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  #31  
Old 11-19-17, 05:38 PM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by DeClutter View Post
That is in part because society has this image created for us that a relationship should be "perfect", that partners should be "perfect".

And we are NOT...

Relationships that are about "perfect" will always fail, as they are based on a lie.

Real people are imperfect, and the best relationships accept that, and see the being together as a way to grow, to learn from eachother.
Well yes, that's the logic again. But as you say, society has this image.

This image has a detrimental impact on a lot of men who then feel pressured into putting on this persona of perfection. Because they feel forever alone if they don't.

They can't beat the problem, so they become part of the problem instead.
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  #32  
Old 11-19-17, 06:02 PM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Well yes, that's the logic again. But as you say, society has this image.

This image has a detrimental impact on a lot of men who then feel pressured into putting on this persona of perfection. Because they feel forever alone if they don't.

They can't beat the problem, so they become part of the problem instead.
Quite right.

And this all plays out against a background where the old role models are fading away, just being a man that brings home the bacon, or holds a certain level of power isn't enough anymore. Woman have grown increasingly independant over the past centuries, and all for the better.

But new generations of men that were still brought up with the old role models are now clashing against the wall. This makes men insecure, and many of them grasp at straws to hold on, to find a new status quo or to fight it whatever way they can.
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  #33  
Old 11-20-17, 12:54 AM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Well yes, that's the logic again. But as you say, society has this image.

This image has a detrimental impact on a lot of men who then feel pressured into putting on this persona of perfection. Because they feel forever alone if they don't.

They can't beat the problem, so they become part of the problem instead.
Well, it's possible you don't understand.

Relationships are not about you or what YOU want, man, they're about the other person.

Until you figure that out, you're just going to do about as well as you've done so far. Men have become more and more entitled. It's not about your needs (not specifically you, though.. I mean generally.) That's how it works.

What do YOU have to offer another person? that should be the question to ask. If you haven't internalized relationships as being about giving--in the process, you should forget about receiving--then you need to fix that first. After that you should be able to honestly fill in your dating profile with accomplishments you're proud of, and demonstrate your ambition. It's very competitive out there; you'll need a good resume to have any chance at all. And if you can't be honest about it, work your way up the ladder--socially, academically, career-wise--until you have a better product for display. Only then you've earned a right to be there; and not before.

P.S. Again I'm not directing this toward anyone in this thread, but toward men in general :-)
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  #34  
Old 11-20-17, 01:07 AM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Society (or societies female population) deems it wrong for men to hold any sexual related thoughts at all.
this is inaccurate. i don't know any heterosexual women who thing it's "wrong" for men to hold any sexual related thoughts at all. on the contrary, most women want to have sex with their partners and would certainly like their partners to want to have sex with them.

there's also a moral judgment you attribute to "society's female population" that we deem it "wrong". maybe some fringe groups of women thing it's wrong to have sexual thoughts, but i assure you that's not the norm.

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Or that's been my own experience at least. One of the first things I get asked by women is if I ever have sex on the mind. So me being the outstanding honest chap that I am, I give them a straight and honest answer, which results either in abuse or an instant shut out.
if i got asked that question, i would assume the person asking had sex on the mind and was using it as some sort of awkward pick up line.

if someone is lame enough to ask that question and NOT admit to having sex on the mind (at least having sex on the mind about what sexiness is going down in yours), then i suggest you preemptively provide the shut out. that's a weird manipulative bait and switch game as i see it.

Quote:
Women say they like honest men. Do they secretly prefer men that lie?
no, i don't prefer men who lie. but i also don't ask questions i don't want the answer to or questions designed to set up the other person in a lose-lose situation (unless i wanted there to be no way they could win...which, if that's the case, why am i even talking to this person?)

if i know my close friend looks incredible in her outfit, i'm not going to set up my partner for failure by asking if he thinks she looks hot and then either be peeved he lied (because she clearly does) or get all insecure at hearing the honest response (because he told the objective truth). i don't think people should set up each other for failure and my asking such a lose-lose question would be designed to pick a fight of some sort, i guess.

to your question in the title, though, of course men are "allowed" to think about sex. women are also "allowed" sexual thoughts. what's not allowed is sexual harassment or assault, but those are behaviors, not thoughts.
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  #35  
Old 11-20-17, 04:09 AM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
this is inaccurate. i don't know any heterosexual women who thing it's "wrong" for men to hold any sexual related thoughts at all. on the contrary, most women want to have sex with their partners and would certainly like their partners to want to have sex with them.
Yes indeed. But i'm talking about the pre-partner stage. If a women asks a man an open question about sex, then surely he should be able to answer that question openly and honestly without instant negative judgement about every aspect of who he is.

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Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
there's also a moral judgment you attribute to "society's female population" that we deem it "wrong". maybe some fringe groups of women thing it's wrong to have sexual thoughts, but i assure you that's not the norm.
But again, i'm referring to the pre-partner stage. Are men supposed to lie in the beginning to lure women into a false sense of security, only for her to find out later that a lot of it was just made up bull**** to make her believe that he was any less typical of any other man?

I'd rather be honest right from the start and I should be able to do so without fear of judgement. If a women really wants to get to know who I am, then she'll find out from day one.

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Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
if i got asked that question, i would assume the person asking had sex on the mind and was using it as some sort of awkward pick up line.

if someone is lame enough to ask that question and NOT admit to having sex on the mind (at least having sex on the mind about what sexiness is going down in yours), then i suggest you preemptively provide the shut out. that's a weird manipulative bait and switch game as i see it.
Yes, this is my thinking as well, however if this is a common occurrence which it seems to be in my own personal experience at least. Then my chances of a successful encounter are severely limited based on this alone. Never mind every other stumbling block in the dating world.



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Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
no, i don't prefer men who lie. but i also don't ask questions i don't want the answer to or questions designed to set up the other person in a lose-lose situation (unless i wanted there to be no way they could win...which, if that's the case, why am i even talking to this person?)
Yes, this makes sense to me in a logical manner. However, what i'm learning rapidly is that the dating world doesn't work on a set of logical rules. When I try to apply logic to it, it fails me. It's as if there is something more fundamental going on which I can't bring myself to understand.

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Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
if i know my close friend looks incredible in her outfit, i'm not going to set up my partner for failure by asking if he thinks she looks hot and then either be peeved he lied (because she clearly does) or get all insecure at hearing the honest response (because he told the objective truth). i don't think people should set up each other for failure and my asking such a lose-lose question would be designed to pick a fight of some sort, i guess.
But I think this raises an interesting point. Should being an honest person lead to failure? Logic would tell us that honesty results in reward and success, but as i've already mentioned, logic doesn't seem to apply to the dating world.

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Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
to your question in the title, though, of course men are "allowed" to think about sex. women are also "allowed" sexual thoughts. what's not allowed is sexual harassment or assault, but those are behaviors, not thoughts.
I agree. I just feel that the difference between "thinking sexual thoughts" and "sexual harassment" seems to be an ever closing gap in today's world. Far too many assumptions are made about people based on very little information. But I suppose we have the internet to thank for that.
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  #36  
Old 11-20-17, 04:28 AM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

Being an honest person doesn't lead to failure. It perhaps does make it more clear who you are, and it can even turn people away early on. But that's okay since you clearly show what is "compatible" with your personality and what not.

Being a dishonest person can improve success, as you are mainly telling the other person what they want to hear, but this only works in the very short run.

But at the root of things, it comes down to one simple question: Does a man's ego need to be succesfull with MANY woman cause deep down he fears rejection, or do you put your ego to rest with the knowledge that in the end you only have to find that ONE person that is totally compatible with you and your life situation? In that last way of thinking, being rejected is not such a bad thing, a person that is totally compatible will not reject you.
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  #37  
Old 11-20-17, 05:08 AM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

Fraser, of course you are allowed to think about sex. You speak to some very strange women.

Clutter great post!! Every word of it!!
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  #38  
Old 11-20-17, 02:06 PM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by Batman55 View Post
Well, it's possible you don't understand.

Relationships are not about you or what YOU want, man, they're about the other person.

Until you figure that out, you're just going to do about as well as you've done so far. Men have become more and more entitled. It's not about your needs (not specifically you, though.. I mean generally.) That's how it works.

What do YOU have to offer another person? that should be the question to ask. If you haven't internalized relationships as being about giving--in the process, you should forget about receiving--then you need to fix that first. After that you should be able to honestly fill in your dating profile with accomplishments you're proud of, and demonstrate your ambition. It's very competitive out there; you'll need a good resume to have any chance at all. And if you can't be honest about it, work your way up the ladder--socially, academically, career-wise--until you have a better product for display. Only then you've earned a right to be there; and not before.

P.S. Again I'm not directing this toward anyone in this thread, but toward men in general :-)
Bolding added by me. Men have always had this sense of entitlement, it's
part of a patriarchial society.

What has changed is that women began expressing their own sense of entitlement.
No more being mere chattel, not only possessions of the men,
doing as we are bidden, beholden to the man for our very existence.
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  #39  
Old 11-20-17, 02:30 PM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by Batman55 View Post
Well, it's possible you don't understand.

Relationships are not about you or what YOU want, man, they're about the other person.

Until you figure that out, you're just going to do about as well as you've done so far. Men have become more and more entitled. It's not about your needs (not specifically you, though.. I mean generally.) That's how it works.

What do YOU have to offer another person? that should be the question to ask. If you haven't internalized relationships as being about giving--in the process, you should forget about receiving--then you need to fix that first. After that you should be able to honestly fill in your dating profile with accomplishments you're proud of, and demonstrate your ambition. It's very competitive out there; you'll need a good resume to have any chance at all. And if you can't be honest about it, work your way up the ladder--socially, academically, career-wise--until you have a better product for display. Only then you've earned a right to be there; and not before.

P.S. Again I'm not directing this toward anyone in this thread, but toward men in general :-)
This doesn't just apply to men, these days. Guys also look for women with impressive careers, lots of accomplishments, who do plenty of exciting things, have great social skills and lots of friends, who have their lives well put together and no drama.
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  #40  
Old 11-20-17, 02:37 PM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Bolding added by me. Men have always had this sense of entitlement, it's
part of a patriarchial society.

What has changed is that women began expressing their own sense of entitlement.
No more being mere chattel, not only possessions of the men,
doing as we are bidden, beholden to the man for our very existence.
And that is the trouble with entitlement, everybody starts expecting they deserve something that they well may not have earned yet, it creates false expectations. That goes for both men and woman, BTW.
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  #41  
Old 11-20-17, 02:43 PM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

I'm curious about what led someone to ask you this question in the first place. I have been incredibly awkward in my life ... embarrassingly awkward and self-absorbed and socially inept ... and I've never been randomly asked if I think about sex a lot.

The women I've talked to--across a range of ages, economic classes, ethnic backgrounds--totally know men think about sex a lot. That's a given.

In fact, these women all admit they think about sex a lot.

My sense is that women don't like it when guys lie to them for sex or a relationship. They don't like when sex talk gets way ahead of the relationship ... as in I'm with a friend and colleague in the workplace, we have no flirting going on ... or she's not flirting with me ... and I start flirting with her ... and continue doing so without any positive feedback ... Yes, the women I've talked to hate that ...

There is a flirting game--a certain kind of energy--that goes on that is so important.

There's a huge difference between me looking at a woman and thinking she's attractive ... and then thinking about sex with her ... and then approaching her ... and me noticing a flirtatious charge between me and a woman ... and then flirting and riding that energy to whatever place it leads.

I admit: it took me a LONG time to notice the difference.

Tone
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Old 11-20-17, 03:20 PM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Bolding added by me. Men have always had this sense of entitlement, it's
part of a patriarchial society.

What has changed is that women began expressing their own sense of entitlement.
No more being mere chattel, not only possessions of the men,
doing as we are bidden, beholden to the man for our very existence.
Honestly, I've never known of this nor experienced this.
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  #43  
Old 11-20-17, 03:26 PM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Bolding added by me. Men have always had this sense of entitlement, it's
part of a patriarchial society.

What has changed is that women began expressing their own sense of entitlement.
No more being mere chattel, not only possessions of the men,
doing as we are bidden, beholden to the man for our very existence.
Yes, but it's also this way of thinking that gave birth to the "feminist siege mentality".

"If a man is mean to you, avoid him because he'll abuse you".
"If a man is nice to you, avoid him because he's just after sex".

So really, it's just "avoid men".
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  #44  
Old 11-20-17, 03:35 PM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Yes, but it's also this way of thinking that gave birth to the "feminist siege mentality".

"If a man is mean to you, avoid him because he'll abuse you".
"If a man is nice to you, avoid him because he's just after sex".

So really, it's just "avoid men".
come on, fraser! i know you've met some...unfortunate...women, but that's reductionist and unfair to label women that way. the siege mentality is something that some women may find appropriate but you make it sound like anyone who is a feminist concludes "avoid men" or that women in general have this mentality.

just as not all men are promiscuous or abusers, so, too, not all women see men as only falling into one of those two camps.
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Old 11-20-17, 03:43 PM
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Re: Are men not allowed to think about sex anymore?

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Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Yes, but it's also this way of thinking that gave birth to the "feminist siege mentality".

"If a man is mean to you, avoid him because he'll abuse you".
"If a man is nice to you, avoid him because he's just after sex".

So really, it's just "avoid men".
I've not heard that men who are nice are just after sex, and it hasn't been my experience. Men who market themselves as "Nice Guys"™, on the other hand, often are.

If women are truly asking you point-blank whether you're "another sex-obsessed freak", it may be that you're giving off some kind of signal beforehand that's causing them (rightly or wrongly) to wonder. Once you get to the point of being asked that question, there's rarely an answer you can give that will satisfy the questioner -- it's probably rhetorical.

Could you characterize your interactions with these women beforehand? Maybe (if that's the issue) we can help you troubleshoot.
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