Psychological Testing for ADHD

[TheChemicals]

If i was all famous and renowned like Barkley i would invent a more applicable adhd test. If your 30+ and arent dead you would get a high score but if you are 30+ and have a job and a decent bank account, you would get even higher score.

Intellect is ovverated and so are psycholojimacal testingz. You are either a brain surgeon or you are in the same boat as the rest of the 90% of the planet- average/above avg/exceptional.---which are all the same sht except you can probably guess better as exceptional than the average scored guy.

The day someone can blast me with a brain-ray, i will respect high intelligence as a practical trait worthy of saving your life. IN the meantime, its just another form of vanity.....or worse a crutch on your soul when you think you arent smart enough

[spc123]

It's funny the methods we come up with to do things. I remember a woman I know telling me about her son learning math, and saying how they have been using some of the old "New Math" set theory principles. Basically instead of memorizing multiplication tables, they were being taught to break down the equation into steps. A very simple example would be, instead of 12 x 12 = 144, it's 12 x 12 = 12 x 10 + 12 x 2 = 120 + 24 = 144.

I have been doing math in my head like this for as long as I can remember. In fact I have no idea how you'd work with numbers like 137 x 152 in your head WITHOUT breaking it down.

137 x 152 = 137 x 100 + 137 x 50 + 137 x 2
137 x 100 = 13,700. 137 x 50 is half of 137 x 100
Half of 13,700 is 5000 + 1500 + 350 = 6850.
13,700 + 6850 = (13000 + 6000) + (700 + 800) + 50 = 19,000 + 1500 + 50 = 20,550
Then you have 137 x 2 which is 200 + 60 + 14 = 274
274 is kinda cumbersome so we'll call it 250 + 24
20,550 + 250 = 20,800
20,800 + 24 = 20,824

I know that seems like a lot of work, but once you get used to it you can blow through that in your head in about 5 seconds. The psychologist who did my testing said I completed the math section faster than anyone she'd ever seen. She said I hit the score ceiling and we'd have to do more advanced testing to determine my actual proficiency. All I did was break stuff out in my head just like I illustrated above. The most complicated multiplication and division can be made so simple a grade school student could do it.

[ana futura]

Originally Posted by spc123

It's funny the methods we come up with to do things. I remember a woman I know telling me about her son learning math, and saying how they have been using some of the old "New Math" set theory principles. Basically instead of memorizing multiplication tables, they were being taught to break down the equation into steps. A very simple example would be, instead of 12 x 12 = 144, it's 12 x 12 = 12 x 10 + 12 x 2 = 120 + 24 = 144.

I have been doing math in my head like this for as long as I can remember. In fact I have no idea how you'd work with numbers like 137 x 152 in your head WITHOUT breaking it down.

137 x 152 = 137 x 100 + 137 x 50 + 137 x 2
137 x 100 = 13,700. 137 x 50 is half of 137 x 100
Half of 13,700 is 5000 + 1500 + 350 = 6850.
13,700 + 6850 = (13000 + 6000) + (700 + 800) + 50 = 19,000 + 1500 + 50 = 20,550
Then you have 137 x 2 which is 200 + 60 + 14 = 274
274 is kinda cumbersome so we'll call it 250 + 24
20,550 + 250 = 20,800
20,800 + 24 = 20,824

I would struggle with just multiplying 137 x 2 in my head. How on earth can you hold onto so much information? You weren't medicated during the testing, correct?

I do mental arithmetic by "writing" numbers on the table or in the air with my fingers. If I do this, I can "see" them long enough to solve the problem.

I have to a have a visual image of some kind to do math. I would always solve word problems in school by drawing a visual representation of the problem.

[ana futura]

Originally Posted by Drewbacca

I made the mistake of going to a school on the trimester system. Three classes (instead of the semester four) and ten weeks. By the time I even begin to find my grove around week 6 we are already moving towards a final with the midterm in the rearview mirror. It's killer for me and I can't keep up. I'm moving to part time if I manage to stay at this school. Once I get my gpa back up, I'll evaluate what I have left credit wise and probably go back to the semester system to finish. I can handle up to 15 credits on the S.S., because it's spaced out enough that I can prioritize and reprioritize as necessary. With the trimesters, I simply don't get anything done.

So interesting that you feel this way. I loved the quarter system, because it kept me from getting bored, and I would get the end of the semester rush of activity 3 times a year instead of 2. I also didn't have as much time to fall so far behind.

I usually start out strong in classes, and slowly get more and more behind on my work, until I'm drowing. Transfering to a school with quarters made things much easier for me.

[spc123]

I admit it's much harder when I am distracted, but I have always been pretty comfortable inside my own head. As long as I can internalize a concept, and understand it, I do pretty well. There are certainly times when I have to repeat the process 5 or 6 times because I keep getting distracted and forgetting my place. Sitting in a quiet office without distraction makes it simple.

I should mention that practice is key. I spend 30 minutes a day (on average) doing mental mathematics. I have a game on my tablet called Math Blaster (I think) which presents you with instructions, one on the screen at a time, that will say "Start with 7" "Add 9" "Divide by 2" and so on for 20 steps, then ask for the answer. Practice, practice, practice!! I also play puzzle games on my phone like "Unblock Me" that help with spacial awareness. I've done 3800 of those puzzles over the past 6 weeks. Plus messing with this stuff saves lives. If I didn't have these little games to occupy my mind while waiting in the doctors office or standing in a line, I fear what might happen.

[spc123]

Originally Posted by ana futura

I do mental arithmetic by "writing" numbers on the table or in the air with my fingers. If I do this, I can "see" them long enough to solve the problem.

I have to a have a visual image of some kind to do math. I would always solve word problems in school by drawing a visual representation of the problem.

My fiancee is an expert in early childhood development, sport education and special needs. She explained to me once the various styles of learning, and how some people are visual learners while others are verbal. More than that, some people are musical learners. If you tell them something they don't grasp it, but if you SING it to them, they get it right away. It's very fascinating, but goes to show how suboptimal our standardized school systems are. It also goes to show how understanding ourselves, and developing the tools that work for us, can mean the difference between learning and failing.

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by ana futura

So interesting that you feel this way. I loved the quarter system, because it kept me from getting bored, and I would get the end of the semester rush of activity 3 times a year instead of 2. I also didn't have as much time to fall so far behind.

I usually start out strong in classes, and slowly get more and more behind on my work, until I'm drowing. Transfering to a school with quarters made things much easier for me.

Keep in mind that I'm heavy on the science classes although I'm more naturally inclined to the arts and humanities. That makes for a steeper learning curve.
Add to that my anxiety and PTSD and the "need" to know each and every concept perfectly for fear of being ridiculed.

But then, everyone is different too. 137x2 is easy for me. I'm pretty good with the mental math. I might end up using my fingers as place holders for tens or something, but even 137x137 isn't that hard. I've been practicing mental math since I was a kid though. I had an audio series on mental math when I was about 12 and I've been practicing ever since.

[Slo-mo a-go-go]

Originally Posted by Drewbacca

I don't think this mattered as much 100 years ago, but now new advances pretty much require some grad level degrees and most of the best qualified will never get there to contribute.

Actually 100 yrs ago is when the IQ test and its results were hijacked. It's scienctific intentions and validity were corrupted and twisted by eugenics. Culturally, we're still feel the effects the mis-appropriation of the Intelligence Quotient test the early 1900's.

---- I've spend 6+hrs yesterday writing this reply but it's so interesting to me (studying history & its cultural legacy) & the IQ test is a great example.... and there's a silver lining to tell abt if asked, but I have to dig myself out of this hyper-focused hole. Today spent 7 hrs, 13 hrs total.

So I need to just post this now and let the thread do it's thing and save the rest for another time.....

This quote from Wikipedia - "Intelligence quotient" is the really main eye-opening part.

"The eugenics movement in the USA seized on [the IQ test] as a means to give them credibility in diagnosing mental retardation, and thousands of American women, most of them poor African-Americans, were forcibly sterilized based on their scores on IQ tests, often without their consent or knowledge."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient

This misuse was the norm in US federal & state public policy until the civil rights movement. Even as IQ tests were being rewritten to remove bias, the cultural legacy lingers. I'm 33 and the standardized tests I took in school prefaced by "you are more that test result" speech, plus my parents would only boast abt our grades, never SAT or IQ test.

[fracturedstory]

Originally Posted by spc123

It's funny the methods we come up with to do things. I remember a woman I know telling me about her son learning math, and saying how they have been using some of the old "New Math" set theory principles. Basically instead of memorizing multiplication tables, they were being taught to break down the equation into steps. A very simple example would be, instead of 12 x 12 = 144, it's 12 x 12 = 12 x 10 + 12 x 2 = 120 + 24 = 144.

I have been doing math in my head like this for as long as I can remember. In fact I have no idea how you'd work with numbers like 137 x 152 in your head WITHOUT breaking it down.

137 x 152 = 137 x 100 + 137 x 50 + 137 x 2
137 x 100 = 13,700. 137 x 50 is half of 137 x 100
Half of 13,700 is 5000 + 1500 + 350 = 6850.
13,700 + 6850 = (13000 + 6000) + (700 + 800) + 50 = 19,000 + 1500 + 50 = 20,550
Then you have 137 x 2 which is 200 + 60 + 14 = 274
274 is kinda cumbersome so we'll call it 250 + 24
20,550 + 250 = 20,800
20,800 + 24 = 20,824

I know that seems like a lot of work, but once you get used to it you can blow through that in your head in about 5 seconds. The psychologist who did my testing said I completed the math section faster than anyone she'd ever seen. She said I hit the score ceiling and we'd have to do more advanced testing to determine my actual proficiency. All I did was break stuff out in my head just like I illustrated above. The most complicated multiplication and division can be made so simple a grade school student could do it.

I can only break it down when on meds otherwise there's too many steps and I'm impatient for an answer, and don't much like maths anyway.

But at least I know how they do it on Letters and Numbers. It's a TV game show to do with working on math questions and making up words. I am very obsessed with it, even if in my wearing off medication state all I can do is just stare at the screen and be extremely confused until the contestants answer the questions.

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by Slo-mo a-go-go

Actually 100 yrs ago is when the IQ test and its results were hijacked. It's scienctific intentions and validity were corrupted and twisted by eugenics. Culturally, we're still feel the effects the mis-appropriation of the Intelligence Quotient test the early 1900's.

---- I've spend 6+hrs yesterday writing this reply but it's so interesting to me (studying history & its cultural legacy) & the IQ test is a great example.... and there's a silver lining to tell abt if asked, but I have to dig myself out of this hyper-focused hole. Today spent 7 hrs, 13 hrs total.

I've hyper focused on some pretty stupid stuff. The lost time seems to be about average! What can I say, it happens.

The funny part is that you went off on a tangent for something completely unrelated to what I said in your quotes. I was referring to intelligence in general and not the IQ test when I suggested that it was different 100 years ago.

What I was trying to say was:
There are different types of intelligence and learning styles.
Current academics caters to sequential learners and strong memorization.
Some of the brightest potential scientists are spatial and have terrible memorization skills.
The current system prevents bright potential scientists from realizing their skills and creativity because they can't compete with the sequential learners or memorize as well for tests (i.e. cram and braindump).
In other words, the innovators aren't the ones making it to the top anymore, but the tape-recorders are.

100 years ago, having a decent lab was within reach to most scientists.
Modern research, in many cases, is cost prohibitive.
Want to work in a cutting edge facility, you need a PhD.
What I'm trying to say is that the degree is more important than ever if you want to be a researcher, but the degree itself isn't a measure of overall intelligence.

[Slo-mo a-go-go]

Originally Posted by Drewbacca

I've hyper focused on some pretty stupid stuff. The lost time seems to be about average! What can I say, it happens.

The funny part is that you went off on a tangent for something completely unrelated to what I said in your quotes. I was referring to intelligence in general and not the IQ test when I suggested that it was different 100 years ago.

What I was trying to say was:

Thank you so much for being understanding abt my post.

Thanks for restating your point. and steering posts back on course!
Wish I could reply to the point you raised but I scared the tangent gremlin will get me again!

PS, in school, my best essays/ written assignments were all on the wrong subject, but i would end up getting A's on them bc my teachers were so surprised to get a well written/ fully researched paper from me they were afraid to "shut me down" by giving me a failing grade bc it was not the assigned topic!

[mctavish23]

fyi,

I don't know how many times I've posted on this, but for what it's worth, here it goes

again :

There are NO TESTS of ANY kind, deemed appropriate or accepted for the sole purpose

of diagnosing ADHD.

Check out some of Dizfriz's excellent posts on this, as well as some guy named Robert.


tc

mctavish23

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by mctavish23

fyi,
I don't know how many times I've posted on this, but for what it's worth, here it goes again :
There are NO TESTS of ANY kind, deemed appropriate or accepted for the sole purpose of diagnosing ADHD.

Did someone say that there was? I'm confused by your comment.
I didn't think we were talking about a test for the sole purpose of diagnosing ADHD.

Certainly tests designed to verify that a different disorder is not present is worthwhile so I don't understand the hostility to testing?

[mctavish23]

It's not personal.

You've accurately defined the real purpose of psych. testing ...comorbidities.

Imagine being a child psychologist, with ADHD.

Now think about working in a clinic for 28 + years, the last 9 of which your boss

(i.e., Clinical Director) refuses to read the Clinical Guidelines for Diagnosing ADHD.

He then makes up his own set of "rules," whereby test scores are the standard.

Worse yet, your dumb *** colleagues follow along blindly, doing the same.

Unfortunately,that is actually the "norm" in many places around the country.

There, hope that explains it for you.

tc

[spc123]

As I said several times, my testing via WAIS was combined with other testing, which was only one part of the process which also involved a detailed history, screening questionnaires, job history, grades from k-12, university transcript, teacher comments, writing samples, financial history, relationship history, driving history, and many other things.

The test was just one part. It was explained to me that the test can't exclude ADHD. In other words if you do perfectly well and consistently in each and every portion of the test, that doesn't imply that you do not have ADHD. However it CAN be used as positive confirmation. Not the ONLY confirmation, but one aspect to be combined with everything else. If you do well overall on the test, but do poorly in areas related to planning, impulse control and/or attention, that is an indication that something is impacting these areas of function.

In my case, the testing clearly showing a very large and significant variation between my general intelligence, and my performance on impulse, attention and planning. This doesn't PROVE I have ADHD, but it IS positive evidence. When combined with the rest of my documentation, history and symptoms, a diagnosis for ADHD can be made. Even then it's still subjective, but when it comes to getting help with school, or if I ever move to a new city and have to see a new doctor who might believe ADHD is over diagnosed (as many do) I can show a clear report taking into account ALL possible indicators, testing included.