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  #16  
Old 11-10-05, 07:12 AM
eninac_DTS eninac_DTS is offline
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Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
…but please remember this:

The reason that the emphasis is usually on women is because they have been given the dirty end of the stick when it comes to the primitive mating strategy.

The remarkable characteristic of the primitive strategy is this: while the male goal is obvious, the female goal is primarily to survive.

The behaviors associated with the female primitive instinct are exceedingly complex. They have evolved to allow the continued success of a strategy developed when females truly had no choice, being driven by their own cycle of estrus, in a rising context of apparent free will and self determination.

As a result, most of the primitive behaviors in modern humans can only be described as a form of rape. Regardless of how the woman involved thinks or feels about it, that is the only proper way to express it.

A woman's impression of what took place is programmed, a safety mechanism for the male involved. All he needs to do is successfully bring it into play.

There is a reason for the bias in favor of women, and fixing that should be one of our primary goals.

Most of us are nice guys, and wouldn't intentionally put the primitive strategy into play for anything.

But it's still there, and until we all learn to recognize it and can immediately understand why stuff like abuse prevention efforts are necessarily skewed in favor if women, the battle for equality isn't over.

Just a little somethin' to think about...
I'm shocked at just how wrong, and damaging these statements are. This one for example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
The remarkable characteristic of the primitive strategy is this: while the male goal is obvious, the female goal is primarily to survive.
If this were true, any male could stand up in court and claim he had no free will in raping a woman. That his "primitive mating strategy" dictated the rape. I know that is wrong because I must have had thousands of oportunities to rape women in my life, and have never done it.
And why, if women are primarily concerned with survival, do they spend so much money on making themselves presentable, socialising and playing the dating game? Why do they care for the welfare of their children? They need none of that to merely 'survive'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
As a result, most of the primitive behaviors in modern humans can only be described as a form of rape. Regardless of how the woman involved thinks or feels about it, that is the only proper way to express it.
Again, the average woman in western society will spend 2 or 3 times as much money and time on her appearance in order to attract people than men do. They willingly go to clubs with the intention of finding a partner, flirt with people, and often take a leading role in initiating sex.
If all sex is rape, all rape is sex and is pointless debating, let alone prosecuting.
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  #17  
Old 11-10-05, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eninac_DTS
I'm shocked at just how wrong, and damaging these statements are…
Shocking it is, but wrong it isn’t. The subject is extremely complex, and the post wasn’t intended to present more than a reference to it.

We’ve posted much more detailed discussions in appropriate threads, although they may no longer be in the database. If you’re interested, we could summarize some of it for you in a pm.

These statements are a direct result of our work on gender differences in human communication. In the last few years the same pair of mating strategies have been observed in higher primates, including direct evidence of overt physiological effects. Work at the University of Manchester also documents the existence of the two strategies in human subjects.


Quote:
If this were true, any male could stand up in court and claim he had no free will in raping a woman. That his "primitive mating strategy" dictated the rape...
It’s not clear to us that follows from what we said. Why do you assume we abandon the idea of free will?

One of the complicating factors is the existence of mechanisms in the human mind by which free will and self-determinism are reconciled with the requirements of predetermined instinctive behavior.


Quote:
…why, if women are primarily concerned with survival, do they spend so much money on making themselves presentable, socialising and playing the dating game? Why do they care for the welfare of their children? They need none of that to merely 'survive'…
You misunderstand what we mean by ‘survival’, I guess. We mean it in the classical sense. The personal experience doesn’t necessarily directly reflect the underlying goals of the deeper mechanisms at work driving the behavior.

The two strategies are largely mutually exclusive; they even have independent metrics for pleasure. But regardless of which one a person is pursuing, it ‘feels’ perfectly natural in many ways at that moment.

It’s the memories of the experience that bring about the appearance of conflict. Unfortunately, the appearance is accurate.


Quote:
…the average woman in western society will spend 2 or 3 times as much money and time on her appearance in order to attract people than men do. They willingly go to clubs with the intention of finding a partner, flirt with people, and often take a leading role in initiating sex…
Nah. You’re just a little torqued, dude. There are no such statistics.

It’s OK. We all do this from time to time.


Quote:
If all sex is rape, all rape is sex and is pointless debating, let alone prosecuting.
Well, we didn’t mean to imply THAT… (grins)

The fact is some sex is based in the primitive strategy, which is inherently rapacious. Whether it constitutes rape in a legal sense is a whole other question.

You can’t even say the behavior is unintentional in the conventional sense, because much of the mechanism involved in making the choice of strategy sits below the level of the mind at which that kind of conscious intent arises.

What we can say absolutely is that all sex based in the primitive strategy is inherently rapacious, and all the associated behavior also has that element. How any particular individual tempers that behavior has no effect on its underlying nature.

* * * * *

Our original statements were intended to point out that there is an inherent difference between the hard-wired male and female behavior patterns associated with the primitive strategy.

What’s fair in dealing with them is going to be different as well, and it’s incorrect to look for parity. For this stuff there is no equality by definition, and women still get the short end of the stick.

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  #18  
Old 11-10-05, 04:07 PM
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I assume you reject the idea of free-will by your use of the adjective 'apparent' before referring to free-will, as if free-will is nothing more than a concept. Combined with your talk on predetermined instinctive behaviour, it could be argued that, if correct, people are mindless zombies unable to restrain themselves and subsequently couldn't be held liable for their actions; therefore rape would be ok, and the Nazis were only following orders.

I understood what you meant by 'survival' as meaning a broader 'survival of the species'. My point is that women require intercourse with men in order to 'survive', and to obtain their objective of motherhood (which I reject is a universal, predetermined behaviour, btw) they often openly invite sexual intercourse with men, and are certainly not always raped. Humans are social beings and, where sexuality dictates, I'm sure women would prefer a sexual relationship with a man when confronted with the possibility of conceiving through the services of a sperm bank.

I didn't refer to any statistics, you called them that. It's funny that you didn't refute my comments though.

Lastly, I'm not an ape. What species of higher primate did you study, and can the females of that species experience orgasm? Very few can, and it would make a huge difference between rape in primates and sex in humans. If all you're referring to is a college thesis you're doing, try finding a less insulting term to attach to your theory. One that doesn't suggest that I, and all heterosexual men, regularly abuse sexual partners.

* * * * *

If there is no equality, and womens' 'short end of the stick' in strategical behaviour patterns is 'hard wired', then why 'battle for equality'? Your beliefs and your equality-war-cry are at conflict.
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  #19  
Old 11-10-05, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eninac_DTS
I assume you reject the idea of free-will by your use of the adjective 'apparent' before referring to free-will, as if free-will is nothing more than a concept. Combined with your talk on predetermined instinctive behaviour, it could be argued that, if correct, people are mindless zombies unable to restrain themselves and subsequently couldn't be held liable for their actions; therefore rape would be ok, and the Nazis were only following orders.
Yikes!

We said ‘apparent’ because free will and self-determinism don’t operate in the way we perceive them. ‘Free will’ is indeed a concept, but it deserves better than to have ‘nothing more than a’ put in front of it. Conceptual entities of the same class include your sense of conscious awareness and the reality in which you experience it.

We know free will exists. We also know how it works. We never implied people are mindless zombies; that is entirely your own contribution.


Quote:
I understood what you meant by 'survival' as meaning a broader 'survival of the species'…
Nope, that’s not exactly it either. We meant individual survival as defined on a low level: survival of the organism. It’s related to the species wide goal, but directly implicated in behavior. The species goal is an illusory reflection of this, in a sense, but it arises as a consequence of more than just the individual instinct to survive.


Quote:
…My point is that women require intercourse with men in order to 'survive', and to obtain their objective of motherhood (which I reject is a universal, predetermined behaviour, btw) they often openly invite sexual intercourse with men, and are certainly not always raped…
I’m not sure what you reject as ‘universal predetermined behavior’ here. Perhaps you could elaborate?

The abstract goals you’re describing are somewhat of an illusion, similar to the perception that the species itself displays goal-oriented behavior.

On the level that our mating strategies define (not determine) behavior, it’s incorrect to characterize any drive as ‘requiring intercourse’. We don’t seek partners and engage in intercourse with that as the specific, direct goal except in extremely unusual circumstances outside the scope of the behaviors we’re discussing.

On the levels that the two human mating strategies are defined, the immediate goal of sexual activity is usually assumed to be pleasure. The actual drivers are far more complicated, but except for the primitive female strategy you can generally think of them as representing an impulse to seek gratification in one form or another.

The goal for both males and females in the modern strategy is primarily pleasure, with successful activity defined by a complex combination of contributors dominated by nurturing activity reinforced by prolonged physical pleasure.

Note that having a goal and reaching it is not the same thing, but activity on this level isn’t like running for political office (for example). The basic drive doesn’t know how to get discouraged and quit.

The primary goal in the male primitive strategy is a temporary increase of self-esteem and perceived status, reinforced by a relatively brief form of physical pleasure that carries its own, different metric of satisfaction.

In a way it‘s fundamentally incorrect to describe the primary goals of the female version of the primitive strategy, which derives from behavior in which free will plays no part, having not yet been invented.

But there is a well-defined set of goals related to navigating the experience and integrating it with the rest of the experiential gestalt.

Although the impulse to seek physical pleasure is not a part of these goals, creating the appearance that physical pleasure is desired is a minor part of the greater picture. Actual physical pleasure is not usually a factor.


Quote:
Humans are social beings and, where sexuality dictates, I'm sure women would prefer a sexual relationship with a man when confronted with the possibility of conceiving through the services of a sperm bank.
It’s not really correct to think in terms of ‘sexuality dictating’ in this way. Except for extremely unusual circumstances, we seek mates or seek to form relationships for entirely different direct goals, much more defined by various feelings of gratification than by relatively esoteric goals like conceiving a child.

It might be helpful to understand how the two strategies define the behavior of seeking a mate. In the modern strategy, both the male and the female are seeking to form a long-term pair bond with a partner that enjoys the highest status possible. In this context, status is not defined in the common way, but rather as a complex evaluation of factors related directly or by co-selection to reproductive success.

For practical reasons, the appropriate partner is usually one that has approximately the same status. In the most stable long-term pairs both partners feel they have gotten a little better than they deserve. We humans have a well-documented slight negative bias in assessing our own status that helps ensure stability.

The male primitive strategy is also status driven, but in humans it is currently based on the temporary increase in perceived status that arises when associating with persons of higher status. Such an increase is accompanied by a temporary increase in self-esteem, both of which are appropriate to the short-term nature of the interaction.

The modern strategy is superior in many ways for the purpose of propagating the species through succeeding generations, so one might wonder why the primitive strategies have stayed around, particularly given the necessity of a complex mechanism to keep the two from conflicting with each other.

One reason is the blind nature of selection; once something selects, it tends to stay around unless it’s displaced by direct competition. But the most significant reason is that it can serve to correct a weakness in the way that the modern strategy works.

A purely status driven mechanism will ultimately concentrate the gene pool near the top of the status hierarchy. The intermittent acts of the primitive strategy help maximize diversity in the gene pool, and (presumably) ensure it’s continuing robustness.

It’s logically reasonable to assume that there could be a female version of the male high-status seeking short-term behaviors, but we’ve seen no evidence of it. It’s not clear that it’s necessary, given the goal of ensuring genetic diversity.

Males are uniquely effective, bearing both X and Y chromosomes, and the behavior described has been in place for at least several hundred thousand years, and millions of years in other species. A new female strategy similar to the male primitive strategy wouldn’t provide any differential that could select.


Quote:
I didn't refer to any statistics, you called them that. It's funny that you didn't refute my comments though.

Quote:
…the average woman in western society will spend 2 or 3 times as much money and time on her appearance in order to attract people than men do. They willingly go to clubs with the intention of finding a partner, flirt with people, and often take a leading role in initiating sex…
These are statistically derived data.

To characterize something as ‘average’ or “2 or 3 times” more than a comparable thing, you have to sample the relevant populations and gather data quantifying the attribute you want to compare, and then crunch the numbers to determine what the average is, or how much larger one sample is than another.

I don’t believe you have such data, but in any case, your statement implies it exists. And beyond all else, it is statistics.


Quote:
Lastly, I'm not an ape. What species of higher primate did you study, and can the females of that species experience orgasm? Very few can, and it would make a huge difference between rape in primates and sex in humans.
Actually, the primate we study is Homo Sapiens, for the last thirty-five years or so. The answer to your question is sometimes. (grin…)

I don’t think you understand the definition of rape.

In Orangutans, for example, rape is distinguished by the use of deception, isolation of the victim and the use of force to commit an act that violates the ordinary rules governing social interaction, including reproductive behavior. Adult males that are fully developed sexually systematically repress the overt signs of physical maturity to pass for adolescents, thus gaining access to the females.

Rape in other species is similar, but differences of course exist. The behavior seldom has anything to with sexual gratification, though. It’s usually something closer to getting away with doing something you shouldn’t, for reasons that aren’t always clear.

In any case, the result is uniquely disturbing to the female, and in all species for which examples exist there seems to be correspondingly unique coping mechanisms.


Quote:
If all you're referring to is a college thesis you're doing, try finding a less insulting term to attach to your theory. One that doesn't suggest that I, and all heterosexual men, regularly abuse sexual partners.
Nope, it’s not a college thesis. We’ve spent thirty-five years or so studying gender differences in human communication. Part of the puzzle was unraveling how the two different mating strategies affected communication, and in particular, how the male and female versions of the primitive strategy were different.

I assume the term you find insulting is ‘primitive strategy’. I’m not sure why it’s a problem for you personally, but we apologize for any misunderstanding it may have caused.

It’s a purely scientific term that has no personal intent, and we don’t see any reason not to go on using it. It’s both accurate and appropriate.


Quote:
If there is no equality, and womens' 'short end of the stick' in strategical behaviour patterns is 'hard wired', then why 'battle for equality'? Your beliefs and your equality-war-cry are at conflict.
I don’t see how you could conclude that, really. We didn’t say there was no equality; we said the male and female versions of the primitive strategy were inherently different.

To look at how they’re different in more detail would take some background, but the perception of inequality we presume you’re referring to is in fact related to the primitive strategy on a deep level.

It’s not simple, though, or we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Everything would have been over by the time the Eighties rolled around.

I should point out that you certainly don’t have to choose to use it; all males have that choice. And the modern strategy is far more satisfying in the long run, anyway.

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  #20  
Old 11-11-05, 11:51 AM
eninac_DTS eninac_DTS is offline
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I used 'where sexuality dictates' simply to excuse lesbians from my comment that 'women would prefer a sexual relationship with a man'. Obviously lesbians wouldn't. I don't care about any nature vs. nurture debate on what dictates sexuality, it isn't important.

I'm also informed that I was wrong in saying I'm not an ape, but you knew what I meant.

The universal predetermined behaviour I reject is parenthood as a goal — primitive or otherwise.

I'm not offended by the term 'primitive strategy'; I'm offended by your use of it to justify ludicrous comments such as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
As a result, most of the primitive behaviors in modern humans can only be described as a form of rape. Regardless of how the woman involved thinks or feels about it, that is the only proper way to express it.

A woman's impression of what took place is programmed, a safety mechanism for the male involved. All he needs to do is successfully bring it into play.
It is the 'rape' that I'm offended by. Rape is not 'the only proper way to express it.' Human behaviour can not 'only be described as a form of rape.' When my girlfriend wakes me up at 3 am asking for sex, I don't need a 'safety mechanism', I don't need to 'bring [anything] into play', and nor have I brought anything into play to get into that circumstance (theories on demonic males are interesting, but worthless as they ignore social factors entirely. Not all women are attracted to a**holes!)
Indeed it is I that think you do not understand the definition of rape (don't tell me your definition, it's relevant only to you). It is a forced act of sexual intercourse or the spoiling/destruction of a geographical location (it's also a cabbage, but that's not really worth noting). Sex without the presence of violence can never be rape. Your opinions on what constitutes rape are worthless to all but you, as the word is highly defined and its meaning is about as concrete as meaning can be. So I'll suggest again, that you find a word for your theory that doesn't suggest that all men are violent abusers. You may not mean to suggest it, but suggest it you do.
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  #21  
Old 11-12-05, 11:46 AM
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Yup, that term does offend most people. It’s a shame we have to have it around, don’t you think?

This is complex stuff, and nobody can understand it by looking at what we instinctively feel and expressing that. Using your own relationship as an example is an invitation for disaster, too; we don’t recommend it. Keep your thinking on a more theoretical basis.

Regardless of how unpleasant it might seem to you, our original comments are accurate. All aspects of the primitive strategy in both males and females are based in behavior that is rape, by definition.

Our working definition of rape in Homo sapiens is “forced self-violation.” This implies a forced, unwanted change of the self, carried out by the victim: her self-definition is changed arbitrarily and against her wishes, and she is forced to do the dirty work herself.

When that’s accomplished, what’s left is a self-definition that is compliant to the wishes of the male, reflecting the male’s idea of the kind of person the female should be. This typically occurs well before any actual physical overtures. It’s accomplished by triggering instinctive behaviors associated with the female primitive strategy.

In effect, women have buttons built in that allow men to control them in specific ways, as long as they’re willing to force the situation in a particular way that isn’t overtly sexual.

THIS DOESN’T WORK AUTOMATICALLY, OR NECESSARILY AT ALL. Despite all the desperate books out there, no woman has automatic buttons to push that guarantee any guy can get lucky.

So please no flames to the effect we’re implying women have no control in this; we’re not. That’s no truer than it is to say all men are rapists. We have it built in, but how it’s evidenced depends on the complicated mechanisms by which we make choices about our self-definition.

What isn’t readily available is information about that process, or what the choices represent. Most people don’t like the word ‘rape’, let alone the subject. Few of us make informed decisions, and some of us get it wrong to a greater or lesser degree.

We’re not saying that anyone has to act out those behaviors, only that their existence in all of us, in one form or another, inexorably colors our perception of associated events.

It is implicitly unfair to the female, and that is explicitly inconsequential to the male. He doesn’t care because it literally doesn’t matter what she wants, and that perception is reflected in every aspect of our culture even if we might not personally subscribe to it.

You might not feel that way, but it’s in there, nonetheless. We have to actively prevent it from creeping into our attitudes when we’re not looking, and by we, I mean everybody, males and females alike.

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  #22  
Old 11-12-05, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eninac_DTS
(I) think you do not understand the definition of rape (don't tell me your definition, it's relevant only to you). It is a forced act of sexual intercourse or the spoiling/destruction of a geographical location (it's also a cabbage, but that's not really worth noting). Sex without the presence of violence can never be rape.
That’s one dictionary definition, all right, although not a very detailed one. There are other definitions, of different types; your dictionary has no standing in court, for example, and the medical definition is entirely lacking of any mention of vegetables. (grin…)

It’s the definitions used by sociologists and anthropologists that are relevant to the discussion, and ours is only one example of many essentially similar ones. It’s entirely valid, not a matter of opinion at all in the sense you mean it.

It is fair game for formal logical debate, though, and feel free to offer your criticism of either the form or the substance. We’re reasonably comfortable with defending this particular thesis in a formal context; it isn’t really very controversial.

We notice that you’ve equated ‘force’ with ‘violence’, and that is an error. The term ‘force’ is used explicitly because it includes many kinds of behavior, including but not restricted to physical violence.

We don’t study rape that is perpetrated by physical force; it’s by far the least common example, and not of much interest in terms of high-level behavior.

Incidentally, haggling over what constitutes ‘force’ is one of the most common defense tactics in sexual assault cases. This is because the actual underlying mechanisms are so poorly understood. We expect that this will slowly disappear as more research starts to work its way into the mainstream consciousness.


Quote:
Your opinions on what constitutes rape are worthless to all but you, as the word is highly defined and its meaning is about as concrete as meaning can be…
If that were so, we wouldn’t have anything to talk about, and court cases would be over before they got started.

These concepts certainly aren’t worthless to rape victims. The last we looked the statistics are that one in three women will have reported being sexually assaulted by the age of fifty. The expected ratio of reported to unreported cases of this sort would place the actual number far higher than that.

Your idea of ‘all’ doesn’t exactly fit the picture of what’s actually happening to women out there.


Quote:
So I'll suggest again, that you find a word for your theory that doesn't suggest that all men are violent abusers. You may not mean to suggest it, but suggest it you do.
I can’t imagine how you get that, other than from some personal perception of something not actually expressed in the words we’ve written.

We don’t suggest all men are violent, or abusers. We state that all men have instinctive behaviors built in that are inherently rapacious. That’s pretty well established scientifically; all we bring to the table is a detailed understanding of the complex mechanisms by which instinctive behavior is instantiated.

We didn’t mean to imply you had to follow that instinct, though, and went out of our way to state that explicitly.

It’s your choice. It’s reasonable to assume from your shocked reaction that you try to make it wisely. Not everybody does, and getting information out there about why and how it happens will change that.
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Old 11-12-05, 08:02 PM
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I think that it's a mistake to lay down definitions, and expect these to be absolutes.

For the record, I cannot think about the subject of this thread (the second time that this has happened to me recently, whilst never before), I find it too distressing, and so I'm shifting into an analogy, which will illustrate my point, whilst staying firmly away from the actual place that we are, here.

So, there's the physical and the mental pain,
the physical may recover,
but the mental - what is that?
a dream shattered - a reality without the dream of convergent realities,
everything is broken now,
A little piece of you,
A little piece of me,
will die,
and I feel the loss of the forest,
the pain,
but the loss of a single tree,
is the same pain,
yes lesser,
but is the same pain.

No definitions.

As I said, maybe I'm broken, disordered, in need of medication - but I can't think about the actual (the second time that this has happened to me recently, whilst never before) subject of this thread.
I apologise if any here believe that my analogy is too light, for this subject.
I cannot make the contribution that I need to make here, without me begging your permission for this one favour.

I need to ask, to help me purge the feelings that I am having now, and to return me into my subtly constrained reality - Is your name derived from the Eniac - backwards, a statement, as your posts seem to head, that Turing was wrong, and that all of those bits and pieces that make us human, cannot be captured?

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  #24  
Old 11-12-05, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SB_UK
I apologise if any here believe that my analogy is too light, for this subject…
There isn’t any weight heavy enough;
how heavy is the heart of a black hole?

If it can be, light
is right…


We don’t know of any way
to say this, but this
if you look into the pain, there’s nothing
to see,
there’s nothing like it,
it is nothing, and that really is
the pain;

not seeing it is seeing it, and by definition, being
in the right place…

TK
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Old 11-13-05, 12:21 AM
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Thank you for sharing SB. It was not too light. No definitions.
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  #26  
Old 11-13-05, 08:50 PM
eninac_DTS eninac_DTS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
That’s one dictionary definition, all right, although not a very detailed one. There are other definitions, of different types; your dictionary has no standing in court, for example, and the medical definition is entirely lacking of any mention of vegetables. (grin…)
I take it you are American? Because the two examples I gave (three including the cabbage) are the only two defined by the Oxford English Dictionary, which is the official record of the english language, recognised by any court in any country which has English as its official language — which the USA does not. Working definitions, other definitions of different types and personal definitions are meaningless. If you're using the term in a submission to a university press which has its own dictionary (which I doubt would use 'rape' in such a general, blanket manner), then fine. But when communicating with people who speak English, and not 'NYU department of culture', replace the word with something more descriptive and less insulting.
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Old 11-13-05, 09:31 PM
eninac_DTS eninac_DTS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SB_UK
I need to ask, to help me purge the feelings that I am having now, and to return me into my subtly constrained reality - Is your name derived from the Eniac - backwards, a statement, as your posts seem to head, that Turing was wrong, and that all of those bits and pieces that make us human, cannot be captured?
No, my name isn't a play on the eniac. As for those bits and pieces that make us human, they're there alright, but only in a material way and are subject to the effects of evolution like the rest of us. You can believe in 'hard wired' behaviour, but acknowledge that the wiring changes over time in reaction to the material and social worlds which we inhabit — anything more than that is spirituality. Also, you can't ignore the changes in human behaviour alongside changes in social structure — the feminists burning their bras back in the day sparked a sexual revolution that means women aren't exactly likely to make excuses for the way others are treating them today. The last decade has seen the emergence of 'the ladette' who are open (sometimes brazen) about their sexuality.

To go back to the eniac, if Turing was successful and was able to create a computer that could fool the majority of people who communicated with it that it was human, the social and behavioural changes that we have gone through, in the time that would have passed, would make that computer incredibly easy to spot today.

Last edited by eninac_DTS; 11-13-05 at 09:32 PM.. Reason: fix broken quote
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  #28  
Old 11-14-05, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eninac_DTS
I take it you are American? Because the two examples I gave (three including the cabbage) are the only two defined by the Oxford English Dictionary, which is the official record of the english language, recognised by any court in any country which has English as its official language — which the USA does not. Working definitions, other definitions of different types and personal definitions are meaningless. If you're using the term in a submission to a university press which has its own dictionary (which I doubt would use 'rape' in such a general, blanket manner), then fine. But when communicating with people who speak English, and not 'NYU department of culture', replace the word with something more descriptive and less insulting.
Sorry, but this isn’t the case at all. No court we know of recognizes any dictionary, even yours Down Under; legal definitions are entirely different, as are the definitions used in the formal disciplines that address these issues.

There are many different types of dictionaries, and the Oxford (one of many language dictionaries, as I said) is only one type. That particular type isn’t directly relevant to the discussion.

I’d love to own a copy of the Oxford, but can’t afford it. I don’t believe it only has the limited definition you’re indicating, though. In my experience, it’s seldom that terse, and rape is (obviously) a subject that attracts broad interest.

We’re using the term in the sense meant in the mainstream of research into the subject. Our work is primarily focused on gender differences in communication, which the subject clearly influences directly.

Try finding a copy of Ann Cahill’s Rethinking Rape for a slightly dated review of current thinking about this. I believe your personal ideas about these issues are just a little out of touch with the scientific mainstream, and a little background would help you understand what we’ve been going on about here.

Definitions are by definition not meaningless. (grins…)

Which one applies is really only a question of context. This one isn’t based in language, but rather sociology and cultural anthropology, with little medicine and cognitive neuroscience added in for good measure.
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Old 11-14-05, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by eninac_DTS
…the feminists burning their bras back in the day sparked a sexual revolution that means women aren't exactly likely to make excuses for the way others are treating them today…
Actually, the feminist movement fragmented and lost focus because of difficulty understanding exactly the details we’ve been describing. Few who were involved feel that the movement achieved its objectives along these lines, and it only enjoyed limited success in other areas.

Pay disparity is still almost as much a problem as it was in the early Seventies, for example.


Quote:
…the last decade has seen the emergence of 'the ladette' who are open (sometimes brazen) about their sexuality.
Currently there are a lot of roles like this being pandered out there through various means, and it isn’t unusual that some females adopt them. Almost all are tailored to some of the underlying triggers associated with the female version of the primitive strategy. As such, they don’t hold as much significance for the female as they do for the males that (usually) define them.

In terms of the raw sociology of the situation, there are two classes of male predatory behavior. One group known as ‘primary predators’ have a complex profile, and are primarily risk-takers with obsessive tendencies. They usually exhibit a relatively long-term focus on perfecting and practicing their ’technique’.

A larger group of males known as ‘secondary predators’ learn to look for females that have had recent contact with a primary predator and are in the process of assimilating the experience. The advantage to the secondary predator is that there isn’t nearly the same level of risk involved, and the self-model of the female is in an extremely plastic state. These roles offer an obvious (although incorrect) definition for her self-model that conveniently explains her recent experiences.

The disadvantage is that the direct benefits (a temporary boost of status and self-esteem) aren’t as apparent, and if he tries to convert the interaction into a long-term relationship (fairly common), the effort often fails. There are also common long term problems that are directly related to getting the two different metrics for sexual satisfaction mixed up, but that often isn’t addressed until many years later, if at all.

These roles play prominently in the plot of much of the porn currently being produced, but they don’t support long-term pair bonding and the modern strategy very well.


Quote:
…if Turing was successful and was able to create a computer that could fool the majority of people who communicated with it that it was human, the social and behavioural changes that we have gone through, in the time that would have passed, would make that computer incredibly easy to spot today.
…as a human that matured and lived at that time, but not necessarily as a machine. A machine that passed the test in the Fifties should be able to pass it today, too. All that you would expect to differ is the impressions of the interviewers, who would all recognize and expect an old timer to sound like an old timer.

The Turing test isn’t really that specific, though, or maybe not that general; it depends on how you look at it. The best way is probably the way Turing saw it, as a logical proposition in the theoretical study of conscious awareness. The guy was primarily a logician…

…who chained his coffee cup to the radiator by his office chair. Any guesses as to why?

(Most of the speculation is that he was paranoid, which feeds nicely into the speculation about his death. But that’s not it at all; any ADDer should be able to figure it out.)
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  #30  
Old 11-14-05, 11:22 PM
eninac_DTS eninac_DTS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
Sorry, but this isn’t the case at all. No court we know of recognizes any dictionary, even yours Down Under; legal definitions are entirely different, as are the definitions used in the formal disciplines that address these issues.
While it isn't written in law that the OED is the officail record of the language, a country which has English as its official language will have, written in law, a decree that all matters of the state are to be recorded in English. If what you are saying is true, that no one record of the English language is official and recognised as such, then those matters which are recorded — even laws themselves — are open to personal interpretation. The very courts which you claim don't recognise any dictionary would have nothing to refer to in order to settle disputes or even interpret the law. They need one source to refer to, they don't go to scientists, sociologists or anyone else you mentioned. They go to the Oxford English Dictionary, every time. If a word isn't listed in the OED, then it isn't an English word and only then will the courts refer to another dictionary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
I don’t believe it only has the limited definition you’re indicating, though.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/rape_1?view=uk
That's the concise online version which doesn't include any past uses, the full volume would include any salient historical use, but that wouldn't be relevant either.

And here is the cabbage: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/rape_2?view=uk
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