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  #106  
Old 08-26-08, 07:49 AM
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Ahhh! Adderall Failed, and then ADD broke free...... The Humanity!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile View Post
It’s not that simple.
We all come complete with two mating strategies, one modern, one primitive. We’ve been here before, but I guess it’s time for a reminder…

It didn’t have the same impetus, though, for reasons that should be or will become obvious.

We are being real, and males are the problem.
Oh Dear..... I fear 1+1 is being made to look like 4.......

Why two? Why not 15?

And "Modern" is relative.....

One "distilled by myself" premise, from Stabile:

{
Men are orgasm driven DNA "proliferators"(survival of the organism).

That may very well be the case,
but the only true part of that sentence is "orgasm driven"

Women are just as driven DNA "proliferators"(there's that word survival again), the motive is simply not orgasm. It is survival, which if you look it up evolutionarily means to pass on one's genes.

Remember humanism has been turned off in this paragraph for the very simple reason that we are not the only species to go romping around doing the same old things, no moral judgement here just a statement of the acts humanity relative to other species.
(If you only knew what we do to other species behind closed doors....)


This is all a straw man though, for without sexual compulsion(yes that's a reference to men), without strategic mate selection(reference to women), and yes in some rare other species this is reversed.

All of us interesting people wouldn't be sitting here arguing, laughing, sympathizing, praising, and exhibiting all the characteristics of modern (500 B.C to 2000 A.D.) humans, becuase our parent's would have failed to manufacture us.

You're fighting over the mechanism, "Orgasm is primitive, it's downright Reptilian!"
}

Funny Aside = Don't take this part seriously
Cut to a group of lizards in the LA chaparral making fun of all the two legged beasts around them running around not hunting, not mating and not producing as many offspring as possible, and one of them quips, my ancestors survived flaming balls of death raining from the skies, vast frozen oceans on land, and constant war. We made it all the way here 200 millions years of winning, and we have to put up with THIS...

Sur·viv·al
–noun
1. The act or fact of surviving, esp. under adverse or unusual circumstances.

Let chattel marriage be the unusual or adverse circumstance, (see precursors to first wave of feminism.)

In this context (thread) it has been framed to mean escape from violence, mental or physical.
But to survive does not mean to escape or avoid, to survive means to withstand and continue living regardless. (Happiness has not been factored in yet)

I hope you're beginning to see that the past was so unrelentingly violent so far different from this 21st century definition of normal, that we modern people, don't realize that our little command center in the neocortex sees this world in the context of "justice" and "right vs wrong", (and bless it's little neurons I agree, how couldn't I? I have a neocortex too...)

But to stop there is to make a grave error, for behind the facade of the neocortex lies the machinery of survival.

Machinery that lived in the hell of the past, and proved it's mettle through survival (see definition above).
Should we all revert to that machinery, of course not, but don't ignore it....

To call these brain configurations "disorders" just seems to presuppose that a 21st century, state of affairs existed through all the epochs of our world....

It just wasn't so, the dinosaurs didn't have DSL!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile View Post
like it or not. It’s your evolutionary heritage; deny it and refuse to come to terms with your own self, and you simply replicate the problem.
Wow..... I agree completely, too bad "the problem" means something entirely
different to me than to you, Stabile....

Well not really, I also do not condone the inflicting of harm onto others by a sufferer, but we're not talking about that now are we?

To you it's perpetuating of a set of behaviors, to me it's..... why it's just blindness....

Monoperspectivism (Yes I just made that up but you're smart enough to understand the three meanings there.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile View Post
Go back and look at our first several posts carefully. Once you get past the built-in male reaction to anything that seems to threaten your evolutionary ‘right’ to mate using the primitive strategy, you’ll see we’re presenting the first and so far only analysis in human history to unravel this problem.
This "problem" exists only so far as there is a oversupply of food and energy to beat back other interests (competing on this planet for control, ergo cultural/political survival.) enough to enable a worldview which has enough free time to turn it's attention to other pursuits, humanism.

Speaking of which let's turn that on now...

That's right people have inherent value in and of their own sakes.

To the preceding world, could a concept seem any more alien?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile View Post
The modern strategy has a completely different metric for pleasure, one which makes the primitive strategy seem like hitting yourself in the head with a rock by comparison.
Only if you can afford not to:

Starve
Be invaded by other countries
Be subject to random wars for which you are caught in the crossfire
aka (You didn't break it but you have to pay.)

Hold on these three lines have wonderful metaphoric links to mental health.
Remember them because the keyword is Sesame Street!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile View Post
If that isn’t enough, maybe this: the female version of the primitive strategy doesn’t actually have a metric for pleasure per se. There’s a behavioral role indicating pleasure built in, but it’s primarily a form of deception, mainly for the male, but often taken at face value by the female, too, sad to say.
He's talking about the paradigm of human civilizations up to about 1920 A.D. ergo male dominated society.

This is sadly predicated on Argumentum ad misericordiam known to english ears as the fallacy of Appeal to pity.

But why split hairs lets just predicate it on the victors (of any struggle) writing the account of said struggle in their own voice and image. In nature organisms do a similar thing when a more successful species overcrowds, simply hunts to extinction, or parasitically exploits another.

Of course that's interpretation, but you can't dismiss it out of hand without seeing the parallels.
Just replace (civilization) with (organism).

Let's get the polyperspective party started.
(Ok I'll stop with the funny names, maybe just one more...? )

It's late and I'm beginning to regret wasting the time, but when I see absolutists being praised, for butchering logic, with no regard for the deep past, that, by the way is still sitting in their own DNA, like yesterdays dirty garbage, well I just can't help it...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile View Post
To be blunt about it, male orgasms associated with the primitive strategy are purposely quick and weak (likely a contributor to the current stats on what Kay calls 'a reptile dysfunction'), and orgasms aren’t a part of the female version. The primary goal for females is survival.
After this post how could the above look blunt by any measure?

It's positively genteel!

Enough already, I agree with you, (sort of).....

This is a process argument, not a pattern arugment, we all agree that survival is
good, we disagree on the particular process.


Abuser damaging non abuser, survival through benevolence over malevolence.

By the way the "male" in malevolence, doesn't stem from man, it stems from Malice.

Malice is a term referring to a party's intention to do injury to another party.

Benevolence is the expression of kindness and altruism.


Not completely unrelated to this is:

Class Y (tip of a pendulum) is in power and seeks to increase it's ability to proliferate DNA (seeks toward higher kinetic energy, but less potential energy), through any means

Class Y succeeds...

The environment changes which undercut's Class Y's means of control (always through removal of it's advantage, this state usually correlates with extreme exploitation of Class X.

Class X having gained the means to proliferate unhindered, does so, it undermines Class Y.
Gains power and condemns Class Y's for it's means. Demanding that Class Y, (unacknowledged that it is biologically distinct from Class X), adopt Class X's behaviors, asserting them benevolent and superior.

What Class X doesn't see is that it will inexorably assume the former state of Class Y,
at which time the whole process will repeat. Intervals between environment change may vary but the process is always the same.

If the system is polyclass (more that two classes) power flows from the most advantaged to the 2nd most advantaged.

The real mind bender is not who is "superior" but that "superior" itself
is a ball on the field constantly changing hands, based on the situation at hand.



As the Eagles so succinctly put it.... "Everything is dust in the wind"



Personally, I don't believe that Men are "Gigantic penis controlled weapon wielding monsters"....

"Sound of tires screeching to a halt."

How did Feminism poke it's head into a mental health thread anyway?

Hello?!

A very simple explanation is this:

If a potential date behaves in a way that seems out of the norm, there could be many reasons for this. Some reasons could be transient "He/She had a bad day", these are usually, not always, but usually less deeply rooted behaviors, owing to their transient state, however some mental disorders visit all manner of hell on a sufferer and their companion in a very transient manner. (this enables the emotionally bruised man haters to point out the seeming nice guy who turns psychotic from his past conditioning/biological predispositions, as general indications to watch out for in all men (You Have to vacuum the carpet if you're gonna remove the gravel, right?).

But these "abuser filter" carpet vacs have allegorical razor blades that damage the whole carpet going under them, and this negative interaction damages the filterers themselves too.

(I soooo wanna say configuration because it's only a disorder if it impedes your survival, my god schizophrenic shamen/shawomen thousands of years ago were thought to be communing with the afterlife, but this is out of context and relevance valid but irrelevant....)

A much better approach is to label abusers as, "sufferers" of a modern disorder, who exhibit abusive characteristics.

A vastly more enlightened question then arises, "What could have caused this." Locking up all the criminals may grant temporary respite, but it does NOT eliminate the root causes which created the criminals to begin with.


Teaching women to be paranoid marginally protects them from harm, while inflicting a paranoid world view on them. (Which polarized people argue is better than being harmed.)

Thats like saying let's all undergo radiation therapy because it's better than having cancer.....

You want to eliminate harm stemming from abuse?

Eliminate the cause.

Law is not concerned with this holistic view of a social environment, law is a much simpler mechanism.
Law is an "if->then" statement with a bunch of cases we call precedents.

And Law cannot do that, because it was never designed to eliminate causes, law is reactionary

(And pepper spray may be a good interim measure, Hell I live in a nice neighborhood and I bought my girlfriend a taser(right after her car was broken into))

And no and I'm not a Republican
(I said Taser, not a revolver, it's a subtle difference:
Coffin vs Emergency room visit)......

If you want to solve the ills of the abused Remember Sesame Street! (assuming the original harm was caused by other people, parent's, past relationships,) I'm talking about the primary abused who turn into sufferers and then cause secondary harm.

What's truly sad is that during the "abuser" witch hunt, people with benign OCD or ADD are likely to be caught up and punished like dolphins in a tuna net.

Well to tackle that, you're going to have to unleash full blown scientific method on the entire social ecosystem.

Lacking the constitution for that we fall to formulaic "punishment strategies" and "witchhunt" primers.

Smells like the inquisition....

I would like to apologize in advance for my punctuation mistakes.

Wow!, that was stimulating, the dopamine took it's ball and went home.....
Good night (Good morning actually) all...
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  #107  
Old 08-27-08, 03:10 AM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

my rebuttal, as a classic abusive type. I mean that. I've done rotten things to the people I have been with. This is how I did it.

1.I admit that I am to blame for everything. it's easier and that way I don't have to change a damn thing; it's amazing how much crap someone will put up with if I simply say the right words. Don't ever believe an abuser who apologizes or admits they are wrong. They are lying unless they are ACTING differently.

2.
Quote:
Is he hypersensitive, picks up fights, feels constantly slighted, injured, and insulted? Does he rant incessantly? Does he treat animals and children impatiently or cruelly and does he express negative and aggressive emotions towards the weak, the poor, the needy, the sentimental, and the disabled? Does he confess to having a history of battering or violent offenses or behavior? Is his language vile and infused with expletives, threats, and hostility?
never on an early date. I might rant about something but I would only expose my aggressiveness after that person is close and has begun to care. My sainted grandfather, who was a kind, sweet, unoffensive person, cursed continually. He was far from abusive and yet he had some backwards views...but I, wanting to take advantage of someone, would not let that part of myself show until they were already under my spell. Beware of people who are far TOO obviously kind on the first date. Someone who expresses deep sadness over the state of people who are suffering...but undertips the waiter...watch out for the acts, not the words. On later dates you may start to see these kinds of things but most abusive folks are good at hiding their behavior. Especially those who are a bit older and have managed to get away with it...I was a buddhist for a while, in words at least. I cared so much, I was sorry for homeless people, I loved kitties and puppies and little babies and had a buddha statue in my home.

But I wanted to control my partner at any cost and when it came to THEIR feelings, I didn't give a damn. They never saw that coming.

3.
Quote:
Next thing: is he too eager? Does he push you to marry him having dated you only twice? Is he planning on having children on your first date? Does he immediately cast you in the role of the love of his life? Is he pressing you for exclusivity, instant intimacy, almost rapes you and acts jealous when you as much as cast a glance at another male? Does he inform you that, once you get hitched, you should abandon your studies or resign your job (forgo your personal autonomy)?
Once again these are things that start to happen once the abuser thinks they've got you snagged. A few weeks in, yeah, all this is valid. We want to grab you and make sure nobody else is around to see what we're going to do with you. We want to control you and "saving" you from being poor, lonely, or hopeless are great ways to do this.

Beware anyone who wants to "take care of" another adult. Are you very ill, helpless, weak??? ARE you? think about this. How did you manage BEFORE that person showed up? You're alive, aren't you? You don't need a caretaker.

4.As far as making all the decisions,respecting boundaries, etc...I actually have done just the opposite. I allow them to make EVERY decision. That way, when I sabotage something, I can blame THEM for their bad choices. Over time this is dead effective, as they stop trusting themselves to do what's right and leave most everything up to me. I've grown to respect boundaries as I've gotten older, because mine are so important to me, but when I was younger I'd use them as the "reason" things were going wrong.

i.e.
"I don't want you to call my work."
"ok"

next day, when he gets home, I've gone out for a very nice steak dinner with an attractive male friend, without him. And left a note saying "I would have invited you, but I DID WANT TO RESPECT YOUR WISHES NOT TO CALL YOU AT WORK." Guess whose fault this situation is? but it was HIS boundary that was taken away. Now he has no boundary preventing me from bothering him at work.

See how sneaky this is? Horrible. But it worked. I was a bad person for a long time.

5. Jealousy. I have to say that the jealousy thing isn't that that person loves you. Jealousy is one thing which even non-abusive people feel and many times an abuser will behave ini ways designed to make YOU the jealous one. This way their own jealousy isn't too remarkable...

6.
Quote:
Does he act in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes you often? Does he emphasize your minutest faults (devalues you) even as he exaggerates your talents, traits, and skills (idealizes you)? Is he wildly unrealistic in his expectations from you, from himself, from the budding relationship, and from life in general?
Yup.

7.
Quote:
Does he find sadistic sex exciting? Does he have fantasies of rape or pedophilia? Is he too forceful with you in and out of the sexual intercourse? Does he like hurting you physically or finds it amusing? Does he abuse you verbally – does he curse you, demeans you, calls you ugly or inappropriately diminutive names, or persistently criticizes you? Does he then switch to being saccharine and "loving", apologizes profusely and buys you gifts?
I don't know about the sexual sadism. I've known more sane people in the S&M world than anywhere. It's not if they like hurting you sexually. It's more about doing what THEY want to the exclusion of what YOU want. They will do as they like and brush off your requests for equal time...they will do things you don't enjoy, and continue to do them after you object...claiming it's important to them. They will have trouble fulfilling your desires...whether through some kind of invented dysfunction or through "forgetting"...it's the disregard for your pleasure that should be your red flag, not any actual sadism or pain.




As a final note, when you date, pay attention to the person. Most people will warn you of what they are at the very start. I know that I usually let people know, "I'm not suited for relationships, I am not a good catch in the long term." on the very first date (or the second at latest)

If you are desperate for a relationship, ANY relationship, then you are walking prey for people who are predators. You make yourself a victim. Learn to enjoy being alone, learn who you are and what you want and who you want to spend time with. And don't give up any part of yourself just for the sake of not being alone. You're a fully capable adult- you need a companion, not a caretaker or a parent.

When I date people who are happy about themselves or doing well on their own I am not abusive. I can't be, or they leave immediately. I like these people and find them interesting, so I refrain. I'm still not the greatest catch but it's much healthier.

I no longer date people who would allow me to hurt them. At all. If someone seems weak I don't even go out with them at all- it is dangerous for me and for them.


I thought hard before I posted this because it's very personal and not something I'd usually be open about. I hope it helps someone here stay safe. Or at least lets people who are where I was know that eventually things can change.
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  #108  
Old 08-27-08, 03:12 AM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

also, one last thing- beware anyone who has only psycho exes. There's a reason the exes are all crazy- the person probably drove them insane.

I've never met a non-abusive person who wasn't friendly with at least one ex. Look out for anyone with dating experience but no good references.




and to all the "this will help the women" and "it's a male thing"...I'm not a man. Control stuff can go either way. I've also been around but never been a sexual sadist or into S&M as a regular thing.
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  #109  
Old 08-28-08, 02:53 AM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

First of all, I'd like to say. I slipped.

This is troll behavior and NOT who I am.

I'm sorry I ever got caught up in the pseudo scientific brouhaha.

After reading Stabile's other posts I realize this person is first and foremost a philosopher.

I do not get into philosophical debates.

Not all men are abusers, not all women are victims and vice versa.

For those that are, please seek help.

There's a brighter world out there, a better place.



Like I said when the meds stop working the most unimportant things (writing here) get hyperfocused attention.

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  #110  
Old 08-28-08, 10:19 AM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

ohpe, it wasn't a useless debate. A lot of what you said had some validity. I wasn't bothered by it at least, I found it interesting to see what everyone thought in this thread.
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  #111  
Old 08-28-08, 10:22 AM
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Re: Ahhh! Adderall Failed, and then ADD broke free...... The Humanity!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHPE View Post

A very simple explanation is this:

If a potential date behaves in a way that seems out of the norm, there could be many reasons for this. Some reasons could be transient "He/She had a bad day", these are usually, not always, but usually less deeply rooted behaviors, owing to their transient state, however some mental disorders visit all manner of hell on a sufferer and their companion in a very transient manner. (this enables the emotionally bruised man haters to point out the seeming nice guy who turns psychotic from his past conditioning/biological predispositions, as general indications to watch out for in all men (You Have to vacuum the carpet if you're gonna remove the gravel, right?).

But these "abuser filter" carpet vacs have allegorical razor blades that damage the whole carpet going under them, and this negative interaction damages the filterers themselves too.

Teaching women to be paranoid marginally protects them from harm, while inflicting a paranoid world view on them. (Which polarized people argue is better than being harmed.)

Thats like saying let's all undergo radiation therapy because it's better than having cancer.....

You want to eliminate harm stemming from abuse?

Eliminate the cause.

this bit in itself is reason enough for the whole thing to stay up. you both made good points throughout.
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  #112  
Old 08-28-08, 02:44 PM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

there's no way i'll be able to surf through 8 pages of posts so i apologize if this has been mentioned already ..

a great book to read about this topic is called: The Gift of Fear, by Gavin De Becker. he's been on Oprah twice (as i know of) and it's a great book about personal safety: listening to your intuition. it talks about dating redflags as well. great book and i recommend it to all women!
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Old 08-28-08, 09:23 PM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

Quote:
Scary cousins the sociopaths, all have a markedly reduced or even absent sense of empathy.
Not all who lack or have blunted empathy are psychopaths/sociopaths .

I had an interesting discussion with someone who fits the criteria of psychopath and the scariest thing was how much I had in common with them – I have a depersonalization disorder – a separation from my emotions so to speak. I found the psychopath a lot more together emotionally than I. They at least were aware of their own feelings which is more that I can say for myself – even my own feelings seem distant and unreal .



Those who want some one to take care of them seem to be endanger of finding the flip side of care taker = control freak. Stand on you own to feet, define your personal boundaries and if some one violates your personal boundaries take no prisoners.
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  #114  
Old 09-02-08, 12:29 PM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

Philosphers, are we? Hmmm....

Well, who isn't?

Ah, well...

Being far better grounded than, say, Herr Kant was privileged to be (in part by the gift of modern neuroscience) we feel somewhat more capable of making grounded statements, in particular about the neural basis of human behavior, its evolution, and where we might expect the future to take us.

First and foremost we all attempt to make rational sense of our circumstances and surroundings. Doing so requires rational information, and unfortunately for the human species so far evolutionary forces have conspired to hide some of that information from our casual view.

The result is we sit and spin without much progress, with even the best of us occasionally reduced to silly squabbling. Find a way to gain insight into the missing bits (as we did) and much of the apparent complexity falls away, leaving an unambiguous view of the puzzle presented by male – female relationships for the first time in the history of the species.

The single most important missing bit is the fact we possess two contradictory behavioral strategies that serve to define almost all of human mating behavior. The fact of the contradiction is hidden from casual view by an ancient, low-level dissociative mechanism that (in a fit of whimsy) we call a ‘black hole’.

Work at it, and anyone of us can pierce the veil that black holes represent, which then presents another fine puzzle: why us? why now? and of course, how?

Solving that isn’t important to that task of using the information that we all possess two mating strategies to simplify and solidify our internal models of what we’re about, what it all means, and so on. That simple fact instantly resolves the ambiguity that has made our models seem so complex, and in doing so shatters their utility.

We’ve got to start all over, almost at the beginning, and rebuild a new, much simpler model. Unfortunately, not everyone out there is willing to give up the crippled models they’ve spent so much time trying to resolve.

In particular, males have Big Problems with this, and just that fact will keep this debate simmering for quite some time, in our estimation. Too bad, but note it doesn’t prevent any one of us from applying the information in a constructive way, working out the details of the new, unencumbered models that are required, and moving on.

And if the majority of those lucky folks happen to be female, it matters not: the end of the old, ambiguous models that seek to balance rapacious behavior with good intentions are still on their way out, in a generation or two at the most.

Meanwhile, the variety of behaviors that can be generated by a set of behavioral templates will still span a broad range, exactly as one would expect if the underlying neural principles are carefully studied.

That variety in no way transforms the underlying principles encapsulated in those templates, and for the human primitive strategy the most significant principle is still rape, a gift of our ancestors that carries no return address.

Anyone out there feel comfortable with that? We sure don’t, and there is not a thing that any of us can do about it except accept it and learn to avoid it.

Those that manage the trick, congratulations. Those that don’t, well, I guess we’ll have to learn to avoid them, then, won’t we?

And that was the original point, wasn’t it?

Tom and Kay
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  #115  
Old 09-02-08, 02:54 PM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

This is scary.
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  #116  
Old 09-09-08, 02:01 AM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

This is an ADD forum.

If you insist on behaving scientific, at least provide us with some documented evidence for your hypothesis.

Not a book, provide us with:

standard peer reviewed academic journal articles.

That's all, if the hypothesis is truly warranted, the evidence in the published materials will speak for itself.

Thank you
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  #117  
Old 09-11-08, 08:17 PM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHPE View Post
This is an ADD forum.

If you insist on behaving scientific, at least provide us with some documented evidence for your hypothesis.

Not a book, provide us with [standard peer reviewed academic journal articles].

That's all, if the hypothesis is truly warranted, the evidence in the published materials will speak for itself.

Thank you
Behaving scientific? (grins...)

Ideas (or hypotheses, if you insist on bending the definition a bit) are just ideas; ask a question if it occurs to you, or look around for what we've already presented here, in this and other sub-forums. Or look for other sources.

But in the end, they’re just going to present ideas, and that’s pretty much all we can look at here. Quoting peer reviewed research doesn’t amount to the same thing as submitting articles to peer reviewed journals, and in any case, presenting such materiel here wouldn’t make the debate clearer. Quite the opposite.

If there's something particular that strikes you about these ideas, there’s no reason to be shy about speaking your mind. The identification of the two human mating strategies isn’t our work, nor did we participate in the work that identified it in other higher primates.

We did puzzle out the neural mechanism that we call ‘black holes’, but again, it’s not really a new idea: dissociative mechanisms have been recognized for many years. And none of the neural stuff can be called our original work, either; it’s all based more or less directly on the thesis research of Dr. James Albus.

All of which is freely available to anyone who’s interested. We even have a PDF of a popular presentation, an article (from Scientific American) on the discovery of the primitive strategy in Orangutans; we can forward you a copy, if you’re really interested. It’s pitched well within the reading abilities of anyone posting here…

T&K
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  #118  
Old 09-28-08, 06:30 PM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

I might even have agreed with you if the corraborating evidence was clearly and appropriately present.

A few links is all that it would have taken.

I searched for: Dr. James Albus primitive strategy

At first, looking for Dr. James Ablus returned hits on an PH.D NIST Fellow
primarily related to robotics and automation control systems...

Nothing about anthropology

Next I tried: "Dr. James Albus" primitive strategy

That one returned this thread as hit 1 at the top of the results, followed by your responses to another thread as hit 2.

After that the only other hits were about Dr. James Albus the PH.D NIST Fellow.

The minute you said scientific evidence, I went looking.

Why is this evidence or even supporting material so hard to find?
If as you say it's generally accepted, it should show up fairly easily.

"Scratches head"....

But instead you chose to lecture me on the definition of syntax.

Hypothesis = Hypo (Greek term meaning "before, low, under, less than")

We find it in hypotension (abnormally LOW blood pressure) as the opposite of hypertension.

Thesis simply means idea.

Hypothesis means formative idea, working idea, or not fully established idea, as hypotheses used in this case are quite appropriate to scientific inquiry.

I've also scientific method below lest there should be any confusion.

Scientific method:

1.) Observe

2.) Question

3.) Hypothesis (explanation that attempts to answer question)

4.) Prediction (using hypothesis, predict future result)

5.) Experiment (test hypothesis in a controlled way, or using data from natural sources find data that highlights hypothesis.)

6.)Data from Experiment (what actually happened? Did the experiment deviate from the prediction? How so?)
(If experiment consisted of data collection, how was said data collected?)

Using output of step 6.) as subject of step 1.) and repeat.


Applied to this thread...

The question was not even asked in this thread, the thread was about abusers, it wasn't even explicitly male in discourse!

It could have been about females in which case this whole debate about primitive and modern strategies is irrelevant.

From my point of view this is how it looks like you responded in this thread:

1.) Observe
You obviously read the thread, thus observing it.

2.) Question
I don't recall anyone asking "why abusers abuse" the thread was about how to spot them.
You implicitly (You didn't type it out, it was implied.) asked the question "why do human males participate in exploitative behavior towards human females"

Surely your hypothesis (you wrote and fiercely defended it here, yet claim it's generally known and not "yours" but in 30 mins of google research I found only one article in a pop blog as I will reference here, the only other hits I found were in relation to "Dr. James Albus" and they pointed to this thread, and unrelated electronics hits)

Upon asking google to find: male primitive strategy

http://howtotellifaguyisajerk.blogsp...sexual_25.html


3.) Hypothesis
You basically hypothesized that male primates have a primitive mating strategy and a modern one.
or at least that's how you came accross, The primitive is all about getting as many of one's DNA ergo sperm into as many females as possible.

Point 1.) So far so good, I agree that this makes evolutionary sense (no morality in play here yet), we're not yet talking about good feelings and quality of life, we're simply talking hard numbers.

Point 2.) You go on to argue that in the primitive strategy, males "know they're doing something wrong" and "want to get away with it anyway"

I can understand the numbers argument it's provable across many species, but where's the proof for this second more nefarious claim?

Don't dismiss me and tell me to look because in good faith I spent some time looking.

The burden of proof is on you not me.


4.) Prediction (using hypothesis, predict future result)

Ok so has anybody done research about accurately predicting the behavior of human males in relation to this study, research that supports both points 1. and 2.?

Or at least supports your (perceived by me) basic hypothesis of:
"males know they're doing something wrong" and "want to get away with it anyway"

5.) Experiment
While you don't need to do this someone has to... There has to be corroborating evidence somewhere.

6.)Data from Experiment (what actually happened? Did the experiment deviate from the prediction? How so?)
(If experiment consisted of data collection, how was said data collected?)


Again, your references sir?

I'm not out to expressly disagree with you per-se, I just want any claimed "scientific" ideas to be backed up.

Three links that all I ask.

And a link to that PDF is helpful, scientific american is a popular publication and not peer-reviewed so even though I'll read it, and it might be helpful.

Thank you.
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  #119  
Old 10-22-08, 12:46 AM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

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Originally Posted by OHPE View Post
I might even have agreed with you if the corraborating (sic) evidence was clearly and appropriately present…
The initial question here is this: Did you read and understand the material presented here? We can certainly help you with that (by answering questions that address what we presented) until we’re all reasonably sure we’re on the same page. Once we get there, you’ll be in a position to gain some insight from (for example) the aforementioned Scientific American article, in which the authors describe serious research that they have published in a peer-reviewed context.

It’s likely you’d be able to find what you want with a little research starting with the author’s names. On a related note, James Albus did have a nice little career at NIST, but it had only a passing relationship with his original PhD work. You didn’t look very hard, or pay particular attention to what we said about Albus’ work and it’s relationship to our own work.

All of which is OK, really. This is a forum, not a peer reviewed journal, and pretty much anyone can jump in regardless of their level of expertise or previous understanding. We don’t mind explaining concepts that are unclear, or even upsetting, and in fact we’re awfully good at doing exactly that.

You can easily find quite a few members of note here who will be willing to attest to that, if you’re interested. It’s not nearly as stuffy or formal (or mysterious) as you’re making it seem, but the subject sure does hit a nerve, every time, in exactly the way that the evolutionary forces that forged that nerve intended (in the strictly metaphorical sense that such forces ever exhibit ‘intent’, of course).

Bottom line: you want science, you can find plenty of it out there. But you’ll need to understand better what questions to ask if you’re hoping to locate anything relevant. Lightweight tools like Google or the Wikipedia probably won’t be much help.

--T&K
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  #120  
Old 10-22-08, 02:39 AM
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Re: How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date

Quote:
Originally Posted by meadd823 View Post
Not all who lack or have blunted empathy are psychopaths/sociopaths .

I had an interesting discussion with someone who fits the criteria of psychopath and the scariest thing was how much I had in common with them – I have a depersonalization disorder – a separation from my emotions so to speak. I found the psychopath a lot more together emotionally than I. They at least were aware of their own feelings which is more that I can say for myself – even my own feelings seem distant and unreal .



Those who want some one to take care of them seem to be endanger of finding the flip side of care taker = control freak. Stand on you own to feet, define your personal boundaries and if some one violates your personal boundaries take no prisoners.
it's easy to be in touch with how you feel and be "together" when you really don't feel much about things.

and you're right- people who want to be taken care of in some way are easy targets. you can abuse them in every other way and just handle the one thing that's their weakness and they will usually let you get away with it. either them or people who want to 'save" somebody, both are easy to manipulate.

you have to figure out your boundaries and NOT let people cross them, no matter how you feel about them. your feelings of love and trust and caring will be used to get past the boundaries you set...I guess normal healthy relationships, those boundaries will be respected, but in a bad relationship or with an abuser they are just like a joke.

there's saying "If you can't afford to tip you can't afford the restaurant" and it's like that- if you can't hold up your boundaries you are not able to be in a relationship
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