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  #1  
Old 11-05-04, 03:16 PM
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Where does the "physical" aspect of ADD ends and the (lack of) will power starts?

What do you think? And/Or refer websites, research,etc.
Where does the "physical" aspect of ADD ends and the (lack of) will power starts?

In my personal experience, I know I can do better and I often don't make enough efforts and allow the child in me to do what she wants. But if you examine the story of my life, you can see that I am very responsible and DO make efforts, but it last for limited periods of time. Maybe this has to do with my bipolar. (I hate to mention my bipolar here, because this is an ADD forum, but it is necessary sometimes.) My therapist told me that I allow the child inside me to keep wandering and thinking. Sometimes I really ask myself if I really CAN'T stop thinking or if it is that I don't WANT to stop. But I cannot shut up my mind even when I try. Maybe it started because I wanted to keep thinking and then it escalated and got out of control.

Anyway, my therapist, though she tries not to openly say it, I think she doesn't believes in medication and I think she believes one can overcome mental conditions only with will power. Lately I have been reading confusing information (anybody can make a site on the internet) on this.

Can someone please give me an objective, unbiased, scientifically backed explanation or refer me to a trustable website or book?

Well, I guess the bottom line is this: Everybody has to make efforts to overcome those issues, but the ADDer has to make X times the efforts that Non-adders has to do.
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Old 11-05-04, 03:23 PM
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This also refered to Can't VS Won't. I don't think it's an either other thing. I think there are many times that people with ADD just can't do things because of their brains shutting down or not working right. But, I also think there are times that people won't do things because of times in the past when they couldn't. They refer back to those negative experiences.

I have always hated the term will power. Maybe it's because I just really don't get what will power is. I know what the term means in the literal sense/
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Old 11-06-04, 12:55 AM
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First; some caveats. I am capable of performing minor surgery on my own feet to remove ingrown toenails. I have worked at jobs which, day after day, broke the labour code for safety restrictions on things like heat exhaustion, without ever losing consciousness or giving up. Strength of will is not a problem with me.

That said; I have been diagnosed with AD/HD. Just today, actually, I got the official psychiatric diagnosis (we discuss treatment next session). I've been posting here for a few months, however, ever since a counselor unofficially diagnosed me and sent me to psychiatry (yes, I waited 5 months for my first appointment. Canada's health care can be a pain and a long wait, but at least I'm not paying $150 an hour I can't afford). And I sought help because I could not focus on work.

I'm an Honours History student. My GPA is 3.45, and I haven't earned less than an A- this term. I don't brag, because IMHO anyone can get the same kinds of grades with hard work. I only make the point that I'm a good student.

When I say I couldn't focus on work, I mean I could not. There were days I spent sitting in front of the computer, mentally screaming at myself that I had to get started on that 20 page Honours-level paper that was due in three days (since I hadn't typed a word yet). And my hand would still swing over and double-click on Solitaire, as that other part of my brain is screaming in frustration.

I love my field. I love doing research, and enjoy writing papers. It's not a motivation issue, or a boredom issue. It's not a willpower issue. My AD/HD wasn't letting me work. I simply could not gain the focus necessary to start in.

This, of course, goes back through grade school. But I've been told for the last 20 years that it's because I'm lazy, unmotivated, unwilling to apply myself, etc, etc. In other words, that I won't apply myself. Having been in school both in a field I disliked and one I love, it's not that I won't apply myself, it's that I can not.


That said; it can be incredibly hard to distinguish between "can't" and "won't" with mental issues. Because the physical limitations are mental. There's nothing physically preventing me, except my brain. So on some levels, I won't work. But it's not for lack of trying, or mental effort, which is why I lump it in as "can't".

If I were deliberately avoiding my work (as I admit I used to; I wasn't always a decent student, I've failed out in the past and am well familiar with both sides), I'd say it was "won't". But it's not.
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Old 11-06-04, 02:00 AM
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That was a good example and a clear picture Alex. Thanks.
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Old 11-06-04, 12:25 PM
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Alex, I hate that you have to go through it, but it's good to know that I'm not the only one. I suffer from exactly the same problem. I haven't been officially diagnosed yet, I've talked with my doctor and we're trying medication to see if that will help. I'm also a History student, and love it, but like yourself, can't get myself to work. I want to get started early so badly, but there is always something else the other part of me wants to do. I also thought it was just me being lazy forever, and didn't think I could have ADHD, but I'm working through it now also. I suppose I should try and work on my paper on Archery under Edward I now, it'll probably take me all day to get half of the research. How did you motivate yourself to get such good grades this semester? (I hope I'm not taking this thread too far off topic)
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Old 11-06-04, 02:02 PM
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Hey, Alex, et al:

This seems more difficult to understand than it really is. The problem is (y)our perspective, but an additional problem is that we need that perspective if we want to do normal things.

We tend to see how we function in terms of the situation, but the situation isn't as real as it seems.

Writing a term paper seems pretty basic and real, just paper and ideas. But it's actually a complex mixture of the reasons for writing it, how that fits into the mental picture that everyone has about education, taking classes, graduating, being validated by that… and you get the idea.

The idea of performing tasks the way a normal mind does is deeply ingrained in every part of our reality. Our mental models of everything we can think about are infected with the perception of how we should see and do things normally.

Kay and I see the problem in that sense. We think in terms of how what we're doing needs to conform in a certain way, in order to meet the expectations that others will have of it.

Regardless of how good it is, people (even ADDers) won't recognize our effort if it doesn’t look like what they expect. If we're not careful, we won't even recognize our own effort.

Sometimes we can let ourselves soar a bit higher, and sometimes we need to throttle ourselves back in order for the other people involved to see that we're really doing the job required.

Much of it depends on who we’re dealing with, but the type of task has a big influence, too. When Kay needs to approve timesheets and get them to payroll by Thursday at five o'clock, the requirements on her behavior are pretty clear.

But planning is a different story, even planning under a deadline. When you're going to be judged on your ideas, you need to use your brain in the way it works best.

And there's a whole spectrum of planning; at the bottom is the kind of thinking that you do for a book report in grade school, as structured a situation as Kay's payroll.

At the other end is the Genius / Professor Emeritus situation; if your eyes are closed, you're thinking, and if you're snoring, you're thinking extra hard. People don't have any expectation of how you will work.

ADDer or not, everybody expects to eventually move up in that spectrum. One measure of your progress is being placed in Honours courses; the expectation is clearly that you are able to work more like the Professor Emeritus than other students, and the quality of your ideas should reflect that.

So you know where to go to do the thinking, just as Kay knows when to let herself soar on a problem. The ideas and the structure that supports them is everything. Knocking off the paper is the least part of the effort; once we have the ideas straight, it just flows.

We all start with writing book reports, and less clever work is often done on the page, as it's being written. Learning to outline is supposed to pry us out of that habit, but it just ingrains the idea of thinking on paper.

So we all share the experience you're describing, and it's not really specific to writing a paper. A similar problem of perception and changing expectations of how to function are at the root of most of what's been posted here and elsewhere about this problem.

The AD/HD part of your problem with the paper comes from the strong mental model of how we should work, i.e., starting weeks before and writing on a schedule.

As we naturally respond to the perceived expectations of being placed in an Honours-level course, our own instinctive behaviours will start to distract us, because they don't match the mental model of how we’re supposed to work.

When you look at it like this, the way that the symptoms of AD/HD arise is obvious. We can be so distracted by our own perception that we’re not working that the process is interfered with, and the work actually doesn't get done.

So we sit, and stare, until enough pressure builds up that we're forced into hyperdrive. We can justify ignoring all of our mental models because the situation is now an emergency.

The work itself suffers, of course, and that just feeds back to validate and support the incorrect model of how we should work. The process consumes us all, to different degrees, causing the broad array of different effects attributed to AD/HD.

If you get the sense from this that Kay and I don't think AD/HD is some organic problem at all, you're entirely correct. In these situations, it arises entirely from the fact that there are normal models of how we should perform, and they are more or less appropriate to how we work best.

The fact that we can best work differently is the actual AD/HD. Our normal model of the Genius / Professor Emeritus also working differently is part of the perception that people like Albert Einstein might have been undiagnosed ADDers. It might not have anything to do with AD/HD, or it might have everything to do with it. We don't know.

But we do know that thinking of yourself as being in that class is hard to do. Nevertheless, that's exactly what we all must do, at least as far as the idea that we can excel by working differently. Maybe that doesn't make us geniuses after all, but if the name fits, you might as well wear it.

If you think of yourself that way, your strange paper writing habits won't seem so dangerous, and you'll find yourself doing more uninterrupted thinking. The quality of your work will soar, just like Kay's does when she lets herself go.

The real trick comes in after you begin to get that new mental model of yourself and how you work. Each situation is different to us; there's a normal model of how we should work, and a greater or lesser need to conform to it.

How much we conform is the output of the equation. Who we have to work with, what their expectations are, how much they need to perceive our methods as normal in order to accept the work itself as valid, all these are the variables we work with everyday.

Recognizing these issues and learning to think about them like this has completely changed our perception of our own performance. The quality of the work we do is important, of course, but just as important is working in a way that allows for the shortcomings of the normal perception of how we work.

Our goals are really the same, but we’re aware of how we need to proceed to get the rest of the group to accept it and move forward. It's just a balancing act, and we ADDers are really good at that.

So if you're doing a paper for an Honours-level course, it shouldn't seem so unusual to be typing it into the computer on the last day. The brighter you are, the more likely that behaviour is expected, right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by livingwithadd
This also referred to Can't VS Won't. I don't think it's an either other thing. I think there are many times that people with ADD just can't do things because of their brains shutting down or not working right. But, I also think there are times that people won't do things because of times in the past when they couldn't. They refer back to those negative experiences.

I have always hated the term will power. Maybe it's because I just really don't get what will power is. I know what the term means in the literal sense/
We couldn't agree with you more. We don't get the will power thing either. It's just an artifact of mistakenly thinking that our mental models of how we should work are reality.

The reasons our brains shut down are there in what we described above. They aren't working right, because we’re interfered with. But that idea also might follow from assuming that being shut down must have a real physical cause.

If so, there's a bad mental model on the hoof.

That idea is exacerbated by the fact that drugs help. Mustn't that mean there is an actual underlying physical cause, something chemical that the drugs alter?

The answer is not at all. This is precisely why Kay and I think of the stimulants as 'stealth drugs'. Drugs do change our brain chemistry, but what they change is our perception of our behavior, and in turn other people's perception of it as well.

That removes much of the pressure, and we work differently and better. It might seem like a barrier is lifted, of a defect compensated for, but the only mechanisms are ones like those we just described. The drugs don't directly affect the thinking function of our brains in any significant way.

--Tom and Kay
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Old 11-06-04, 03:38 PM
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I'll second what Alex said.

Will power. Try to use it next time you have a fever. Try to will yourself to feel good and function normally.
You might as well "Will" yourself to flap your arms and fly away to mars.

Impossible.

I say that the proper function of the will in this case is to do the things necessary for recovery: rest, drink plenty of fluids, eat foods that are simple and easy to digest, take medications such as antibiotics if necessary.

When a person has a physical disability, such as blindness, no one even dreams of telling them "Watch where you're going."
No one tells a person in a wheel chair to quit complaining about stairs and walk up them.
No one tells a person who is mentally retarded to quit being dumb and start being intelligent.

So, why do people expect others who have probles they can't see--mental disabilities--to overcome them with will power? Its because, quite frankly, they don't believe in the hard reality of mental dysfunction, and that its every bit as real as physical dysfunction.

I have some close friends in Texas; the husband is physically handicapped, where his walking is very jerky and unbalanced and his hands shake and tremble (fetal alcohol syndrome &/or multiple sclorosis, and severe arthritus makes everything painful). Eating is very difficult, and he has to bend down close to his plate and holding his spoon is his left hand he then steadies his left hand with his right had. He can't cut his food with a knife and fork because it will fly off the plate onto the floor.
Mentally however, he is in excellent condition.
His wife is another matter; she is very bi-polar, subject to anxiety attacks, hypochondriac, and quite frankly, although I love her dearly, I have to say that she is just plain batty. Physically however, she is in good condition, with just the normal age-related problems of a person in their late 50's.
This last year he finally realized something (after close to 30 years of marriage) that I had known for years--his wife is more handcapped than he is. This realization on his part has help their relationship tremendously.

On a more personal note, I've been exchanging PM's over the last few weeks with a forum member who has severe fibromyalgia. I can't see her pain, but I can (and do!) choose to belive that it is very, very real. I could just as well say "Its all in your head, quit faking."
Notice that I used the word choose. Now relate this to your therapist; she has chosen to believe that your mental problems are within your control.
Mine are not within my control, but I do have a great deal of choice as to how I deal with them.
I can also relate this to alcoholism and drug addiction: as an addict, I had lost all power of choice as to whether I was going to drink or use drugs--I did it when I wanted to, and I did it when I didn't want to. There were also times I wanted to, but couldn't.
In this case, the proper exercise of my will power was to go to a substance abuse treatment program, and then exercise my will power to follow the course of recovery they outlined for me. As a result of that, I have been clean and sober for over 15 years.
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Old 11-06-04, 06:00 PM
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Thanks for the support, folks, but I also wholeheartedly support Tom and Kay's post; they reiterate many of the same basic things I said, but from an entirely different and perhaps more fundamentally accurate viewpoint. I still haven't gotten over the "I'm not normal, therefore I'm weird and probably wrong" mindset, even though I know full well that a 'normal' person without ADHD hasn't a prayer of writing as good a paper in 2 days as I can, having done no prior work. This doesn't make me better than them. They can do leadup work and plan things out ahead of time, so they don't need to rely on a hyperfocus-driven crash-writing session to get it done, which I do. In fact, what I'm hoping to be able to work out with meds is a way to get the best of both worlds; get some groundwork done, get the wrinkles ironed out ahead of time, and then let loose the chains and hyperfocus into an altogether better prepared paper. My biggest problem has always been, and continues to be, this kind of foresight. Something I'm seeing quite clearly in my thesis work, since I've deliberately set myself a difficult and daunting task of trying to sift through a contentious historical issue and try to piece together something closer to "real" than either side of the current debate is using. It's nitpicky, and detail-oriented, and completely different from what I usually do. Which is good, because this is also the kind of work that will get me noticed and pushed into grad school, if I do well. And my AD/HD is making it difficult; I'm already a bit behind on my reading.

As to how I write big papers in short time periods; like Tom and Kay suggested some geniuses do, I have the ability to keep part of my brain ticking over on information I've taken in. I also have a near-photographic memory; my biggest problem is just data-retrieval, it's in there, the trick is getting it out. But my subconscious knows where it all is, and pieces together amazing work, considering that I've probably been playing Diablo 2 for the past three days straight.
I'm not being egotistical; these are qualities that have let me get by. They don't make me inherently 'better' than anyone, they're just the specific advantages I have, other people have similar or other advantages. I'm firmly convinced the most important aspect in scholastic achievement is hard work, not intelligence. There's plenty of people who likely have less raw intelligence than I do, but who can get better grades than me, because they're more methodical and apply what they have better. The old tortoise and the hare; it doesn't matter if I'm a mental hare if I'm sniffing flowers and taking naps all the time.
And no, I don't claim to be a "genius". My IQ tests out high enough that I feel no need to try and brag by posting it here, since all an IQ test shows is how well you do on IQ tests. I'll wait till I'm an expert in my field before I start claiming "genius" status.


If I had suggestions about papers, it would be to read as much as possible in the subject. The biggest difference between a C paper and an A paper is if you read the minimum 6 sources, randomly selected from everything in the library you could use based on what was in, or if you read almost everything, and selected the best 8-10 sources from all that. Thankfully, this is one place I have no problems; I enjoy reading, I hyperfocus while doing it a lot, and I read outside my current field of study all the time, so when I start a new project I often have a head start. My currrent thesis is on north atlantic journeys by Europeans before Columbus. And even before I selected the topic, I'd read 4 books on various aspects of the subject, and own two. Because I enjoyed reading about it the last couple years.

Reading everything that you can get your hands on is the absolute best thing you can do. Obviously, if it's three days before it's due, it's too late. So try and read lots, and read early. You'll find that when you then forget it until three days before, you're a heck of a lot better off than if you hadn't read anything, even if you didn't take notes.
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Old 11-06-04, 07:14 PM
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Well put, Alex, especially stressing that different doesn't mean better.

Of course, on your case, it's being chosen for Honours-level classes that reflects the being better part, so you're probably going to have to accept it sooner or later. But that's not really about AD/HD, either, or at least it shouldn't be.

Kay and I share your feelings about anyone being able to do as well. Short of actual physical damage (like the MR 'kids' Kay's responsible for), we've never met anyone that isn't pretty much as capable as anyone that ever lived.

In other words, here’s a place where the bell curve doesn't apply at all. Where variability (and things like IQ scores) appears is in the process of constructing a human mind from the raw properties inherent to the brain.

* * * *

We think it's an important step to recognize that the impulse to think of AD/HD as a disability actually causes some of our problems.

And we can't discriminate between us doing it to ourselves or others doing it; they're really just different views of the same phenomenon.

It isn't proper to think of AD/HD as a mental dysfunction; it's closer to a social dysfunction, but that still misses the point.

Most of the interactions that bring about our symptoms are just that, interactions. They're bilateral, in that they require the same thing on both sides of the interaction.

If you think of it in terms of dysfunction, then normals are subject to the exact same social dysfunction as we are, and the interactions are the expression of that.

But the whole thing is sort of like trying to blame an argument on emotion; putting a sign up at the door won't do a thing to keep it out. And it's obviously got to be bilateral, on both sides, or there isn't any argument happening.

So we long ago we gave up on the idea that it's any kind of dysfunction at all. It was one of those freeing moments, leading to a flood of new understanding about ourselves and AD/HD.

--Tom and Kay
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Old 11-06-04, 11:58 PM
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I also hate the term "will power", perhaps because...I don't have it???? I would like to get some feedback on how helpful or unhelpful your therapists have been on this issue. I am starting to feel guilty and unsure about how real my ADD is because of things my therapist have said, like the one I mentioned in the thread.

Please, don't feel offended, but remember that I (we) am (are) ADDer's, so try to keep your messages relatively short. (Sorry, I don't want to be mean.) Can you do that for me?
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Old 11-07-04, 01:11 AM
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[I'll try and keep it short... lol. I remember Mark Twain once began a letter by apologizing for it's length, saying he didn't have time to write a short note. ]

I think the whole "I don't believe in medication" thing is hogwash, personally. Meds work, period. Ideally, I'd be able to do the things I can do on meds without them, but it just doesn't seem to happen that way.

Off meds, I've got all the good intentions and ideas you could ever want, but as far as follow-through, forget it.

The point is, if you can do it without meds, that is great. I wish I could; the idea of being on 4 prescription drugs at age 30 (not all of them are psych meds) doesn't thrill me, but I can no more deal with ADD without my meds than I can deal with my asthma without meds, and that's that.
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Old 11-07-04, 01:37 AM
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ADHD is neurological

...ADHD is neurological...
ADHD feels normal to me, .. It's only other people's reactions that lets me know it isn't normal...

Many non-ADD people tell ADDers to "just try harder" or "just use some self control".
Do this little experiment: Close your mouth and pinch your nose shut and try to hold your breath for ten minutes. After about 30 - 60 seconds when you feel like you are going to die, "just try harder",
then when you start felling panicky like you are going to just explode if you do not breath, "use a little self control, its all in your mind", "it is just your attitiude". ..

Oh well, that is what it is like for me. I can control my ADD symptoms through sheer willpower about as well as you can hold your breath for 10 minutes through sheer willpower.
copied from a news site
***

...Knowledge is power when it comes to dealing with ADHD. .. more powerful than drugs or our own motivation.
Every time you accomplish a small task it will build your self esteem...


... absolutely no one on this earth cares about you ...as much as you. Not ... even your spouse. I know it sounds scary but if you want your life to be better it’s up to you to make it happen.

copied from a self help site
****

> People with ADHD cannot overcome their disabilities with willpower alone.

> Stimulant medications do not 'dope' nor sedate the user. People using stimulants to treat ADHD do not become addicted.
> People with ADHD are not 'just lazy'.

> The 'controversy' of ADHD only exists in the media - the reality of ADHD is accepted in professional circles

***

Mariela,
I know it's not very short, but I really tried
If your therapist is not helping you PLEASE find someone else. I'm hoping I am misunderstanding your post but it sounds as if your therapist doesn't prescribe you medication but expects you to overcome ADD symptoms with adult vs. what s/he suggests is childish-without willpower behavior? "My therapist told me that I allow the child inside me to keep wandering and thinking"
IF so this is absolutely ridiculous.
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Old 11-07-04, 11:30 AM
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My two cents

I agree that willpower alone will not get someone with AD/HD to miraculously function just like "normal" people. There is a huge difference between having the determination to do something you decide to do (a goal), and having the resources to do so. To get those resources:

Some of us need meds to remove the tendency for our brains to shut off when we try to forge through. (Whether or not the tendency is physical or socialogical in its source is really a non-issue to me; it has no bearing on its effect.)

Some of us need the confidence to try again after being told we failed so many times.

Some of us need to reframe how we view our goals and know that getting the goal accomplished is more important than getting them accomplished the same way as "everyone else".

Some of us need to get more ideas on how to get our goals carried out.

Some of us need to realize that we only have so much time and energy, and we are spending them on things that don't improve our lives, so it's time to get new goals.

Personally, I think everyone here on these forums is showing we have plenty of will-power. We all come here, not because we want to give up and be given excuses, but because we have realized that part of the path to completing what we have set out to do is to get help when we stumble.

I think this is an excellent question-this is one I've been wrestling with for the last few months. The above is the conclusion I came to after getting myself so worked up I had to be hospitalized lest I harm myself in my desire to get "un-trapped" by the inability to do what I wanted. It is amazing how ADD is one of those things we are SO hard on ourselves about when it's really just one more thing that affects how we function in this world, just like my nearsightedness, athsma, and tendency toward perfectionism. Mental disorder or not, the fact is that my diagnosis helps me understand more about how I think and function and now it's time to work with what I've got, not keep trying to live my life the hard way.
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Old 11-08-04, 08:42 AM
jenni4476 jenni4476 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
As to how I write big papers in short time periods; like Tom and Kay suggested some geniuses do, I have the ability to keep part of my brain ticking over on information I've taken in. I also have a near-photographic memory; my biggest problem is just data-retrieval, it's in there, the trick is getting it out. But my subconscious knows where it all is, and pieces together amazing work, considering that I've probably been playing Diablo 2 for the past three days straight.
I'm not being egotistical; these are qualities that have let me get by. They don't make me inherently 'better' than anyone, they're just the specific advantages I have, other people have similar or other advantages. I'm firmly convinced the most important aspect in scholastic achievement is hard work, not intelligence. There's plenty of people who likely have less raw intelligence than I do, but who can get better grades than me, because they're more methodical and apply what they have better. The old tortoise and the hare; it doesn't matter if I'm a mental hare if I'm sniffing flowers and taking naps all the time.
And no, I don't claim to be a "genius". My IQ tests out high enough that I feel no need to try and brag by posting it here, since all an IQ test shows is how well you do on IQ tests. I'll wait till I'm an expert in my field before I start claiming "genius" status.
Wow, Alex, I know exactly what you mean. Funny, I thought I was the only one in the world who did this...everyone else always told me i was crazy until the A's kept coming in and then they're like how do you do it?

This is just how I've gotten through college so far (despite having to drop out 4 times)...I keep going back but then after about a year, sometimes a semester I get exhausted because of the enormous energy required to do this several times a week for each of my classes.

Everyone's always told me "you're so smart, just keep going", what they don't get is that I can't. I just hit a brick wall..oh, just thought of a good analogy to tell a non ADDer...you're standing in front of a twenty foot high completely smooth brick wall with no ropes or footholds or anything and told to just will yourself up and over it....that's exactly what it's like.

Unlike you, I've always felt the need to brag about my IQ (i was tested very young as it was apparent already by age two as well as four other times through my life when i had other psychological problems)...everyone always kept making me feel inferior in every other area of my life so i started to focus on that as a way to make myself feel better (tho not endearing to other people...)

Your post really clarified this issue for me-it's something I've been skirting around like I know there's a problem there but I'm not quite sure what it is...will have to do some thinking and mental readjusting to this.

I was just diagnosed two weeks ago and have been put on Strattera...trying to get through the full impact of everything that goes along with this...entire new way of viewing myself and my life and others...I'm sure you all know how it goes

sorry for the length and rambling...just wanted to get my thoughts out...
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Old 11-08-04, 11:51 AM
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OK, Mariela, here's the executive summary:

There is no "physical aspect" of AD/HD. Forget the idea. It's holding you (and others) back.

Will power has nothing to do with it. Drugs can help take some pressure off, but that's all they do. The rest is up to you, and the only thing that works is forming the right mental model of what you're doing.

That's what every successful method has in common: correcting your ideas about what AD/HD does to/for you. Most of what people 'know' is wrong, or misses critical ideas.

ADDers don't do well without reasons. We try to explain complex ideas, so our posts get long. But this is really all we said, without explanations.

If there's part if it that seems unclear, just ask. It's your thread. (grins…)

--Tom and Kay
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There's just life. Get on with it."
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