The falsehood of intelligence, willpower, and perseverance.

[Fortune]

I don't mean that they do not exist, or that none of us has these things.

What I mean is people talk about using these to mitigate ADHD. Use your intelligence to work around the impairments. Just do it. Try harder. But this falls apart because all of this requires you to use the same executive functions that ADHD impairs.

That's why all the post-it notes and lists and schedules in the world probably won't help. That's why time management skills won't help. You can plan out or learn all the time management skills you want, but you won't be able to implement those strategies because ADHD is not about knowing what to do. It's about doing what you know.

ADHD prevents that, makes it harder to do what you know. So you can know everything there is about motivating yourself, about doing the work you need to do, but ADHD will still be in your way no matter which way you try to go. There's no going around it because you can't turn it off.

And as such, it makes rubbish advice. Telling people to try harder, to use their intellect to mitigate their impairments, to just do it, all those bland words of encouragement don't really help.

I am not saying that advice is useless. I am not saying that no one with ADHD can ever achieve anything. What I am saying is that the ADHD brain is terrible at using the systems necessary to apply intelligence, willpower, and perseverance.

[CheekyMonkey]

It is always that balance of making sure you are trying your hardest and realizing your limitations.

[Assumption]

Surely there's an important distinction here between trying harder and trying differently. E.g. avoid trying to work from home because you just get distracted too easily.

[CheekyMonkey]

Originally Posted by Sylvie

Surely there's an important distinction here between trying harder and trying differently. E.g. avoid trying to work from home because you just get distracted too easily.

Changing habits is extremely difficult for me. I can try differently, but it may only last a month. Very frustrating. It takes most people 21 days to form a habit. It takes me years.

[Fortune]

I prefer to avoid the notion of "trying one's hardest" because trying harder tends to leave me in a state of burnout.

[Assumption]

Originally Posted by CheekyMonkey

Changing habits is extremely difficult for me. I can try differently, but it may only last a month. Very frustrating. It takes most people 21 days to form a habit. It takes me years.

This is kinda what I was wondering about in that other thread I made. Earlier this year I managed to improve my work habits a lot for just over a month. Of course, we were under huge financial stress at the time, so the adrenaline would have been pumping. I also completely neglected all aspects of my life (including my wife and child, I slept 4-5 hours per day, and I quit all my hobbies). I think maybe I was hyperfocusing/perseverating. For me it seems to be 100% or 5%, and it's so hard to find that happy medium.

I've managed to do it other times too, with slightly more balanced and longer lasting results, but I always seem to backslide sooner or later.

(This is actually Sylvie's husband pker014 due to an account issue, long story)

[doiadhd]

Well said fortune.

[Drewbacca]

Two criticisms of your argument:

The gray area between legitimate ADHD and other disorders with adhd-like symptoms masks potential response.
The methods, suggestions, alternatives... they aren't 100% useless (and I realize that you said as much); it depends on the underlying cause.

I do believe that (to an extent) we can "re-wire" ourselves or find ways to adapt and work around the ED issues... but it's not a quick or easy fix. I do think with a long term strategy, some correction is possible. I refuse to believe that a knowledgeable parent is helpless to prepare an ADHD child for the things that we struggle with daily. I guess that I'm arguing that the severity can be reduced (although, obviously the ADHD will continue to be there)... I guess it also depends on if you want to define this as perseverance or not?

[Fortune]

I didn't say anything was 100% useless or that no one with ADHD could ever achieve anything. What I am saying is that there really isn't a way to mitigate impairment through cognitive strategies because the ability to devise and implement such strategies requires executive function.

I do not know what you mean by the gray area.

[Peripheral]

Where does floor time fit into the theory.

Why doesn't a floor time concept work for ADHD?

What about mindfulness (self awareness)?

Or stressed verses not stressed.

How does point of performance work?

There is lots of things people can do.

[Fortune]

This isn't a theory, I am stating what I understand to be the case.

I have no idea how floor time fits into this because I do not know enough about floor time to make any statements on it.

Mindfulness requires medication, otherwise it doesn't stick.

Point of performance is adequately covered by Barkley. It's an external motivation which works in ways that cognitive strategies do not, and once it's removed, the motivation is removed as well.

Please don't turn this thread into a discussion about ADHD's etiology.

[Assumption]

ADHD is along a continuum, though, right? People with ADHD don't have zero executive functioning - it's just impaired.

If "try harder" pushes a NT person from 100% to 105%, might it not push a person suffering from 20% to 21%? Pushing them to 100% would be a big ask, clearly. But still, some improvement has been made.

I don't really know, I'm trying to get my head around all this stuff.

I'm guessing that what you mean, Fortune, is that effort isn't likely to get someone from 20% to 100%.

[Verile]

"Okay, knowing that I probably have ADHD-PI has taken a weight off my shoulders. It makes my entire life make sense and it's helped me figure out how to cope with some day-to-day things because I have a better understanding of what's going on in my head when I set out to, say, cook a meal."

This is how I approach ADHD-PI. You've been diagnosed longer than me so just out of curiosity but do you not believe this any more?

[fracturedstory]

I burn out at least five days a week. It's definitely important to work differently within your limitations. Maybe it was more anxiety about change that led to a sort of regression but I think it's just like forcing yourself to keep trying when you know you're not capable of it.

I was even just in the middle of re-organising my clothes drawer (which is probably the tiniest one you ever saw) but I was almost physically exhausted when I was close to finishing.

I think it's important to keep trying, in little steps, with about 50 breaks a day. I just keep my pillow propped up against the wall of my bed so I can just collapse onto it when I've stretched my brain too far. Sometimes the lists fail or sometimes I actually follow them and have that sense of accomplishment (OMG, I managed to do everything on my list - even though it's nothing compared to what most people have to do everyday), and it's the only way I know to be organised.
I've got a pretty driven personality though. When I want to succeed I can show remarkable willpower (actual willpower; the type that helps you ignore distracting things that take you away from your goal).
However, no many people comment on me not trying my hardest. One person isn't medicated and another could do with a diagnosis. So it depends on who you're surrounded by.

I have difficulty seeing high IQ and ADHD being a problem, only because I don't experience it. Because some days I'm on medication and some days I'm not I can go from feeling above average intelligence, to average to having hardly a memory and just having such low intelligence it's not worth talking to people. So I'm on the other side of the spectrum with this whole IQ thing. Growing up I mean. It was never people telling me to try harder because I seemed intelligent, it was wondering what would become of this dim witted child in the future. They weren't exactly sensitive around me either.

But being told to try harder when you know what'll happen would suck. It's kind of like if someone asked me to go out for dinner in the city. Seeing how last time I had such extreme sensory overload and a seizure I'm not likely to say yes next time I'm asked.

One thing that has help me though (productive-wise) is to not do anything until you complete that one task. I used to find myself standing outside until I realised I had completely cleared my schedule for this one thing. I even go on internet bans. Well, I don't need to call them that anymore because I'm so used to them.

When I die I might give my brain to science to find out why I do become this committed and if it can be replicated for when brain transplants are about as common as organ transplants.

I'm not trying to sound better than anyone. I'm just confused that I can be this way despite having ADHD. Could be the autism but Fortune is on the spectrum too.

I usually do worse on Sundays without medication anyway so maybe I'll relate to this thread tomorrow.

[Fortune]

Originally Posted by Sylvie

ADHD is along a continuum, though, right? People with ADHD don't have zero executive functioning - it's just impaired.

Yes, it's impaired. It's impaired more for some than it is for others and this impairments counts for more than one's IQ score for determining how well one functions.

If "try harder" pushes a NT person from 100% to 105%, might it not push a person suffering from 20% to 21%? Pushing them to 100% would be a big ask, clearly. But still, some improvement has been made.

I like to link this blog post about ADHD for one particular quote:

The other thing to know is, and maybe the main thing I would like to get across if I don’t actually manage to come up with like, a “point” to this post (will she? won’t she? STAY TUNED), is: ADD is not about “not trying.” People with ADD are trying. They are probably trying harder than any non-ADD person ever has at the very tasks at which they fail, because guess what: non-ADD people don’t have to try that hard! You can bet your ******* *** I’m trying, on a regular basis, not to misplace my wallet again, because that **** is annoying and also, given my history of losing wallets/keys/cell phones/glasses/******* EVERYTHING, scary. Most people don’t understand this, because most people don’t understand how it could be so ******* hard not to lose a wallet. Just put it in the same place every time! Simple as that!

I don't really know, I'm trying to get my head around all this stuff.

I'm guessing that what you mean, Fortune, is that effort isn't likely to get someone from 20% to 100%.

Mostly, yes. I do not mean people with ADHD are totally incapable of everything. I mean that the idea that being intelligent or whatever can mitigate impairment is not really true.