as well as the experience of people I know, that **** doesn't work at all! You know that works, the pills that destroy your brain! Those help.
and the only claims that the medication cause brain damage I have just shot into the ground on principle alone.




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Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
There is no way I would have been able to write this whole thing out in one sitting, where I not medicated.....So what's your opinion on all this? Be sure to tell me?
Not a problem I even included why I think what I do.
Like learning to remove your colored text in my quotes I was not born knowing how to do these things. It took time and effort to learn how to research claims and learn how to sort the crap from the cream.




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Originally Posted by Julian05 View Post
And have any of you noticed a cognitive decline after years of taking psych meds, and if so, which ones? Noticed a decline in your creativity, sence of human, general intellengnce or anything like that?
Do I act **cking brain damaged to you??? I have been taking ADD medications sense 1993 {18 years and I am in my late 40's}
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Old 11-04-10, 07:33 AM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

*off topic* I want to know what Mead is taking, cause I am in absolute awe of her focus!

ok, carry on....
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Old 11-04-10, 08:58 AM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

If Breggin thinks ADHD medications are bad he should look into this.

Dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO):

* is called "hydroxyl acid", the substance is the major component of acid rain.
* contributes to the "greenhouse effect".
* may cause severe burns.
* contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
* accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
* may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
* has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.
* even small amounts ingested into the lungs can result in death.
* Associated with dangerous reduction in electrolytes in the body when used to excess.
* Strong correlation between long term use over many years with physical deterioration, memory loss and eventually death.
* Exposure has been shown in every case of ADHD studied.

Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:

* as an industrial solvent and coolant.
* in nuclear power plants.
* in the production of styrofoam.
* as a fire retardant.
* in many forms of cruel animal research.
* in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
* as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.

You can find more about this terrible substance at:
http://www.snopes.com/science/dhmo.asp

An interesting parallel with the tactics of Scientology's crusade against ADHD medications.

Dizfriz
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Old 11-04-10, 03:31 PM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

Dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO)

In case someone is not familiar with this, Dihydrogen monoxide is plain ol water (H2O).

I forgot to put it in the post....Oops!

It think it is a very good parody on scare tactics. Several towns, to their embarrassment, attempted to ban this substance without checking it out. Sound familiar?

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Old 11-07-10, 04:34 AM
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Re: Cognitive Decline and Brain Damage: A Potential Long-Term Side Effect To Psych Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizfriz View Post
Dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO)

In case someone is not familiar with this, Dihydrogen monoxide is plain ol water (H2O).

I forgot to put it in the post....Oops!

It think it is a very good parody on scare tactics. Several towns, to their embarrassment, attempted to ban this substance without checking it out. Sound familiar?

Dizfriz
LAMO!! Too funny

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Originally Posted by Impetus View Post
*off topic* I want to know what Mead is taking, cause I am in absolute awe of her focus!

ok, carry on....
Adderall ir - 20mg every 4-5 hours I am awake not to exceed 5 doses - average 80mg a day work days 40mg on my days off - Oh as a non-pharmacological approach a bit of annoyance used in a productive manner.
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