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  #31  
Old 09-09-10, 01:18 PM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

quote=qinkin;938232
Quote:
The economic-based hierarchy hinders social development... ...
Chasing the wrong ideals.

Can't be a personal winner in current World 'economics' as well as part of a collective winning team in 'social'.

~s~
Quote:
South-Korean born Dr Chang aims to disprove what he sees as economic myths, including the idea that people are paid what they are worth, that the "trickle down" effect of increasing wealth among the rich helps the poor ... ... ...
Good stuff.
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  #32  
Old 09-09-10, 01:22 PM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

This is interesting isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SB
What's worth doing* really does not appear to be What'$** worth doing.
"Appearances to the mind are of four kinds->>>

Things either are what they appear to be;
or they neither are, nor appear to be;
or they are, and do not appear to be;
or they are not, and yet appear to be.

Rightly to aim in all these cases is the wise man's task."
-- Epictetus (c. 60 AD)
-- Discourses, Book i, Chap. xxvii


What would be the implications of demonizing state authoritarianism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sb
This transition from

exclusively self-serving
->- to ->-
an all-encompassing, mutually self-serving
Ya, that's a very large part of it, I notice more and more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob black wiki
He responds to the view that "work," if not simply effort or energy, is necessary to get important but unpleasant tasks done, by claiming that first of all, most important tasks can be rendered ludic, or "salvaged" by being turned into game-like and craft-like activities, and secondly that the vast majority of work does not need doing at all.
AWESOME.
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  #33  
Old 09-09-10, 01:46 PM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

There is a game within the game. This is where people who live in monetarily wealthy societies don't have gainful employment but are subsidized by the state. It is woeful to see people in meaningless work and makes me weary thinking about getting a second job but I do know at the end of the day it is about survival of the fittest. If you want more money you will pay dearly with your essence, with your humanity and your reason fr being. For the most part I just BE but then again I am a rarity these days and know my brothers do not have the luxury of having a mental disability.
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  #34  
Old 09-09-10, 05:38 PM
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Post Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Well, I could stroke you guys 'til kindgom come, on how much the input is appreciated.

For this post I'd like to focus on the Scientific Method aspect of this thread. I ran into a real good video on the Z forums.

Biased and Skewed Views in Science Thread


Quote:
at the end of the day it is about survival of the fittest.
Yes, but if you have already produced offspring, your fitness of survival became secondary, to your child's. . Based on my second hand logic..

I mean, though.. Thinking on the level of biological extended family, every other human primarily and all secondarily the rest of life is included.. We feed off of one another, in this reality we find ourselves in. That is of inhabiting w/in the same life cycle system on Earth.

  • Can we really rely on any $ influenced decision?
  • I doubt that it ($) is intelligent enough... I don't doubt that mankind is intelligent enough.
  • A ($) based decision is imaginary conservation of energy/selection. Makes the value system of this particular currency highly subjected to fraudulent behavior, and unlawful decision.
  • Compared to a non-$ system of economic environment. Or no direct $ influence of behavior, direction of any kind.

Seems to be what is favorable.. More bias-proof methods.


Australia's own Commonwealth Bank..is this an exception to my heavily biased-USA-born and raised point of perspective?

Finding a way for more just-equal distribution, non-debt based.



+_+_+_++
Quote:
JFK, like Lincoln in the 1860's. dared to have the U. S.
Treasury issue U. S. Dollars, not Federal Reserve notes, and
placed them into circulation without paying interest to any
bankers, just as spelled out in the U. S. Constitution
both.
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  #35  
Old 09-10-10, 04:19 AM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by qinkin View Post
highly subjected to fraudulent behavior...
Yesterday ++'s brother (dyslexic) lost 1300 euros to a professional thief on Ebay (just found this) -
- the same people.

A little while ago we lost this amount of money to a builder's Estimate which was made to look like a Quotation.

Illegal scam; legal scam -
whatever

- as long as there's money and people do not believe in the true worth of their endeavours and substitute this higher social reward with the lesser materialistic reward of trying to get as much as possible for their exclusive $elves ... ... ...

- as long as there's money and the human drive to 'distinguish' oneself from others by bank balance -
- it'll be close to impossible to produce an economic system which corrects the underlying problem.

The underlying problem relates to the psychological makeup of man
- where the problem (human corruption - an attribute of the developing mind) can only be countered by the individual understanding the problem (the all important first stage in the completion of development of the mind).

An understanding of morality (having climbed the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil) renders the mind which understands complete and incapable (by~its-own~novel~definition) of corrupt behaviour.

A fully open exclusively electronic global currency or two - fully separated (for individual (one~wage to limit individual virulence) and corporation use (an ecological currency to limit corporate virulence))
--- would help to eliminate the bank or any robbery (no more physical money),
--- help to eliminate electronic theft of money (1 bank balance per person),
--- would eliminate tax evasion and money 'laundering' (every financial transaction is visible and labelled for all to see),
--- corporation-backed risks eliminated (separation between the corporate eco- and the individual's allowance (currency) (an end to incentive culture)).

So - a single wage [public system] for all to spend (on choice yielded from a sustainable global eco-system [private system])
- which takes away the financial impediment which serves to prevent people from choosing what they'd actually like to do.
- a single wage which takes away the lesser reward $ystem and which replaces it with the prospect of embracing a higher ideal ... ... supportive of the transition which occurs with development of mind
- from exclusively $elfish ->- social mindset.

The sculptor who became my wife's unhappy denti$t.

We're discovering that everything we want can be ours for next to no money - and need an economic system which reflects that reality - and not the reality which people are force-fed on the radio, television, movie and advertising campaigns of you are what you own.

Believe you are what you own and one constructs a barrier between ourself and happiness; the barrier becomes more difficult to overcome as the individual pursues physical world $tuff.

~*~

Next ... ... ...

A global University network as the research wing of A global private Industry.
--- both fully open

No more patents, of course; no more secrecy; no more competition.

No research is transferred into development unless it's sustainable.

The fully distributed global University network means that all Universities are rendered the same.

~*~

Identification of the very few onerous tasks which we're required to perform - building and farming, predominantly -
- and teaching the full range of these skills in school to *everybody* who performs their share each week -
won't take much of our time, hopefully.


So ... ... ...
- all human physiological needs (housing,heat,food) met by all people working together - skills learnt in school retained by regular practice.

This stage is all we actually *need* to survive happily.


The rest of the suggestions above are simply there to generate as large a sustainable, fun set of things to do - for people to choose from.

The pattern in evolution of the
rodent olfactory bulb -> human cerebral cortex
or from
external world (chemistry --- taste,smell) -> internal world (informational relay --- hearing,sight) is strongly suggestive of the path which we're likely to tread.

~*~

Increased quality (sound,image,fun) of informational relay.

At last a world in prospect where we can celebrate instead of bemoan the presence of each additional individual who's born unto the planet.
A collaborative environment to match the fundamentally collaborative environment which defines the mechanistic operation of the human mind (the holonomic model, Bohm and Pribram).
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  #36  
Old 09-10-10, 04:43 AM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

So - Summarising - what do we want from an economics ?

[ A ] Human beings need to have their physiological needs met.
--- the bit above about building/farming skills to all performed co-operatively.
Can be performed without money if we require.

[ B ] Need to have their psychological needs met.
--- the education part above.

[ C ] Need to be allowed to fall into the spiritual state.

[ D ] Need to build something of worth for future generations.
--- the sustainable private sector.
Perhaps the most pressing need for money - to force sustainability upon the system, so that we operate within our means.

So - Summarising - what do we want from an economics ?

We want a 'something' which permits [ D ] whilst protecting our eco-n om(sytem) -ics from actually our rapacious, primitive, lower selves
- which doesn't get in the way of [ A-C ] availability for all.
[ A - C ] is enough, after all - is enough if we can't agree to work together (globally, as equals).

The human mind has the capacity to imagine outcomes which are not realistically feasible; the mind needs to be balanced (the purpose of scientific scrutiny) prior to deciding on a course of action -
the line between real and imaginary needs to be set within the mind of the individual
- otherwise -
lots of silly stuff - all bad - future generations wondering what we were thinking.
'Badly', is the answer, by virtue of an immature mind.
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  #37  
Old 09-10-10, 05:14 AM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Fair enough - but what's your problem ?

My problem is that [ C ] (the meditative state where the mind 'ups and away') is so much more pleasant than jumping through bureaucratic hoops
- the seemingly inevitable consequence of human beings working together -

my problem is that [ C ] can arise without money - through physical and mental endeavour alone -

- my problem is that once people are forced together into a system - that unless people understand the innate problem of man -
that nothing can work.

If everybody did understand the innate problem of man (of the developing mind having exclusively selfish worldly desires) - would our problems go away?

I'd like to see autonomous systems in place which look after themselves
- with minimal, if any human intervention.

But what if human beings want to intervene; all well and good as long as we don't make the mistakes of the last several thousand years and re-instate the 'expert'.
The expert and their esoteric knowledge of some necessary function of man.
The reason for the suggestion of why people need to cycle through the few tasks [ A ] which the species needs.

The virulent expert arises unnaturally - as does the submissive tendency to yield -
in the construction of a physical hierarchy (of man)
- where the higher principle here, which we're striving towards - is towards equality for all -
- an equality which cannot run alongside any such hierarchy.

I'd like to see autonomous systems in place which look after themselves
- with minimal, if any human intervention.
--- elegance,efficiency.

Easily manageable within the informational realm, less easily - though also still possible within classical manufacturing.

Generation of sustainable, robust, transparent, autonomous systems using a global research-development meta-University :-) structure.

Happy now :-)

Needed the extra terms - systems which improve our lot - which we understand and which can be left unattended, whilst we attend to our human need for communion with our own divin -ity.

~*~

The linear mind and its linear vocal cords do not permit waking hour meditation.
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  #38  
Old 09-10-10, 07:06 AM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Sorry haven't nailed it yet -
- what do we want from economics?

A system which assists all individuals towards attaining a sense of worth.

So - we're going to need to work out what makes an individual feel valued.

Valued - if the individual feels as though he's done something worthwhile; an inner sense of reward.
That inner sense of reward becomes the spiritual state (the ultimate reward) -
where the inner sense of reward from proper behaviour gives way to the serene dream
- Judaism's promised land within upon opening the Torah to perception.

- that moral behaviour (behaviours which represent the most logical scientific approach for ensuring the best for ALL of the species) ... ...

- that through moral behaviour (the reason why all religions (schools which teach morality (morality - a mind which knows and exerts behaviours which represent the most logical scientific approach for ensuring the best for ALL of the species)) are equally valid paths to the same de~s~erenetination).
referencing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna

- that through an enquiry into morality (striving to understand/become and thereafter becoming moral)

- that striving - attaining an inner sense of reward (the warm glow inside) alongside the knowledge that one's actions are aligned with ALL of species benefit ... ...

- an environment which permits such striving as the first part of the journey to the spiritual state of freedom from worldly desires
- is what we want of economics.

Quote:
... ... what we want of economics
Definition of a permissive environment which permits development of the mind through morally scalable ventures -
towards
spirituality ... ... where there's nothing to get hung about,
because the unthinking mind-controlling addictive desires which prevent happiness through compulsion to be elsewhere,
are
lost.

To develop the eyes which see that the grass is just as green below one's feet
- wherever one's feet happen to be.

~*~

What do we want from economics ?

We're about to enter an era of {free,unlimited} power; what we want from economics is a framework which prevents human beings from destroying and helps human beings to enjoy ourselves.

on a planet in the middle of nowhere ... ...
... ... it would seem as though worrying about tax returns, our children attending the 'right' schools and our next car purchase

'd be worrying about a whole 'nother Hellish paradigm, a paradigm which the mind holds open an offer - to transcend.

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  #39  
Old 09-10-10, 11:11 AM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Arriving there, means criss-crossin'in to the solution..
_______________

Haha, you're brother lives in France, I take it?


Quote:
Hello, a small message to currently announce a fraudulent advertisement in small the yearEbay nuncios. : X An offer a priori enticing worked out, I think Baof the description of the machine of C3RS, Follow-up of forgery and coarse emails ebay Ben6…. of which the shipper is ebay
Transferer the emails spoof@ebay.fr for checking. You are warned….</petites-annonces@financier.com>
I've got some cousins there.. Just picked up this interesting phrase from facebook.. I have my notions as to why they live in France.. (from status of younger cousin)
Quote:
se réveille ce matin avec deuc mouches dans la bouche...
=awakes this morning with deuc flies in the mouth…

deuc I guess means 2)))lmao.. !! xD

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Anyway, so

Enforcement of the law. (does money help reinforce?)

I mean if it serves a viable purpose.. then ok.. but if it doesn't? It's got to be scientifically provable either way..


Does money REALLY do ANYTHING of societal benefit, that people don't already do when it's not influencing the physics of behavior?

Just from memory of TED conference talk from w/in the past month or so ah yes "Monkeynomics":
Monkeys were taught to use money (trading tokens for grapes).. They literally learned to prefer the seller who gives them more grapes for the same amount of tokens as the seller who gives less grapes.. And they began stealing each other's tokens as well..
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  #40  
Old 09-10-10, 12:20 PM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by qinkin View Post
Does money REALLY do ANYTHING of societal benefit, that people don't already do when it's not influencing the physics of behavior?
Quote:
Originally Posted by qinkin View Post
Just from memory of TED conference talk from w/in the past month or so ah yes "Monkeynomics":
Monkeys were taught to use money (trading tokens for grapes).. They literally learned to prefer the seller who gives them more grapes for the same amount of tokens as the seller who gives less grapes.. And they began stealing each other's tokens as well..
Remarkable stuff.

So stealing tokens is considered more acceptable than stealing grapes.

That'd relate to the abstraction of something of worth (grapes) into something without any worth (tokens) - to the brains of the monkey.

A way of evading morality - because since the tokens are worth nothing in and of themselves, stealing tokens which are worth nothing in and of themselves -
isn't really stealing - is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qinkin View Post
Does money REALLY do ANYTHING of societal benefit, that people don't already do when it's not influencing the physics of behavior?
Money is deeply irritating; it creates a vacuum of morality in which corrupt behaviour can thrive, because nobody's sure of the right thing to do.

A lawyer (as an example of an ultra-high paid profession which shouldn't exist) wouldn't steal the keys to a car which an individual needs to travel to work; though that's often what they do - courtesy of the shroud of money.

~*~

Co-operative working in the simplest systems which we can generate for supplying absolute human necessities (building/farming) such that payment is made by contributing time and effort.

An end to money for personal use.
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  #41  
Old 09-10-10, 12:52 PM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ View Post
An end to money for personal use.
To be honest - it'd be a relief.

The unrelenting drive to money, where you never can have enough.

Yay!
Quote:
Posts: 11,111
All the ones, onethy onety one
- evolution from monism through duality - 11, into trinity - 111.
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Old 09-10-10, 03:14 PM
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Arrow Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Quote:
All the ones, onethy onety one
- evolution from monism through duality - 11, into trinity - 111.
oK!!! lmao..

So you offered many alternative modes.. Many upon more.

If the system itself is dis-proven, therefore the mode of monetary reserve, at least Bank issuing notes w/interest, is smote across the tallest peak of the highest mountain, then R.I.P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sb
We're about to enter an era of {free,unlimited} power; what we want from economics is a framework which prevents human beings from destroying and helps human beings to enjoy ourselves.
<--What the emerging civilization could very well look like in part-->

Quote:
Originally Posted by SB
Co-operative working in the simplest systems which we can generate for supplying absolute human necessities (building/farming) such that payment is made by contributing time and effort.
W/o the virulent aspect, $ cannot exist, not even in philosophy, def not ethics, no one is born w/$ in the heart/mind... All it takes is a majority to end this.

Cease $ from being a motivating factor, in any respect.

If someone threatens your life for your wallet, then let them have it, and tell them your pin # as well.. .
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Old 09-10-10, 04:06 PM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by qinkin View Post
... then R.I.P?
... ... ... then RIP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qinkin View Post
Cease $ from being a motivating factor, in any respect.
Desist and away.
Quote:
If someone threatens your life for your wallet, then let them have it, and tell them your pin # as well.. .
'You know, you don't really exist'*

(I lettem' have it , lettem' have it straight)

* at least not with the level of permanence which you believed prior to demanding my pin number.

~*~

Money, everything to do with money's dull, we're capable of doing so much better.

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  #44  
Old 09-13-10, 03:27 PM
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Thumbs up Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Ok, just thinking, not really trying to.. I'm feeling responsible.

If the motivation to money causes so much pain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sb
The unrelenting drive to money, where you never can have enough.
Then that's B/c you can't feel it, can't even sense it, but $ insists upon existing (b/c the mind or someone's mind makes it so)..
(((((((
think Daniel Pink from 1st post)))))))
The physical brain, the physical body, the physical mind, the physical (bio)logical reality that is the mind. The situation creates a corporeal discordance.
Banknotes don't buy happiness ...

Just wondering what this link has to do w/$$$? Nothing much at all. . Yet offers a highly possible (low environmental impact) solution to the precious clean drinking water resource.. Yes?
http://www.kurzweilai.net/providing-...m_medium=email
ADD would become less of a problem if the gates to scientifically valid treatment weren't clenched up? People getting what they need, and individual needs, much less stigmatized. .

Of course life is transactional.. But there is a perversion going on in society that is about ready to be abandoned..Else society itself and the people themselves, be left-behind?
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  #45  
Old 09-13-10, 03:40 PM
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Re: Living & Motivation~Scientific-Method~Will~Monetary-Based-Economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by qinkin View Post
$$$
Quote:
Naishio is currently researching intellectual property opportunities and considering pursuing investment capital to further our research and pursue corporate and strategic partnerships. We have engaged patent attorneys to assist us in exploring development and aggregation of IP, and have had conversations with several interested parties regarding potential collaboration or investment.
~*~

Water is one of the 3 or 4 basic requirements which people have.

Patent attorneys are very definitely not one of those 3 or 4 basic requirements.

~*~

A world with money cannot get its priorities straight.

A global University network acting as research wing to a global University network development team could eradicate the bureaucratic financial leeches from our then functional, social landscape; we'd then do it, if, as a collective we decide that it's worth doing (which water, food, heat and information freely available to all, is)
- and we would do it well.
__________________
ADHD understood - simple matter of defining purpose (morality) of mind
See Stabile 'enforced moral consistency' ~15 years ago, nothing else since has been of any relevance to ADHD.
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