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  #121  
Old 02-15-12, 01:58 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

The shift's for energy/metabolism

- rather than structure/metabolism.

Overall I think we'd describe the change from
high carb, high fat (omega-6), high animal protein
->- to ->-
close to zero carb, low (because fat contains so much energy) fat (omega-3/saturated), low vegetable protein (slowly metabolized) -

- with a goal of hitting a total number of calories, far lower than currently advocated.

More details when I've settled on a calorie count.

I think that the rather significant trade-off is that we're theta EEG (feel stress outside theta EEG) restricted, which isn't a bad thing other than in *this* world of ego, speech, stealing from one's neighbour, lying to acquire more ever more.
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  #122  
Old 02-15-12, 02:28 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

I don't think that 'carbs' are a valid food for man.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0326095632.htm

"When carbohydrates were restricted, study subjects spontaneously reduced their caloric intake to a level appropriate for their height ... ..."

20g daily.

That's a slice of bread and you've blown your allowance.
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  #123  
Old 02-15-12, 02:38 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

That's Atkins/Scarsdale.

Its a good way to shed excess weight fast, but NOT sustainable lifelong.

You cannot live in a state of ketosis. You get sick and die.
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  #124  
Old 02-15-12, 02:53 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

Is anybody ever going to try to provide an alternative explanation for ADHD ?

It's just that 'it's not that' doesn't really do it for me.

I'm prepared to completely reject all of my posts if someone can offer a simple explanation of
Where ADD has come from ?
Why it has arrived ?
Describing why we have problems ?
What those problems are ?
Describing the solution ?

As far as I can see, I have answers/solutions to all of those questions and a large number more, thanks to Stabile.

The general idea is that the simplest, most explanatory model wins.

The simplest, most explanatory model has been defined.

Noting that I have no vested interest in this basic idea being correct.

I only want to know the correct solution.
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  #125  
Old 02-15-12, 02:58 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis
Quote:
It has been argued that the Inuit lived for thousands of years on a diet that would have been ketogenic, and there are many documented cases of modern humans living in these societies for extended periods of time ... ...
I'm not going to argue for <20g carbs until I've personal experience to back up the idea.

It's certainly difficult to shed the addiction to blood glucose elevation.
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  #126  
Old 02-15-12, 04:17 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SB_UK View Post
Is anybody ever going to try to provide an alternative explanation for ADHD ?

It's just that 'it's not that' doesn't really do it for me.

I'm prepared to completely reject all of my posts if someone can offer a simple explanation of
Where ADD has come from ?
Why it has arrived ?
Describing why we have problems ?
What those problems are ?
Describing the solution ?

As far as I can see, I have answers/solutions to all of those questions and a large number more, thanks to Stabile.

The general idea is that the simplest, most explanatory model wins.

The simplest, most explanatory model has been defined.

Noting that I have no vested interest in this basic idea being correct.

I only want to know the correct solution.
I would suggest looking into Dr. Russell Barkley.

"Where ADD has come from ? "

Either genetics or brain injury.

"Why it has arrived ?"

Genetics are complicated. But basically, genetic mutation happens, and then mutation is passed on. If the gene-holders don't die out, then it continues to be passed on.

Same for most other genetic human disorders.

There is no "reason" behind it. It just happens.

"Describing why we have problems ?"
Again, I would refer you to Dr. Barkley, but it has to do with certain areas of the brain that do not develop to function as well as they do in people without the disorder.

"What those problems are ?"

Trouble concentrating and staying focused

Hyperfocus/Perseveration

Disorganization and forgetfulness

Impulsivity

Emotional difficulties

Hyperactivity or restlessness

Problems with executive functioning, generally (self-control, long-term thinking and planning, etc.)

"Describing the solution ?"

Depending on the person, but usually a combination of medication, lifestyle changes and accommodations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SB_UK View Post
]The general idea is that the simplest, most explanatory model wins.

The simplest, most explanatory model has been defined.
Occam's razor doesn't work in your favor when the preponderance of evidence is on the side of something slightly more complex.

It would be nice if we could cure all disease by adopting a certain diet. I sure would rather not have ADHD.

But the science shows that the disorder is based on brain development, and therefore cannot be prevented or treated by changes in diet.

It can, however, be treated in the way I described above, medications and other treatments.

I don't see why matters need to be complicated with notions of evolution and gluten-based diets.

The causes and solutions to ADHD are known and well-established. Unless some new evidence comes to light that completely undermines the entire history of the study of ADHD, that won't change.
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  #127  
Old 02-15-12, 04:58 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

Stevia can be found in a store along with all the other sweeteners, so has been approved by the FDA, actually, your link is very old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevia#...t_availability

Quote:
Originally Posted by SB
We can't have our cake and eat it - actually literally.



i feel better

<style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> </style>
Quote:
Originally Posted by SB
{I am, Mount Athos is, C.elegans does} experience increased longevity/reduced susceptibility to disease during caloric restriction; I have already made these points on this thread and do not know why I'm being asked to make them again
Actually that has nothing to do with people who possess the elusive metabolic efficiency, so my concern remains. Are people who require caloric restriction (ie whose mother had nutritional and birthing issues) less susceptible to diseases, than those who have no such history and do not require caloric restriction?

Selection requires almost total extinction of any isolated population... That is how natural selection works. If there is no near total environmentally induced extermination, then there will not be selection taking place, in terms of long term transgenerational inheritance of genotypes and phenotypes. (?) Humans are highly mobile (unlike weeds, noting how quickly herbicide tolerant weeds are springing up), and tend to avert any long term famine situations. Why the Nazis could have never succeeded in breeding a perfect Aryan race.

Quote:
Why it has arrived ?
ADD arrived? It's nothing new that I know of. We have seen it described for millenia, to be abstract, but the question you ask is quite abstract, and your solutions. . You are falling for an illusion of linearity.. Have you accounted for the relatively recent emergence of scientific revolution in culture?

Pechemigonne, I have to say, for the most part you are a clear thinker. I am not going to say that ADD can't be treated with diet, though. I can't throw that out entirely. For instance, not eating regularly or enough will have an effect on your cognition. Just stop eating for a week and see how well your medications work, and how attentive you are, how well you sleep, etc.

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  #128  
Old 02-16-12, 03:05 AM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

I'm sorry - I really, really, really can't understand the point you're making.

[1] I'm suggesting that there's a selection pressure (throughout the evolution of life - where food has been (and continues to be) difficult to acquire) which will select for metabolic efficiency in the interests of ensuring survival.
[2] We know that the mechanism exists (Sapolsky, Dutch Hunger Winter).
[3] We know that the mechanism persists (Pembrey, SGP paper).
[4] We're pretty sure that the consequences of these changes (Sapolsky, 'stingy' with blood sugar and fat) that these changes will maximize survival potential in times of little food availability.
[5] We know that lower levels of blood sugar and fat result in increased longevity/lower incidence of disease (paper referenced by Qinkin on a previous thread (?? Mercola/Japanese centenarians ??)).
[6] My personal experience of ADHD is that it's caused by
metabolic efficiency
&
a massively increased stress-sensitivity (which occurs as a direct consequence of metabolic efficiency).
[7] My personal observation is that metabolic efficiency - can be read as the switch from facultative to obligate aerobic respiration.


I'm pretty sure - since I'm only using your references in the argument above (from TZM III, Sapolsky and the Mercola site) - that you know all of this ??????

Do I have to keep repeating it ?

There's every chance that I'm missing something - but I can't work out what that is, unless you point it out using simple language.

I haven't been able to understand any of your last 5 or so posts.
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  #129  
Old 02-16-12, 04:59 AM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

Been thinking ... ... ...

All that is needed to make sense of ADHD is to make the connection between it and metabolic change/transition.

The rest is really easy to work out (in outline) by yourself.

By anybody who cares.

I can't keep repeating this basic point and then answering questions like -
what's the middle name of the third of 300 children who're destined to die of starvation today ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-dev...e-the-children
Quote:
"Every hour of every day 300 children die from malnutrition-related causes simply because they don't get to eat the basic, nutritious foods that we [can but don't purchase] in the UK."
I really don't know his/her middle name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the pattern of questions being asked on the forum
Why don't you know their name ?
Well - how do you know they're dead then ?
But they don't have birth certificates in poor countries - so who knows their name ?
If they don't have names, then they're not really dead then, are they ?
Who's to say that they're not sleeping ?
-*-

Once again - if you're going to persist in playing word games - then let's work out what all people agree on.

All people agree that you need food + shelter.

So ensure that all people have food + shelter.

And watch on as ADHD (disorder) ceases to be a problem.

-*-

Word-games aren't useful here.
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  #130  
Old 02-16-12, 05:11 AM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

ADHD people forget to eat and burn down the house etc.

It will still be a problem.
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  #131  
Old 02-16-12, 11:52 AM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

Individuals do not evolve. Species evolve, especially in geographically restricted areas with the same environmental factors that influence reproductive selection and survival to reproductive age. This takes many generations, and the length of objective time it takes depends on the time between generations of the species in question. What we do to ourselves may have no impact whatsoever on even our offspring, much less our species as a whole. If it does, we will not be around long enough to see it.

As for diet and disease, well, in order to claim that diet offers resistance, one must first reject the germ theory. We have examples all over of people who adhere to overall "healthy lifestyles" that include avoidance of vaccination for communicable diseases. Despite depending on a mostly vegetarian, mostly organic diet, supplements promoted as immune system strengtheners, and regular outdoor activity, these folks are the primary source of the resurgence in Measles and Pertussis. I'm sure that if you exposed anyone to a highly communicable disease, even if they assiduously followed any of these lifestyles that supposedly confer higher resistance to disease, he/she would become ill.

If you get bitten by a diseased tick, you are highly likely to get the Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever or Lyme disease it carries. If you get bitten by a diseased mosquito and haven't been vaccinated, you won't be able to avoid malaria. If you are bitten by a rabid animal, the rabies virus will make you sick.

None of the bacteria or viruses that cause disease are blockaded by what you eat or how much you exercise. Genetics and medical treatment may affect how severe your case is, and if you start off in good health you might have an easier recovery. Causation has been established with these diseases, and the only preventives are vaccination and/or contact avoidance.

There are plenty of good reasons to eat healthy and exercise - and even to examine the effect of certain foods on your personal quality of life - but none of them have anything to do with evolution, and few with disease resistance. I would focus on the ones with the stronger supportable claims.
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  #132  
Old 02-16-12, 02:29 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

I think Amtram and Abi have been making really good points, so if you can't address it, then it's time to go back to the drawing board.. I'm already there working on it. I can respect that you desire to work on this until it is checked and verified by the scientific community. Am I wrong to assume that? You think this is all your effort? Everyone is trying to better understand this. There are flaws and bias in your reasoning, and people are taking the time and effort to revise it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SB
I'm sorry - I really, really, really can't understand the point you're making.
Because why? This?::
Quote:
[6] My personal experience of ADHD is that it's caused by
metabolic efficiency
&
a massively increased stress-sensitivity (which occurs as a direct consequence of metabolic efficiency).
That's precisely what I meant what I said you were biased, so now you know. I apologize for forgetting to make that clear from before. And you are kind of avoiding my questions concerning your state, (weight/height).. Stabile, someone who is not a scientist, nor one that I know of, is the person you are basing all this logic upon. It is precisely word games that you are playing here. You have had no correspondence with that couple, so for all I know, they have abandoned the notions they put forth years ago.

Quote:
All people agree that you need food + shelter.

So ensure that all people have food + shelter.

And watch on as ADHD (disorder) ceases to be a problem.
And you assume that in patients, ADHD will show a cessation or continuation, when those 2 variables are controlled for.

Quote:
[2] We know that the mechanism exists (Sapolsky, Dutch Hunger Winter).
[3] We know that the mechanism persists (Pembrey, SGP paper).
[4] We're pretty sure that the consequences of these changes (Sapolsky, 'stingy' with blood sugar and fat) that these changes will maximize survival potential in times of little food availability.
We don't know that the mechanism is consistent with ADHD patients. We don't know how long the mechanism persists. We aren't pretty sure that these changes maximize survival potential in times of little food availability, nor the extent to which it would do this.

I understand exactly what you are saying, it's not that I don't understand, it's that I can't believe it is true concerning the majority of people diagnosed with ADHD. The fact is, nobody is requesting that you to repeat these things over and over, but that you are doing it yourself.
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  #133  
Old 02-16-12, 02:31 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

Who pays for the vaccine ?

That's the basic problem.

I can see the definition of a local sustainable community in terms of food/shelter, in all parts of the world.

I can't see local sustainable communities (in the poorer parts of the world) having the money to pay for vaccines.

If the people who need it, can't get it - then what's the point ???

If the people that get it, are going to die anyway from malnutrition related disease, then what's the point ?

The point I'm making is food/shelter first.
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Old 02-16-12, 02:33 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qinkin View Post
~
What is ADHD ?
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Old 02-16-12, 02:38 PM
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Re: Dietary roots of diseases and disorders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qinkin View Post
And you are kind of avoiding my questions concerning your state, (weight/height)..
Why are you playing games ?
All of that information was in the link.

This whole exercise is becoming tiresome.

If you understand the various points I've just made
- I'm not asking you to accept them

- then that's all I'm after.

-*-

That's the big picture to ADHD; there is no more - that's all people need to know.

-*-

I can't fill in the fine detail - because people're playing word games instead of helping.

Exactly like asking for information which has already been provided.

It's just not funny.
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