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  #76  
Old 05-17-06, 01:32 PM
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Er, great. Not to hurry the issue but could you use this clarity to think of a relevant comeback?
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  #77  
Old 05-17-06, 09:58 PM
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The article is still relevant...first date or not, reading this someone might have a lightbulb go off, for themselves or someone they care about.

Ian, a wonderful father of several daughters, has good reason to want to educate and inform on this subject.

As for your disappointment in it, well, I'm glad you're not one of the men a woman has to worry about. I sincerely hope that you'll find someone you can have the chance to develop a strong, trusting, relationship with if you haven't already.
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  #78  
Old 05-17-06, 11:46 PM
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Yeah I don't though because someone taught all these girls to be intensely paranoid about every little thing a guy does and that any show of affection is that guy trying to control the relationship. Obviously some of that behaviour listed there is, well, I mean some of it's just gonna put a woman off in the first place, but other elements of that text is basically telling women to observe vehemently small flaws in a man's character, and is, in no uncertain terms, telling them to drop him like a hot coal because he's an abuser. I'm amazed people don't see the flip side of this - essentially texts like that do more harm than good, because all it does it teach girls to treat every man as a potential abuser. Believe me I know girls who have been abused, and I treat it as a very serious issue. I see what I read there as merely crass sensationalism, cod psychology and the only knowledge of real truth appeared to be stating the unbelievably obvious, and that I believe was merely to substantiate other, more absurd, claims.
In fact did it occur to anyone that certain elements of body language, and social quirks mentioned there could even be signs of ADD, rather than those of a vicious wifebeater? There's several other things mentioned there that could simply be signs of a person suffering from a completely different disorder, and may not be signs of an abuser at all. Remember girls, if your date shows any signs of having a learning disability, dump him. He's an abuser.
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  #79  
Old 05-18-06, 12:13 AM
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I really thought the original posting was helpful--I'm the type of person, taht though I may get a creepy feeling from someone, with most people, I tend to not notice much of the subtlties that were mentioned in the post. Especially fro someone with ADD, it can be helpful to have clear distinct phrases and actions that gilrs (or guys) can use to at least put up the radar.

SaneMan--I'm sorry about your predicament. But perhaps you should reassess how you come across to people when you meet them. Clearly, you don't sound like an abuser, but if many people comment on how you scare them, then maybe taking note on what exactly makes people uneasy will help you get past the first date stage...
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Old 05-18-06, 09:01 AM
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Yes, but you see the problem isn't with me, (and actually anyone calling me scary at any point isn't on a first date anyway - I'd been going out with that girl for a couple of months and I found out it was in jest), the problem is teaching people to look at normal behaviour and treat it as abnormal. I know this through my own and friend's experiences - it's a common saying amongst us guys these days that you should never, ever pay your girlfriend a lot of attention when you first get with her, because we've learned from our experiences that she'll dump you like a shot!
My other point is that the more subtle points made in that essay are NOT clear, they are very ambiguous points of detail that could mean many more things - this essay says that they are clear signs of an abuser. Example - by taking that text as an example, you may be on the alert because a guy tries to maintain eye contact a lot - now couldn't that mean several things? What if, like me, he has ADD and is trying to pay attention to you in case he is seen as rude? In fact what if he's simply trying not to let his eyes hover down to the contents of a low-cut top? See someone might be just being polite or trying to be nice, but the awkwardness of a first date could make these actions bear more in common with things outlined in that text. An adult with ADD might make insensitive comments or be a little too wont to speak their mind - that dosen't make them an abuser, does it? So no, the problem is not entirely with me, it's with other's perceptions of me. Often false perceptions encouraged by propaganda like that. I'd like to hear some examples of people who turned out to be hitched to a long-term abuser actually - because I know some personally, and the guys they were stuck with they described as perfectly nice for at least the first few months of the relationship before it turned sour. The fact is that anyone could potentially be an abuser, and the symptoms of it are long-term character flaws. That is the essential point the text fails to point out - you're not going to get an accurate perception of anyone by making snap judgements, which essentially, even in it's very title, it is encouraging people to do.
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  #81  
Old 05-27-06, 02:20 PM
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I don't find women in general to be paranoid. I'm sorry I just don't. Maybe it's where and who you're dating that's the problem? Just as women with a history of abuse seem to have a tendency of finding new abusive partners (this has very little to do with conscious thought) ALL people tend to gravitate to certain "Types" of people. I tend to gravitate towards strong, independent, and organized women. That's kind of a shame because I'm exactly the type to drive them absolutely bonkers. When I read about this tendency for the first time in the context of abused women I realized it applies to a lot more than that and it really made me think about my choices and criteria in the dating world.

You can't slap any hard fast label on "WOMEN" any more than you can on anyone else. All of us are individuals. My feeling is that when you find it necessary to start blaming a "Group" it might be a good time to look at yourself. I say this from experience, not as an insult. And like all opinions it should be taken with a large grain of salt, for the simple reason that I know almost nothing about you.

One thing I am very definitely right about is the labels. If you live your life by labels, particularly on groups, you are going to have a pretty unhappy life.
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  #82  
Old 08-24-06, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse7.html



Does he tell you constantly that you "make him feel" good? Don't be impressed. Next thing, he may tell you that you "make" him feel bad, or that you make him feel violent, or that you "provoke" him. "Look what you made me do!" is an abuser's ubiquitous catchphrase.
I hope you don’t mind an honest opinion about your post from someone that doesn’t have ADHD. If so please ignore what I am going to say.

>>

While I agree with most of it I don’t with some, especially the section above. My Girlfriend and I recently found out she has classic ADHD. I fell in love with her and her “quirkyness," for lack of a better word about 1 ½ years ago. But sometimes she acts like a child that needs some guidance. I also have to admit I am a leader type but very compassionate and thoughtful of others feelings. I've been a boss/supervisor most of my life and admit sometimes it’s hard to turn off. I’m really hoping that now we know what causes some of her actions we can both work on it together. First thing we need to learn is communication and seems a bit hard searching through the forums for this as it brings up countless posts. >>

>>

The part of your post I had a problem with is “telling you they make you feel good, “next thing they tell you, you make them feel bad.” “ is an abuser's ubiquitous catchphrase.”>>

I’m not an abuser at all. She has made me feel wonderful on countless occasions and I tell her. But she has also made me so mad that I have said things that I have never said to women before. When dealing with a person that has ADHD is it so wrong to believe they can provoke some pretty negative actions in people? She came from a relationship that shouted a lot I guess. Her opinion was rarely valued and I find her to be quite smart and value her opinions very much. I was never one to yell and always thought problems could be worked out like math and if not compromised in some way. This didn’t fit her way of handling things and would say the most off the wall things like she was purposely trying to make me upset. >>

She is also the most special girl I have ever been with and feel we were supposed to be together and she feels the same. Back on topic though, I have told her many times how good she makes me feel and also mentioned a few times that I am very hurt because she has upset me enough to prompt me to say some of the things I have. Maybe now with this new understanding these things will get better and they don’t really happen often. But I truly feel your list is a bit harsh. One problem I have with her is sometimes she exaggerates a situation, comment, feeling or action. Is this exaggeration a common trait of this condition? >>

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  #83  
Old 08-25-06, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crow
One problem I have with her is sometimes she exaggerates a situation, comment, feeling or action. Is this exaggeration a common trait of this condition?
Hi crow,

Welcome!

It's actually not so much exaggeration as feeling things more intensely or acting more intensely to them. Here's what the ADHD specialist Dr. Thomas Brown says about it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Brown
Emotion: managing frustration and modulating emotions. Although DSM-IV does not recognize any symptoms related to the management of emotion as an aspect of ADHD, many with this disorder describe chronic difficulties managing frustration, anger, worry, disappointment, desire, and other emotions. They speak as though these emotions, when experienced, take over their thinking as a computer virus invades a computer, making it impossible for them give attention to anything else. They find it very difficult to get the emotion into perspective, to put it to the back of their mind, and to get on with what they need to do.
http://www.drthomasebrown.com/brown_model/index.html

I know that it might be difficult for you as a non-adder to not see it as exaggeration since we usually go by how we experience things ourselves.

I don't know your girlfriend though of course or if there's something more to her way of 'exaggerating' as you say, but I know that's pretty much what my boyfriend feels I do when I act more intensely or give word to more intense feelings than he or other people might do in the same situation.
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  #84  
Old 08-25-06, 11:41 AM
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Clear, thank you for your input. It all makes things a little more clear... No pun intended.
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  #85  
Old 09-25-06, 01:32 PM
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What about a thread about "Warning!: Teltale signs that your woman is an abuser!"




Let's get real people... Men aren't the enemy, and we need to stop teaching the young woman that.


"Carry a can of mace" is clarification enough.




-Vision
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Old 09-26-06, 10:23 AM
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It’s not that simple. We all come complete with two mating strategies, one modern, one primitive. We’ve been here before, but I guess it’s time for a reminder…


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vision
What about a thread about "Warning!: Telltale signs that your woman is an abuser!"
I know you’re just being reactionary with that remark, but there is/was just such a thread.

It didn’t have the same impetus, though, for reasons that should be or will become obvious.


Quote:
Let's get real people... Men aren't the enemy, and we need to stop teaching the young woman that.
We are being real, and males are the problem, like it or not. It’s your evolutionary heritage; deny it and refuse to come to terms with your own self, and you simply replicate the problem.

We’ve covered this in some depth, in this very thread.

Go back and look at our first several posts carefully. Once you get past the built-in male reaction to anything that seems to threaten your evolutionary ‘right’ to mate using the primitive strategy, you’ll see we’re presenting the first and so far only analysis in human history to unravel this problem.

Note I didn’t say ‘solve’; we only unravel the problem into its two conflicting constituent parts. It really isn’t simple, but you can at least start to develop strategies for playing your own cards right.

Others will try to thwart that effort, females included, often making it seem perfectly sensible to pursue stuff you really don’t want to get involved in. But you can learn to see it coming and extricate yourself, if you really care about taking control of yourself and being at least fair to women.


Quote:
"Carry a can of mace" is clarification enough…
Nope, it’s not, and all that does is set women up to get taken advantage of all over again.

Females have their own version of the primitive strategy, and it’s not pretty. The working assumption is there literally isn’t any way to stop a male, so the primary behavioral strategy is survival.

That in turn is translated in to complex behavior patterns, history dependant, which can completely contradict any rational choices.

You have the responsibility of steering away from those behaviors, regardless of how sensible it seems to take advantage of what may look like an honest offer.

There’s a carrot in the end of the stick, if you can grasp the basic principles and make them work for you: the modern strategy has a completely different metric for pleasure, one which makes the primitive strategy seem like hitting yourself in the head with a rock by comparison.

You don’t get to see that difference directly, at least not at first, because the mechanisms that mask the contradictions between the two strategies are specifically designed to prevent such comparisons. (You didn’t think we males would still be doing harmful stuff to women if we could see how it works, did you? We’re not monsters; there’s a reason this stuff is still happening.)

If that isn’t enough, maybe this: the female version of the primitive strategy doesn’t actually have a metric for pleasure per se. There’s a behavioral role indicating pleasure built in, but it’s primarily a form of deception, mainly for the male, but often taken at face value by the female, too, sad to say.

To be blunt about it, male orgasms associated with the primitive strategy are purposely quick and weak (likely a contributor to the current stats on what Kay calls 'a reptile dysfunction'), and orgasms aren’t a part of the female version. The primary goal for females is survival.

That’s why the stats on anorgasmic women are still so out of whack, and you can do your part to fix it if you take the time to figure out how you work, learn to see the two strategies for what they are, and begin to make choices for how you want to behave.

It’s not simple, because this above all else is not a solitary exercise; it depends on others, and they will probably refuse to cooperate. But anyone can do it once they recognize the two strategies, even though it can be a bit disconcerting at first. Who can easily accept at first glance the idea that everybody is standing next to a 600 pound gorilla, that it’s always been there, but nobody ever noticed?

That is the way it is, though, and you can either have that thing looking over your shoulder during your most private moments, or choose to walk away to a quieter, saner place.

Good luck, and say hello to that gorilla for us…


--Tom and Kay
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Old 09-26-06, 12:50 PM
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'a reptile dysfunction'? Oh my... a belly laugh for Kay!
Thanks for your patient reply Tom.
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Old 09-26-06, 01:29 PM
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Stabile is just too mentally agile for me to combat.



You win kind sir, you win.

(waves white flag)


-Vision
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Old 09-26-06, 10:16 PM
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Thumbs up one word: wow.

Wow,

Crow thanks for posting, I caught this on the new posts and decided to read the whole thread. (yes, I read all of it in one sitting )

Very informative...

Still absorbing it all...
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Old 09-27-06, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vision
Stabile is just too mentally agile for me to combat.



You win kind sir, you win.

(waves white flag)


-Vision
(grins…) I wish it felt like we were agile, or that we won anything. It’s the most confusing subject we ever addressed, and we’re still working at it…
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