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Old 08-02-12, 01:15 AM
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Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

Holy mother of ... watch this.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7smSmXwtZQ8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Old 08-02-12, 02:04 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

*puts tape over my mouth in order to not say mmeppmmphhh you so
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Old 08-02-12, 02:51 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

This is not particularly surprising to me. I appreciate that he explicitly said that ADHD does not contribute to psychopathy.
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Old 08-02-12, 08:30 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

I think Dr.Barkley is confusing Conduct Disorder, SCT and psychopathy,

with different psychological reactions,

to different severities emotional pain,

on emotionally sensitive individuals.




If 1 out of 5 people with conduct disorder and ADHD are psychopaths.

Then what type of ADHD,

does the other 4 out of 5 children,

with Conduct disorder and ADHD have,

that are not psychopaths.


Out of any information I have ever heard,

that would miss represent,

misinform and sterotype ADHDers.

this would be it.


And I get crap for trying to identify and promote a stronger less stressful relationship,

between ADHD youth and the parents.


Consider the sterotype that could come out of this misinformation,

everytime a child with ADHD acts out and is involved with lying, stealing, fighting, and hurting other children.

according to Dr.Barkley.

I could be a psychopath.

I`m lucky I never got caught.


All children,

with or without ADHD,

steal, lie, fight and hurt other children.


What the old DSM and any new DSM ,

should seriously consider adding to any criteria,

is the different effects of emotional pain,

during emotionally stressful circumstances,

to particularly sensitive children.

(especially during early infancy and childhood development.)


ADHD is a lack of (emotional) self regulation.

ADHD infants and young children are very sensitive

and are easily effected by emotionally circumstances during early development.


Emotional Pain becomes amplified in the minds of people with ADHD.


Dr.Barkley says milder combined ( is one or two symptoms short)

Why would ADD (inattentive) not be considered a milder form of ADHD(combined)


The description of SCT sounds like ADD to me..

(have a attention problem)(problem processing information) (problem focused attention,)(problem choosing what is important)




IF Conduct Disorder without ADHD = (no psychopathy)

IF ADHD without Conduct Disorder = (no psychopathy)


ADHD and Conduct Disorder together = (1 in 5 have psychopathy)


How do we know that ADHD,

does not lead to psychopathy,

and conduct disorder does.


(I don`t agree with any of this psychopath ,

is ADHD and Conduct disorder conclusion,

from a treatment perspective,

it doesn`t help the children at all.)


I think psychopathy is the result of sever neglect.

Makes ADHD worse,

and conduct disorder is the result,






.


.
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Old 08-02-12, 08:51 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita View Post
I think Dr.Barkley is confusing Conduct Disorder, SCT and psychopathy,

with a psychological reaction to emotional pain,

on emotionally sensitive individuals.
He's really not. Everything he says in that video is validated by research. A significant percentage (not a majority) of children with ADHD have conduct disorder, and a significant percentage of them (also not a majority) qualify as psychopaths by adulthood.

He doesn't even mention SCT in relation to psychopathy, and says that it is not ADHD-PI, that it is instead diagnosed as such because that's the only attention-related diagnosis that can fit. He also said that there is no true "ADHD-PI" type, that ADHD-PH doesn't even exist, and everyone is essentially either combined type or subclinically combined type (as in missing the combined diagnosis by one symptom, as I do).

This stuff has nothing to do with emotional pain.

Quote:
If 1 out of 5 people with conduct disorder and ADHD are psychopaths.

Then what type of ADHD,

does the other 4 out of 5 children,

with Conduct disorder and ADHD have that are not psychopaths.
They have ADHD with conduct disorder.

Quote:
All child with or without ADHD steal, lie, fight and hurt other children.
This is not a valid argument. Read the criteria for conduct disorder and see how it differs from the typical levels of stealing, lying, and fighting.

Quote:
What the old DSM and any new DSM should really add to any criteria,

is the different effects of emotional pain,

during emotionally stressful circumstances,

to particularly sensitive children especially during early development.
I think I see where you're going and I do not think there's any great body of research that supports this interpretation of ADHD. To my knowledge, it's primarily promoted by Dr. Gabor Mate, and my understanding is that his views are not influential in the DSM-5 revision for ADHD. I know you feel they are helpful to you, but I honestly think that Mate is running in circles, trying to find a new way to sell a new, more broadly defined "refrigerator mother" hypothesis.

ADHD is not caused by emotional pain, although trauma can cause symptoms very similar to ADHD. PTSD has a lot of symptom overlap with ADHD.

Quote:
ADHD is a lack of emotional regulation.

ADHD infants and young children are very sensitive and are easily effected by emotionally circumstances.

Emotional Pain becomes amplified in the minds of people with ADHD.
ADHD is, among other things, a lack of emotional regulation. It is also a lack of self-regulation in general, leading to the inattentive, hyperactive, and impulsive symptoms as described in the DSM-IV and soon the DSM-5.

I don't know that emotional pain becomes amplified. My understanding is that emotions are more raw and less filtered, but not necessarily more intense.

Quote:
Dr.Barkley says milder combined ( is one or two symptoms short)

Why would ADD (inattentive) not be considered a milder form of ADHD(combined)
Barkley said ADHD-PI is considered a milder form of ADHD-C. He also said that having just the inattentive symptoms without any hyperactive or impulsive symptoms is not something he believes is ADHD. That he instead believes it is SCT - sluggish cognitive tempo. He also said that not everyone agrees to this. Some think that SCT is a form of ADHD, which is currently how it will appear in the DSM-5.

Quote:
The description of SCT sounds like ADD to me..

(have a attention problem)(problem processing information) (problem focused attention,)(problem choosing what is important)
Barkley says that ADHD is always present with impulsiveness and hyperactivity, and SCT does not present with impulsiveness and hyperactivity - in fact he says it is very much the opposite. Hypoactivity, daydreaming, etc. The stuff that people diagnosed with ADHD-PI seem to think is ADHD-PI, but apparently may very well not be ADHD-PI because ADHD-PI apparently is a diagnostic artifact of people becoming less hyperactive over time.

Quote:
IF Conduct Disorder without ADHD = (no psychopathy)

IF ADHD without Conduct Disorder = (no psychopathy)

ADHD and Conduct Disorder together = (1 in 5 have psychopathy)

How do we know that ADHD,

does not lead to psychopathy,

and conduct disorder does.
Statistics. People who have ADHD by itself have rates of psychopathy similar to the general population. People who have ADHD + CD have a rate of 20% developing psychopathy, which is something like 40 times the rate for the general population. This is a significant difference.
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Old 08-02-12, 08:57 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

Interesting.

I am a bit confused regarding SCT and ADHD-PI.

The way I understand ADHD, it's an output disorder whereas SCT is an input disorder, where people have trouble with processing information. But then you can be inattentive as a result of output problems, isn't it? I mean if you can process information but have trouble paying enough attention to let that information enter your brain in the first place, then what would that be?
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Old 08-02-12, 09:03 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy12 View Post
Interesting.

I am a bit confused regarding SCT and ADHD-PI.

The way I understand ADHD, it's an output disorder whereas SCT is an input disorder, where people have trouble with processing information. But then you can be inattentive as a result of output problems, isn't it? I mean if you can process information but have trouble paying enough attention to let that information enter your brain in the first place, then what would that be?
You would have ADHD and you probably have 4-5 hyperactive/impulsive symptoms - just short of what you need to qualify for a combined diagnosis. What Barkley is saying is that presenting with the actual inattentive symptoms without any of the hyperactive/impulsive symptoms does not happen. If that appears to be the case, then you have SCT instead. Which may or may not be ADHD depending on which expert you ask.
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Old 08-02-12, 09:19 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

Everything about ADHD is emotional pain.

There is a complete denial of anything emotional.

Dont tell the parents.

I might hurt their fellings.

Forget about the chilldren.

Its all genes,

my mistake.

I am acting like a jerk because,

I have the jerk gene.

Life experiences have nothing to do with emotional development.

Praise Barkley.





What a bunch of crap.
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Old 08-02-12, 09:33 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

I did not deny that there was anything emotional about ADHD. I agreed that it involves emotional dysregulation.

I didn't claim that life experiences have nothing to do with emotional development, nor did Barkley make such a claim. Not centering ADHD on the emotional experience does not mean abject denial. This isn't a black and white "either it is 100% or it has nothing to do with it" thing. Emotions are clearly impacted, and Barkley talks about emotional processing in people with ADHD in the CADDAC videos. He also writes about it extensively.

I would disagree that everything about ADHD is emotional pain. The consequences of impairments often lead to emotional pain, but emotional pain doesn't cause me to forget what I'm doing right in the middle of doing it, nor does it make it hard for me to focus on one task for any length of time. Emotional pain doesn't make me impulsive or restless. Emotional pain causing those things sounds a lot more like post-traumatic stress disorder.

I also do not recall anyone stating that it's "all genetic." My reasons for stating what I did had nothing to do with hurting parents' feelings or not. As far as Mate's theories, he's going down the rabbit hole. The thing is the premise for his "ADHD is caused by environmental stress" is based on the idea that modern Western civilization is more stressful than it's ever been, but the opposite is actually true. Modern society is significantly less stressful overall than even 1950, let alone 1900, the 1800s, the 1700s. His theory relies on some nostalgic idea that the "good old days" were better than now, but that's simply not the case.
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Old 08-02-12, 09:42 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

After reading a bit more and watching a bit more of Barkley it seems that he puts theories out there and then researchers then go away and either prove or disprove.

I see his comments as a theory and a challenge to researches to do so studies on this
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Old 08-02-12, 09:51 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita View Post

What a bunch of crap.
Also, was this really necessary? I disagreed with you, but I didn't attack your views or respond with sarcasm. Why this kind of response?
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Old 08-02-12, 10:13 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

Once again, I have to let this sink in and process a bit - I often find myself at odds with Barkley, even though I recognize that he usually has sound reasons for everything he says. This video is a small piece of a much larger picture, and what it looks like is that he's trying not to eliminate diagnoses, but make different ones with more specific criteria so that ADHD diagnoses aren't confounded by people who should be separated out because their symptoms indicate a comorbid condition that should NOT be included in ADHD symptomology.

There's undoubtedly a fair amount of relevant information that's been excluded from this clip.
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Old 08-02-12, 10:15 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by tudorose View Post

I see his comments as a theory and a challenge to researches to do so studies on this
To raise awareness, yes. But he isn't pulling these things out of his @&$ either. He's just presenting a summary of what the academic studies are currently investigating and sharing them with the popular audience.

Keep in mind that he's throwing out tidbits from the current discussion among his peers. These things haven't been settled in stone yet. It will be interesting to see what makes it into the DSM-V.
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Old 08-02-12, 10:18 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

The current DSM-5 criteria:

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision...n.aspx?rid=383

For the record, I don't agree with everything Barkley says, either. I don't even really know what to think about SCT.
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Old 08-02-12, 10:22 AM
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Re: Russell Barkley - ADHD - Self Control and DSM Subtypes

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca View Post
To raise awareness, yes. But he isn't pulling these things out of his @&$ either. He's just presenting a summary of what the academic studies are currently investigating and sharing them with the popular audience.
I wasn't saying he was pulling stuff out of his @$$. He's obviously drawn these conclusions from research however to get widespread acceptance more studies have to be done.

He raises some interesting points. Whether they are correct or not remains to be seen once further research has been done.

I find what he said interesting. And the research is necessary. The do need to find the reasons behind psychopathy. Whether they're looking in the right place I don't know.
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