Doping in cycling and the relationship to how ADHD meds are distributed

[tudorose]

Just want to hear your thoughts.

Here we have a situation where we are watching the downfall of professional cycling. A lot of them were given a choice between doping and having no career. Do you think it makes it right if they chose to dope?

Similarly do you think that stimulant meds should be available to everyone regardless of whether they need them because they feel they need them to be able to have their chosen career?

I'm curious as to how people see this especially as most of you are in the US or Europe where cycling is a lot bigger than it is here.

[Geno]

Interesting, so pro cycling and stimulants now are like the MLB and steroids were at some point :P (I think literally every MLB player was on 'roids at the time for the same reason, they were needed to be competitive)

And, I think any substance should be available to anyone for personal use as it's their body and their life and if they become an addict and mess it all up it's not my problem, but in the case of professional sports a ban on them would be more understandable.

[JOHNCG]

Originally Posted by tudorose

Just want to hear your thoughts.

Here we have a situation where we are watching the downfall of professional cycling. A lot of them were given a choice between doping and having no career. Do you think it makes it right if they chose to dope?

Similarly do you think that stimulant meds should be available to everyone regardless of whether they need them because they feel they need them to be able to have their chosen career?

I'm curious as to how people see this especially as most of you are in the US or Europe where cycling is a lot bigger than it is here.

I don't usually like discussing this kind of issue with people unless they have some kind of hard pharmaceutical or pharmacological knowledge, because psychoactive and performance-enhancing drugs have been largely demonised in the West over the past generation; and amongst lay persons, there's always a lot of middle- class hysteria and paranoia bound up with the topic. i.e. your statement: "We have a situation where we are watching the downfall of professional cycling".

In any case,

For what its worth, I think that psychostimulants like: Adderral, Dexadrine, Concerta, etc - the kinds used for medicating ADHD, should (ideally) be legalised for sale over the counter, though only for their responsible use by adults as cognitive enhancers, and NOT for the purpose of using in large (typically injectable) doses to get "high" ( from the euphoria associated with their actions on the brain's reward centre, the nucleus accumbrens)

Regards

John

[Geno]

Originally Posted by JOHNCG

I don't usually like discussing this kind of issue with people unless they have some kind of hard pharmaceutical or pharmacological knowledge, because psychoactive and performance-enhancing drugs have been largely demonised in the West over the past generation; and amongst lay persons, there's always a lot of middle- class hysteria and paranoia bound up with the topic. i.e. your statement: "We have a situation where we are watching the downfall of professional cycling".

In any case,

For what its worth, I think that psychostimulants like: Adderral, Dexadrine, Concerta, etc - the kinds used for medicating ADHD, should (ideally) be legalised for sale over the counter, though only for their responsible use by adults as cognitive enhancers, and NOT for the purpose of using in high typically injectable) doses to get "high" ( from the euphoria associated with their actions on the brain's reward centre, the nucleus accumbrens)

Regards

John

Well we're getting better every generation, really. Drug use is far less demonized than it was 50 years ago. I do my part by explaining what I did in the other thread(About how all "EVIL DRUGS" do is increase the amount of a chemical in your brain) to people when they demonize drug use, and while most people can't wrap their stupid heads around it, a few people have said "You know, I never thought of it that way and you're right!".

I will say though, ADHD meds do get you high orally(and not just intraveneously and intranasally) if you take enough. Even vyvanse which many say is "non-abusable", when taken in a high 150+mg dose, gives a very euphoric and legnthy high. The part about it being extended release doesn't mean it can't still get you high, you just need to take more and your result is the same high that lasts a long time.

[tudorose]

Originally Posted by JOHNCG

there's always a lot of middle- class hysteria and paranoia bound up with the topic. i.e. your statement: "We have a situation where we are watching the downfall of professional cycling".

Clearly you're not a cyclist. This is something that DH and I have been watching very closely. You probably haven't heard that the vice president of Cycling Australia has resigned because he used EPO in the past and that Matt White (a manager at Orica GreenEdge and and selector for the Australian team) has been sacked.

Maybe you also haven't heard that Rabobank (a team of 17 years) has pulled the pin on cycling altogether because of doping.

The Italian's are now investigating one of the doctors involved and the whole sport in general in relation to organised crime and tax evasion.

Perhaps you have been living under a rock and have missed the going's on with Juan Pelota and USADA.

There is a lot more which I won't bother going into as you are more than capable of doing your own research.

If you think that the statement that we're watching the downfall of professional cycling is 'middle class hysteria' perhaps you need to open your eyes and see the fallout of what's really going on.

Just because you don't know much about a topic (cycling, not pharmacy) doesn't make it middle class hysteria and it's rather annoying that you keep trotting out that line.

[Geno]

I'll admit I know nothing about cycling other than it's, well, riding a bicycle. But I don't think this qualifies as middle class hysteria as NEEDING to buy drugs to be good at a sport because everyone else does is a situation a ban on them would be okay.

The middle-class hysteria he's referring to are the "DRUGS ARE EVIL AND SHOULD NEVER BE USED EVER" people.

[fracturedstory]

It gives an unfair advantage. You should see me power walk people on the street. And I'm no athlete. Well, I am pretty fit.

Thanks for updating me on the progress on the story. I keep skipping the articles in SMH. It's a very long newspaper.

[Drewbacca]

I don't hold it against the guilty parties... but, I don't have any sympathy for the ones who have been stripped of their records. Sooner or later, it was all going to come into the light and each and every cyclist had a choice to either follow the herd, or speak out.

It goes way beyond cycling or even professional sports... the ends justify the means is a cultural virus which caused how many banks to crash in the last decade?

[Geno]

Originally Posted by Drewbacca

I don't hold it against the guilty parties... but, I don't have any sympathy for the ones who have been stripped of their records. Sooner or later, it was all going to come into the light and each and every cyclist had a choice to either follow the herd, or speak out.

Speaking out can sometimes have devestating consequences in many cases(Again, I don't know about this specific situation, I'm speaking in general), it's not that they want to follow the herd and do whats wrong, it's that they have to follow the herd or blow the whistle and be universally hated(sometimes losing more than just friends too). Similar to how "that kid" in school who "told on" people who did bad things had no friends and probably got beat a few times. On top of the fact kids grow up being told that being a "tattle tale" is bad. It's easy to say that you would have spoken out and did the right thing, but if you were in their situation you'd almost definetly think differently.

[stef]

I don't think stimulants should be over the counter; but there should be a simple process for people who NEED them, to get their prescriptions filled.

Re cycling: I've followed the tour de France for years, it's staggering news.
this doping is dangerous if not properly admnistrated
I can see a few individuals getting tempted with this stuff
but the widespread CHEATING AND LYING of so many atheletes, is really heartbreaking.
my son grew up watching this every summer....

@Tudorose: Rabobank?! OMG that is so sad...

[Sandy4957]

In my perfect universe, no one would "need" ADHD medications to function in society. Instead, society would allow for differences in a way that allows all of us to meet our greatest potentials, to do what we're good at, because we are, in fact, all good at something.

And now, if Retro. comes in here and starts arguing with me, I'm going to point out that he argues his points EXTREMELY well, that he's very articulate, and that he's an excellent writer. So if there was some way for someone like him to contribute to society as a writer and get paid to do it, that would be the ideal thing.

But that's just my pie-in-the-sky wish. I'll grant that meds help us. I just wish they weren't "needed."

And as for athletes, I am troubled by the idea that they "had" to use because everyone else was. It isn't fair to them. So yes, I am in favor of the testing and the punishing when people are caught. Track and Field changed after all the doping got caught there. You no longer see female runners who look like football players, with acne all over their faces, chests and backs from the steroids. I'm glad for that. I don't think that the steroids were good for their bodies over the long haul.

[Geno]

Originally Posted by Sandy4957

In my perfect universe, no one would "need" ADHD medications to function in society. Instead, society would allow for differences in a way that allows all of us to meet our greatest potentials, to do what we're good at, because we are, in fact, all good at something.

And now, if Retro. comes in here and starts arguing with me, I'm going to point out that he argues his points EXTREMELY well, that he's very articulate, and that he's an excellent writer. So if there was some way for someone like him to contribute to society as a writer and get paid to do it, that would be the ideal thing.

But that's just my pie-in-the-sky wish. I'll grant that meds help us. I just wish they weren't "needed."

And as for athletes, I am troubled by the idea that they "had" to use because everyone else was. It isn't fair to them. So yes, I am in favor of the testing and the punishing when people are caught. Track and Field changed after all the doping got caught there. You no longer see female runners who look like football players, with acne all over their faces, chests and backs from the steroids. I'm glad for that. I don't think that the steroids were good for their bodies over the long haul.

You're correct. Meds aren't needed in the sense that they're needed to live in any situation. They wouldn't at all be needed if society wasn't the way it is, if society worked a bit differently in some areas I'd consider my severe ADHD a minor inconvienence rather than a horrible life ruiner. But if you have ADHD, live in today's reality, and want to do what normal people do without incredible exhaustion and misery, meds are needed.

[Fuzzy12]

Originally Posted by Geno

You're correct. Meds aren't needed in the sense that they're needed to live in any situation. They wouldn't at all be needed if society wasn't the way it is, if society worked a bit differently in some areas I'd consider my severe ADHD a minor inconvienence rather than a horrible life ruiner. But if you have ADHD, live in today's reality, and want to do what normal people do without incredible exhaustion and misery, meds are needed.

I don't know. I wonder about that. A huge problem I have is a constant need for stimulation and I always thought that was a symptom of ADHD. In the absence of exciting novelty, I crash. Now this would happen in any kind of society, I guess.

Regarding cycling, I can understand the huge pressure on professional sportsmen (and women). And if they think that everyone dopes and therefore performs better they probably feel compelled to dope to. You know, like on ADDF some say, if everyone took stimulants the playing field wouldn't be level again and ADHDers would again perform worse in comparison.

Having said that, I wouldn't encourage doping and I think they should ban those that are caught. I think, it's incredibly sad that a profession whose primary purpose is to entertain is being taken to these extreme lengths, where the professionals feel forced to take substances that might harm their body. But that's a larger issue and one that is even more difficult to correct than just doping.

I don't know if stimulants should be available to everyone. Because of the side effects, I'd say definitely not over the counter. Maybe they should be like post coital oral contraceptives, which in the UK, you can get from a pharmacist but only after the pharmacist has discussed with you possible side effects and made sure that you aren't taking anything that might react badly with it.

However, I realise that I might be biased. If stims were freely available, it would enable me to take them. But then again, would it mean that the bar would be raised for everyone? So would everyone feel compelled to take them just to keep up with the performance of the rest of the world much as it seems to be in cycling? I'm not sureI want to live in a world where performance is more and more forced. What about those that physically can't take stimulants. Would they be the ADHDers of tomorrow? But then even now, there are performance enhancing substances out there. Coffee for one. Energy drinks. Omega 3, etc. though their benefit (and side effects) isn't scientifically proven.

I really don't know. But I think when in doubt, I'd err on the side of caution and preserve the status quo till more information is available to make a decision.

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by tudorose

I'm curious as to how people see this especially as most of you are in the US or Europe where cycling is a lot bigger than it is here.

Just wanted to add, cycling really isn't that big in the US. It is sort of a niche sport. You are unlikely to encounter anyone here who pays any attention to the Tour de France outside of passionate cyclists. Those of us who do ride, are usually taunted by an unfriendly automobile culture. I think it is more appreciated/supported in Europe... far more than the US, in any case.

[Geno]

Originally Posted by Drewbacca

Just wanted to add, cycling really isn't that big in the US. It is sort of a niche sport. You are unlikely to encounter anyone here who pays any attention to the Tour de France outside of passionate cyclists. Those of us who do ride, are usually taunted by an unfriendly automobile culture. I think it is more appreciated/supported in Europe... far more than the US, in any case.

Well, they're usually taunted in the US because in the US, tight brightly colored clothes on a male is basically the opposite of what you expect men to wear here, that could be why :P