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Old 08-12-11, 09:26 AM
johng123 johng123 is offline
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Smile ADD/ADHD does not exist

It doesn't exist, and here is why. If you disagree, please explain why, and I will be glad to discuss it with you. I have made this thread because TygerSan is no longer responding to my PM conversation with him. Here is a summary of what I have written, in chronological order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johng123
I had to make an account so that I could respond to this thread. I have nothing against you taking amphetamine. I am just going to list some simple facts for you guys to think about:

1. ADD/ADHD is not a disorder or disease like schizophrenia or tourettes. You have trouble paying attention in school or class? Its because you are an ape who spent millions of years hunter-gathering and in the last thousand years society has become so different from the environment our species evolved in that it is frustrating to our ape brains. No one in 1900 or before had ADHD. You have trouble concentrating in school because everyone does.
2. Amphetamine has the same effect on every human. It makes you feel good and gives you energy, makes you talk faster, etc. Most people dont have energy and dont feel good, but you people call this ADHD and say that amphetamine is "treating your ADHD".
3. No one likes to be wrong about the way they are living their life. Humans are emotional animals and will confabulate endlessly about the reasons why they are right about something, which is why you are so defensive about your amphetamine. It is my opinion that, because of the absurdness of the environment of modern humans compared to the kind they were living in 100,000 years ago, taking psychoactive drugs may help them function in our absurd society. Just please try to have an open mind about this instead of screaming I NEED AMPHETAMINE BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE HAS ENERGY AND CAN FOCUS IN SCHOOL BUT I CANT SO I MUST BE DIFFERENT. You can, you just don't. If someone put a gun to your head and told you to stop fidgeting in class, you would. Do you think people in third world countries or anyone who has lived before amphetamine was invented had ADHD? No.
4. You "need" amphetamine to function? People who take amphetamine to get high are bad but you take it to feel normal so its okay? When amphetamine "helps you function", but does not make you feel high, thats called being a little high instead of very high. There is no threshold where at a certain dosage it makes you high, and .01mg less would make you not high. There is only more or less high.
5. Pharmaceutical companies don't care about you, they just want money. Thats why they can take a generic drug like paroxetine that costs $4 and make an extended release version called Paxil CR and charge $150 for it. Thats why there are so many separate statin drugs that are all basically the same (crestor, lipitor, zocor, etc). They KNOW amphetamine makes everyone feel good and that it will help them with whatever problems they are having so they charge a lot of money for it.
6. I understand how misleading it is that you can be diagnosed with ADHD and yet I am saying it is not a real disorder. Unfortunately the pharmaceutical industry is not as honest as it should be. Doctors are people too, and they are wrong sometimes.

Basically, it comes down to whether you think concentrating is really much easier for everyone else than it is for you. Concentrating in school is not fun and people don't like to do it, but they do it anyway. You may believe that it is harder for you to concentrate than it is for other people, but is that any different from a fat person saying that exercise is harder for them than it is for other people? Sometimes you need to admit to yourself that you just need to man up and do something that is difficult to do. People in third world countries get along fine without antidepressants or amphetamine. I completely understand anyone wanting to take amphetamine, because it helps everyone function, feel good and get things done. But don't say that you need it and that other people don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng123
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADDinSRQ
Johng123, you obviously have never experienced what some of us go through. You have never had to read the same sentence 3 times just to grasp what it meant because your mind keeps wondering somewhere else.

Wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADDinSRQ
Not only this, but brain scans of those who suffer with ADHD do show significant differences in the brains function, just like those with turrets, OCD, or bipolar disorder.

Don't reference scientific studies that you have not read and do not understand.

ADD is not a real disease because it is diagnosed on the basis of subjective criteria. borntoexplore.org/DSM.htm If you meet 6 out of 9 of the criteria for either type of ADD, you can be diagnosed. Things like "Often talks excessively." or "Often leaves seat in classroom or other situation where it is inappropriate." or "Often has difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly." or "Often blurts out answers before questions have been completed" or "Often has difficulty awaiting turn." or "Is often forgetful in daily activities." or "Often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities." or "Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.". or "Often avoids, dislikes or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort (such as schoolwork or homework)."
And on and on. I wish these criteria were a joke, but they are not. You don't like doing homework? That's because no one does. The word "often" is subjective. Saying someone is more hyperactive than "normal" is subjective. If someone put a gun to your head you would be able to stop figeting and do your homework, you would. If someone put a gun to the head of someone with Tourette's, they would not be able to stop twitching. If someone put a gun to the head of someone with depression, they would not be able to stop being sad. If someone put a gun to the head of someone with schizophrenia, they would not be able to stop hearing voices.
Then again, you don't even know what the DSM is. You probably don't know what subjective means. You just convinced yourself that everything must be easier for everyone else than it is for you. My only problem with ADD is that eventually everyone is going to have to take Adderall to stay competitive in the academic world, like steroids with athletes. Basically, stop being babies and face the fact that school is hard for everyone. Ritalin was invented before ADD was. ADD was created to be a disease which a drug they already invented could now treat and make pharmaceutical companies money.
After the thread was closed, I tried to make a new topic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng123
Thanks for the enthusiastic responses to my comments on here:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14600&page=9

So, in response:
The ADHD diagnosis is not real because every single person on earth fits the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for ADHD. If you need another link to the diagnostic criteria again, here it is: http://www.turnertoys.com/ADHD/APA_diagCriteria.htm. If you think that sitting still in class or being quiet or doing homework assignments bothers you "more" than it bothers other students, that's a subjective opinion of yours, not an objective diagnosis.

I'm not going to respond to statements like "if you think ADHD isn't real, then you think Autism isn't real". "Thanking" other people for posting statements like that is truly pathetic and disturbing.

"Sometimes amphetamine doesn't make people feel good." Okay, I will admit that, but that's if you take too much. Amphetamine does not affect people differently, and yes it does make you talk faster, and yes it does make you feel good (again, unless you take too much) because it increases dopamine, end of story.

"Some people think school is easy." OK, that's the best point anyone made. But do you think these people were born being good at school? No. There was practice involved. No one is good at anything without practice. If you think those kids never had to try to train themselves to sit still or be quiet or do homework, you are wrong. No one's homework gets done effortlessly. You can say that it takes them less effort than it takes you, but that makes you sound like a fat person saying exercise is more difficult for you than it is for other people. If you resign to having a "disorder", you will set the bar lower for yourself to achieve things, and you won't practice as hard as these people are.

On top of that, I always hear that ADHD kids are "actually" smarter than normal people, "hence the Edison gene". You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that everything is harder for you than for everyone else and demand performance-enhancing drugs and get extra time on your SATs, but claim that you are also smarter than everyone else.

What's next, "Things Are Difficult For Me Sometimes" Disorder? If a pharmaceutical company could sell you a drug to "cure" that disorder, they would. Try to understand that.
After that topic failed I began a PM conversation with TygerSan:
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng123
If ADHD is diagnosed according to those 9 behaviors, what is the difference between someone with ADHD and someone who is just undisciplined? I can't see any difference. The argument from the ADHD community seems to be that they biologically have less "self-control" than other people. No one is born with self-control and I can't see how you are supposed to be able to tell a difference from someone who was never disciplined and someone with ADHD. Even if were a biological basis for ADHD, the ADHD diagnosis is going to put undisciplined kids on drugs because their parents didn't do their job. Also giving extra time and stimulants to kids on SATs undermines the point of a standardized test. Why should some kids suffer because they did not go to a psychiatrist and be prescribed a drug that allows them to perform better in school? It's not fair that kids should have to become addicted to stimulant drugs to stay competitive in academics because other kids are taking them. That is exactly like steroids and athletes. The number of disorders listed in the DSM keeps growing and I see no reason for it to slow down anytime soon. ADHD only exists in the united states.

Please explain why you think the existence of the ADHD diagnosis is a good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng123
Also, behaviors are not symptoms. You can't prove that differences shown in a PET scan aren't because a person's brain developed differently because they were not disciplined as a kid. Until there is a study that performs this test on babies and then follows them to adulthood and sees who gets the ADHD diagnosis and finds a significant relationship, there is no proof. Do you agree with that or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng123
Quote:
Originally Posted by TygerSan
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng123
You can't prove that differences shown in a PET scan aren't because a person's brain developed differently because they were not disciplined as a kid. Until there is a study that performs this test on babies and then follows them to adulthood and sees who gets the ADHD diagnosis and finds a significant relationship, there is no proof. Do you agree with that or not?
I would again urge you to take this to the open forums, if you so desire.

There *are* such studies, including one just published. Jay Giedd from NIH has done a bunch of long-term studies looking at structural development in kids with and without ADHD (and in the latest case, looking at kids with behavioural *symptoms* of ADHD)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21159727


First off, you can't get enough information from that abstract to really understand the study (it doesn't even say how long they followed the participants or how old they are). Secondly, those are children, not babies. The images were taken at a point in time when half the participants already "exhibited" ADHD. All this proves to me is that being undisciplined and watching TV all the time produces a slower rate of "cortical thinning". Find me something proves there were differences at birth.

And name one "symptom" of ADHD that isn't a subjective judgment of behavior. And if you can't, why do you consider behavior to be a symptom? Are people who are *****holes to other people "exhibiting" "symptoms" of *****HOLE Disorder? As a society we choose to believe that people have some level of control over their actions, which is why people who murder other people go to jail. The ADHD diagnosis is based on the idea that there is a vague and subjective "normal" amount of self-control a person has. Do you not believe in free will? I am hesitant to take this to the forums because the responses I got prove those people are retarded and have no interest in science or anything other than covering their ears and screaming "IM SPECIAL IM DIFFERENT" and thanking eachother. Honestly, they are just too stupid and don't have a science background, so their opinions on scientific studies are worthless to me. My goal is honestly not to harass people with ADHD but to see if there is anyone out there with any real proof. I have yet to find any.
At this point TygerSan stopped responding. What's funny is that TygerSan has said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TygerSan
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng123
Don't reference scientific studies that you have not read and do not understand.
And don't assume that people who are referencing studies *don't* understand what they're referencing. I read scientific literature for my day job.
But he clearly did not understand the study he linked me to. Maybe I should have his job.

If you've read this far you might have learned a lot. "ADHD is real because I was diagnosed and now I take amphetamine and it makes me feel better" is not a valid argument for why ADHD is a real disease. If you don't understand that don't bother responding. Or do respond, but I already answered that (amphetamine makes everyone feel good) and I've repeated myself a lot already. Consider this: when someone presents views different from the ones you already believe, people take it as a threat in a primal animal way. The emotional response of anger comes first, and "reason" or "logical argument" is confabulated after the fact. That's why Democrats can't convince Republicans that Republicans are wrong: no one likes the idea that they are wrong about their beliefs or the way they have been living their lives. So try to control your anger and consider the possibility that some of what I'm saying is valid. It's taken me a lot of effort to copy and paste all this crap and I did it because I care. I expect a lot of retarded comments that are thanked endlessly by other retarded people, but if I get even one intelligent person to discuss this scientifically with me, it makes it all worth it.

Does free will exist? Society says yes, which is why we punish people for crimes they commit. If free will exists, you can control your actions. I'm going to repeat what I said before to make this clear:
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng123
And name one "symptom" of ADHD that isn't a subjective judgment of behavior. And if you can't, why do you consider behavior to be a symptom? Are people who are a-s-s-holes to other people "exhibiting" "symptoms" of A-S-S-HOLE Disorder? As a society we choose to believe that people have some level of control over their actions, which is why people who murder other people go to jail. The ADHD diagnosis is based on the idea that there is a vague and subjective "normal" amount of self-control a person has. Do you not believe in free will?
Self-control isn't fun, but it's always possible. And if you don't believe in free will, feel free to discuss that with me too. Would you rather try to change your thought patterns or just give up and become addicted to amphetamine?
  #2  
Old 08-12-11, 09:37 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

Soz tl;dr. But just a question, what is your opinion on the existence of autism? I saw that part vaguely but you said you weren't even gonna reply to people asking about that. Why not? Either you believe in it but not ADHD and it seems hypocritical or you don't believe in it and have no backup it seems.
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Old 08-12-11, 09:39 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

Oh dear....you sound like my mom with the first sentence of the last paragraph.

If you don't believe ADD exists, I don't think your questioning should stop there. I think you should start a thread in chit-chat questioning Isaac Newton's laws and the laws of physics. If you're questioning the existence of ADD, I think questioning why when a pencil is pushed off an elevated surface it falls to the ground is certainly reasonable. Yes. It's gravity. However, if ADD is questionable a disorder, so is a law like gravity.

Here's my blog on here on the myth of ADD:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/blog.php?b=11453

The science behind ADD CANNOT be refuted.
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Old 08-12-11, 09:45 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

Quote:
Originally Posted by PixiePlumber View Post
Soz tl;dr. But just a question, what is your opinion on the existence of autism? I saw that part vaguely but you said you weren't even gonna reply to people asking about that. Why not? Either you believe in it but not ADHD and it seems hypocritical or you don't believe in it and have no backup it seems.
Of course autism exists, it has nothing to do with self-control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouslyadd View Post
Oh dear....you sound like my mom with the first sentence of the last paragraph.

If you don't believe ADD exists, I don't think your questioning should stop there. I think you should start a thread in chit-chat questioning Isaac Newton's laws and the laws of physics. If you're questioning the existence of ADD, I think questioning why when a pencil is pushed off an elevated surface it falls to the ground is certainly reasonable. Yes. It's gravity. However, if ADD is questionable a disorder, so is a law like gravity.

Here's my blog on here on the myth of ADD:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/blog.php?b=11453

The science behind ADD CANNOT be refuted.
not going to read your blog, post your specific argument here. your statement "However, if ADD is questionable a disorder, so is a law like gravity." is a red herring, you probably dont know what that means so look it up
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Old 08-12-11, 09:46 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouslyadd View Post
Oh dear....you sound like my mom with the first sentence of the last paragraph.

If you don't believe ADD exists, I don't think your questioning should stop there. I think you should start a thread in chit-chat questioning Isaac Newton's laws and the laws of physics. If you're questioning the existence of ADD, I think questioning why when a pencil is pushed off an elevated surface it falls to the ground is certainly reasonable. Yes. It's gravity. However, if ADD is questionable a disorder, so is a law like gravity.

Here's my blog on here on the myth of ADD:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/blog.php?b=11453

The science behind ADD CANNOT be refuted.


Oh don't be so hard on what could potentially be a troll now I've seen all their posts. It must be hard for them to understand having a disorder when they don't suffer from it nor can it be seen. There's a lot of things I don't understand too. I don't understand how someone with an eating disorder sees themself as fat when they might be all skin and bones, but brains are weird things and nobody understands them 100%.
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Old 08-12-11, 09:47 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

I can see where you're coming from, and I have to say I do agree with some points you've made. I feel very strongly that the unnatural environment we are living in today presents unique stressors that human beings haven't had to deal with 20, 30, 100 years ago and further back.
I have a suspicion that there is a dependency on "energy" in general - like when the fetus is developing in a woman's body, but she keeps drinking coffee and soda, that goes into the development of a human being, and when the child is allowed to drink caffeinated beverages, this contributes to a "dependency" on stimulants. But that's my small point of contribution.
I apologize for not choosing the field of science to dedicate my life to, and therefore sounding like a "retard" to you. I'm not angry and am not violently defending my point of view.
I really don't even want to get involved in the argument, but I'm glad to see that the other side of the argument for ADD/ADHD is being presented, and I hope the MODs and other people on this site will allow someone to express their opinion on the subject, rather than fascistically removing this post simply because it goes against a scientific diagnosis they received from a medical professional...
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Old 08-12-11, 09:48 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

Quote:
Originally Posted by johng123 View Post
Of course autism exists, it has nothing to do with self-control.
I'm not discussing anything to do with self control. Prove autism exists, the only proof I have of autism being real is that my little brother is in a special unit of his school with 11 other equally weird kids. Who's to say they're not just strange?
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Old 08-12-11, 09:51 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

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I'm not discussing anything to do with self control. Prove autism exists,
No, thats another red herring.
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Old 08-12-11, 09:53 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

Wow you really love that word. Anything you can't answer you call a red herring! Clever!!
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Old 08-12-11, 09:55 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

If it doesn't exist, and your such an expert, why are you posting on a forum like this, why not challenge someone like the board of psychiatry and neurology, get the official point of view changed?
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Old 08-12-11, 09:55 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

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Wow you really love that word. Anything you can't answer you call a red herring! Clever!!
u mad?
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Old 08-12-11, 09:56 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

If only I could read all that...
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Old 08-12-11, 09:57 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

HAHA knew it.

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Old 08-12-11, 10:00 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

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If it doesn't exist, and your such an expert, why are you posting on a forum like this, why not challenge someone like the board of psychiatry and neurology, get the official point of view changed?
Because I found this place first and I can get responses here, and I didn't know about that website. Thanks for the link though.

And pixie, don't be so mad that you don't know what red herring means. Just look it up.
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Old 08-12-11, 10:02 AM
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Re: ADD/ADHD does not exist

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Because I found this place first and I can get responses here, and I didn't know about that website. Thanks for the link though.
OK, I see what this is then. Well since it's such an important subject for you to refute, I strongly urge you to save the country from this viral social affliction, they have a contact link on their website. Please help us!
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